The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 08:28PM

DarkScar wrote: »

It is a crime in Ireland yes. Why did you automatically assume we were talking about the law in a different country? You might point that out in advance next time instead of just parachuting that randomness into a discussion?
Interesting reference to my join date and post count... the fact you think that strengthens your case somehow says more about you than me to be honest.

It’s not a crime to travel for an abortion in Ireland. It’s a constitutionally protected right.

....... · 21-05-2018 08:29PM

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amcalester · 21-05-2018 08:29PM

DarkScar wrote: »

Physically blocking people campaigning is free speech now? Just so we're clear here, if an platoon of Neo-Nazis blocked a Yes march you'd be 100% backing their right to "free speech"?

He wasn’t really blocked from campaigning, he was blocked from putting a poster on one specific pole, not really comparable to neo-nazis (or anyone) blocking a march.

He, Ganley, then assaulted Yankee Boy which is definitely against the law.

So I ask again, what laws did Yankee Boy break?

Achasanai · 21-05-2018 08:30PM

Gonad wrote: »

If abortion was here back in the 80’s myself and half my friends might not be here . How many young ones will be going and aborting babies like there is no tomorrow . I know that might sound dramatic but there will be many many lives stopped before they started and it’s these lives have no voice of their own.
.

The same could be said for contraception. Or even going for a few pints instead of staying at home with the OH (or the other way around). It's the same argument that was used by priests & nuns in our 'sex education' classes in school. It doesn't make any logical sense: if you weren't born you wouldn't be any the wiser.

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:30PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

You missed the point completely.
It’s about being selfless enough to realise that even though it’s not a choice you’d make yourself, other people may feel differently, and affording them that freedom.

Plenty of Yes voters I’ve spoken to don’t personally agree with abortion, but the realise it’s selfish to force their morality on other people.
That’s what it’s about.

Whether they do or not (I've met none with that schizophrenic attitude) it's still utterly illogical. It's either right or wrong on its own merits, where the law applies isn't to be decided by the individual any more than any other crime (if it is a crime).

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:32PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

It’s not a crime to travel for an abortion in Ireland. It’s a constitutionally protected right.

Travel for an abortion in Ireland? What does that even mean? People travel around Ireland for abortions?
Yet again you are insisting this referendum is about UK abortion laws. Why?

gmisk · 21-05-2018 08:33PM

DarkScar wrote: »

Travel for an abortion in Ireland? What does that even mean? People travel around Ireland for abortions?
Yet again you are insisting this referendum is about UK abortion laws. Why?

You are clearly being deliberately obtuse, it's obvious what Susieblue meant.

Dressing gown · 21-05-2018 08:33PM

munstermagic11 wrote: »

It’s a rabbit hole that’s very much worth going down, cause it’s my experience and my vote; in much the same way it’s your experience and vote.

Introducing such a non factor as contraception to compare to a 12week old fetus, has no place in this discussion IMO (esp when you introduce the “if” option).

My wife, and more specifically my kids future, is very on my mind. And not just them, the kids that may be raped and those who could die in childbirth. It weights very very strongly on my mind.

“Would you not like other people’s wives to have a choice?”
This is a comment that I’ve seen used. Please don’t assume that people who think about the unborn don’t think about the women involved as well.

BTW choices do exist; safe sex, giving birth, even going to the UK may be an option.
I understand the “choice” discussion. It’s why I think about the choice the unborn cannot make.

Honestly, I do appreciate your feedback, and the points you raise are not being ignored (as many were already on my mind). For me personally it’s a very difficult decision, even though I do believe the Yes vote will be successful (based on the discussions I’ve viewed and been part of).

I’m genuinely sorry for you and others that feel as conflicted as you do. This isn’t really an area where there are winners and losers. I guess it’s for you to weigh up whichboption is the lesser of two evils. For me I see it clearly one way only but from what you’ve said I’m finally getting my head around the other point of view which others haven’t really succeeded in doing thus far. To me I feel from what you have posted that you are a reluctant No voter. I can imagine many in your position will abstain. There have been many lies spun in this campaign so try to back up whatever way you decide with independent sources so you feel more comfortable whatever way you decide to vote. Thanks for your input it has helped me a lot.

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DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:34PM

amcalester wrote: »

He wasn’t really blocked from campaigning, he was blocked from putting a poster on one specific pole, not really comparable to neo-nazis (or anyone) blocking a march.

He, Ganley, then assaulted Yankee Boy which is definitely against the law.

So I ask again, what laws did Yankee Boy break?

Like I already said... he wasn't blocking him campaigning... he was just blocking him doing this type of campaigning in this place so it's OK.
And if he'd gone to the next pole he would 100% been allowed to put up his poster without any physical blocking. Sure. Very believable. So convincing.

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 08:36PM

DarkScar wrote: »

Travel for an abortion in Ireland? What does that even mean? People travel around Ireland for abortions?
Yet again you are insisting this referendum is about UK abortion laws. Why?

I’ll spell it out for you, seeing as you are being intentionally obtuse.

Irish citizens have a constitutional right to travel to another jurisdiction to procure an abortion.

This is Irish abortion law. Irish abortion law states that citizens have a right to travel to avail of abortion services from foreign healthcare systems.

Do you understand now?

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 08:36PM

DarkScar wrote: »

Nope, blocking people going about their business means you are the one breaking the law. You cannot enforce your illegality by pushing people over when you block their passage.

beardy guy was doing nothing illegal. There is nothing illegal about standing in the street. Ganley responded to a guy standing in front of him by assaulting him with a ladder. That you refuse to see that says a lot about the honesty of the No side.

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:37PM

gmisk wrote: »

You are clearly being deliberately obtuse, it's obvious what Susieblue meant.

