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The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 249 ✭✭juanjo


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Let's say aborting exists. You get pregnant and don't want it so you have an abortion. Leta say you get pregnant again. Do you have another abortion? What if it happens a third fourth or fifth time? More abortions?

    Have you heard about cervical and uterus related issues on multiple abortions? They can make a woman unable to carry out a successful pregnancy. This (and other) information is provided when a woman decides to interrupt hers, for whatever motive.

    Abortion is not contraception. You should inform yourself before making those statements.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,048 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Mr.H wrote: »
    My comment isn't suppose to be mean. My comment is to show that abortion isn't the answer.

    Let's say aborting exists. You get pregnant and don't want it so you have an abortion. Leta say you get pregnant again. Do you have another abortion? What if it happens a third fourth or fifth time? More abortions?

    Because that is what is being talked about. You don't wanna go through a pregnancy and that bus fair enough. But what does that mean? You talk as if you can get pregnant so early then surely you would just keep getting pregnant.

    By the way you could always have your tubes tied or your husband could get the snip.

    Abortion won't fix your issue

    I'll just quote a post I made regarding tubal ligation in the last thread here... and add in that even tubal ligation and vasectomies aren't 100% effective.
    I tried to do this btw.

    After I gave birth to my son four years ago, I sat down with my a GP (not my regular GP because he wasn't available) and asked her to refer me for tubal ligation. She hmm'd and haw'd, said they wouldn't do it. I asked her to write the letter anyway, that I had 4 children and I didn't want another one because 1) we couldn't afford another one, my husband was on a CE scheme at the time and what we were being paid a week (and the 20 euro extra we were supposed to get, but actually went on taxes, which I'm not complaining about btw, but don't tell a familly they'll get 20 euro extra a week in their payment for taking up this government scheme and then take it away) barely covered feeding and clothing four kids as well as paying bills and rent, car insurance, tax, nct fee's petrol etc to get my husband to and from this job, I could go on. 2) I wasn't prepared to have my abdomen cut open giving birth again because it was the prescribed course if someone had already had two ceserean births. 3) I had actually just started applying for college again after spending 5 years at home looking after kids and wanted to better myself so we could actually afford to live.
    4) I had had my lot. 4 kids in 5 years. I didn't want any more kids and neither did my husband. It would mean moving house and changing car, WHICH WE COULDN'T AFFORD!

    So.... anyways. This GP sent off the letter and it took a year for me to be seen in the hospital for my appt. Off I went and sat down with the consultant. I asked for tubal ligation and he said.... No. You're too young. What if you change your mind. He actually said 'What if something happens between you and your husband and you meet someone else and want kids with them?'. Just get the mirena in.

    I told him I didn't want the mirena in, I explained all of the above points 1-4 with him. I told him I wanted a permanent solution to birth control and I was very sure of my decision and would he please tie my tubes.

    He agreed. BUT. He wanted me to lose 4 stone in weight before he did it, because he thought there were too many risks to doing the laprascope proceedure on obese women. We agreed that I would try to lose the weight and I would see him again in nine months.

    That was in March of 2016. In April of 2016 my contraception failed and I became pregnant.

    So, it's all well and good to say 'permanent measures of contraception' but it's all a load of **** anyway because currently they put so many barriers in place for people looking for these permanent measures of contraception.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Calina wrote:
    And supposing she was raped?


    Suppose she wasn't.

    I am not talking about those kind of issues. I've already said on here multiple times that I agree with certain circumstances. The issue is the flippant cases.

    Flippant.

    You think that people should flippantly be forced to be parents because they were too irresponsible to be granted an abortion under your simplistic moral code?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Calina wrote:
    And supposing she was raped?


    Suppose she wasn't.

    I am not talking about those kind of issues. I've already said on here multiple times that I agree with certain circumstances. The issue is the flippant cases.
    How is ‘I am not in a position to go through pregnancy and childbirth’ flippant?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭Nettle Soup


    iguana wrote: »
    1980s parents? Their children are in their 30s and mainly Yes voters.

    I meant I blame those parents that had kids that remember 1983. Those kids would be mid 40s now. The only people I have met in mid 40s or early 50s voting No are doing so because their parents listened to Rome and took a hard stance in 1983 and filled their kids with "murdering babies" nonsense.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Calina wrote:
    Because I do not think you can make this assertion if you have no possibility of ever experiencing pregnancy.


    I am male and don't assume. We all have issues that we all have dealt with. I don't want to discuss personal matters on a forum but I very much understand.

    You are male and presumably cannot