We are discussing a referendum on abortion in Ireland, which is currently a crime. Her answer was that it isn't a crime in England.
Excuse me if I try to be very precise when I'm dealing with such a bizarre series of non-sequitur responses.

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:39PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I’ll spell it out for you, seeing as you are being intentionally obtuse.

Irish citizens have a constitutional right to travel to another jurisdiction to procure an abortion.

This is Irish abortion law. Irish abortion law states that citizens have a right to travel to avail of abortion services from foreign healthcare systems.

Do you understand now?

There is no evidence anywhere that I don't understand this. Maybe you don't? Is that why you are asking?
We were discussing abortion being a crime. You decided for some utterly bonkers reason that we were discussing abortion in the UK so it isn't a crime. Out of the blue. Why did you do that?

erica74 · 21-05-2018 08:40PM

I think that maybe it would be a good idea... for some of the posters here... to engage in some lovely enjoyable sex... just for the purposes of orgasm... give it a whirl... you'll then understand why so many people have sex for enjoyment and a smile on their face and not procreation.

It's 2018.

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:41PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

beardy guy was doing nothing illegal. There is nothing illegal about standing in the street. Ganley responded to a guy standing in front of him by assaulting him with a ladder. That you refuse to see that says a lot about the honesty of the No side.

If you're going about your business and somebody intentionally physically blocks you there is no assault. It is simply not possible.
He wasn't standing in the street either. He even bloody said what he was doing!

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 08:41PM

DarkScar wrote: »

There is no evidence anywhere that I don't understand this. Maybe you don't? Is that why you are asking?
We were discussing abortion being a crime. You decided for some utterly bonkers reason that we were discussing abortion in the UK so it isn't a crime. Out of the blue. Why did you do that?

I’m not discussing abortion in the UK.
I’m discussing our constitution.
Our constitution states that it is NOT a CRIME to travel to other jurisdictions to procure an abortion.
That is part of Irish abortion law.

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 08:42PM

erica74 wrote: »

I think that maybe it would be a good idea... for some of the posters here... to engage in some lovely enjoyable sex... just for the purposes of orgasm... give it a whirl... you'll then understand why so many people have sex for enjoyment and a smile on their face and not procreation.

It's 2018.

you asking?

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:43PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I’m not discussing abortion in the UK.
I’m discussing our constitution.
Our constitution states that it is NOT a CRIME to travel to other jurisdictions to procure an abortion.
That is part of Irish abortion law.

So? Is it a crime in Ireland or not? Which is what we are discussing? Obviously the law specifically states we do not enforce other countries' laws.
Is that confusing for you? Do you think we enforce every other country's laws here?

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 08:43PM

DarkScar wrote: »

If you're going about your business and somebody intentionally physically blocks you there is no assault. It is simply not possible.
He wasn't standing in the street either. He even bloody said what he was doing!

you should try testing that in a court. pack a bag first though

gandalf · 21-05-2018 08:45PM

If I didn't live here I'd be having a right old laugh at the state and antics of the no campaign. They are like the most outrageous characters from Father Ted on crack cocaine.

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 08:46PM

DarkScar wrote: »

So? Is it a crime in Ireland or not? Which is what we are discussing? Obviously the law specifically states we do not enforce other countries' laws.
Is that confusing for you? Do you think we enforce every other country's laws here?

No sorry, you are willfully misunderstanding, it’s nothing to do with enforcing other countries laws.

Our constitution gives citizens the constitutional right to travel to procure an abortion. That’s the point I’m making. It is not a crime in Ireland to travel to do that.

erica74 · 21-05-2018 08:46PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you asking?

:pac:

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:47PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you should try testing that in a court. pack a bag first though

Try standing in front of a Guard or ambulance for a while and see does anybody try to move you while you demand that it's your personal right to stand where you like... telling people you are blocking them in case there was any confusion!

gmisk · 21-05-2018 08:48PM

gandalf wrote: »

If I didn't live here I'd be having a right old laugh at the state and antics of the no campaign. They are like the most outrageous characters from Father Ted on crack cocaine.

I know what you mean believe me!

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 08:50PM

DarkScar wrote: »

Try standing in front of a Guard or ambulance for a while and see does anybody try to move you while you demand that it's your personal right to stand where you like... telling people you are blocking them in case there was any confusion!

Ganley is not a guard or an ambulance.

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:50PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

No sorry, you are willfully misunderstanding, it’s nothing to do with enforcing other countries laws.

Our constitution gives citizens the constitutional right to travel to procure an abortion. That’s the point I’m making. It is not a crime in Ireland to travel to do that.

So what? The discussion was about if somebody thinks something is a crime then why would they want other people to have the option of committing that crime? Our constitution specifically protects people from doing whatever the hell they like in other countries. There is no contradiction no matter how much you are grasping for one.

veronymus · 21-05-2018 08:50PM

/\/ollog wrote: »

Cheers. I did a Google and seems a few others have the same problem.

The register, at least for my council is ridiculously hard to search. It does not, for instance, recognise my EIRCODE. Nor can I search by road name. I find that doing a general search works best. For instance, I live in a place called the 'Orchard' and I just used orchard as a search term and it gives a result. Failing that, you could give your council a call.

DarkScar · 21-05-2018 08:51PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Ganley is not a guard or an ambulance.

So what? Guards and ambulances are subject to the law (allegedly) just like everybody else. Are you claiming the law does not apply to them?

Ave Sodalis · 21-05-2018 08:51PM

DarkScar wrote: »

So what? The discussion was about if somebody thinks something is a crime then why would they want other people to have the option of committing that crime? Our constitution specifically protects people from doing whatever the hell they like in other countries. There is no contradiction no matter how much you are grasping for one.

Try going to the UK and murdering someone. See how you get on when you get back here. Or better, try going with someone looking for euthanasia

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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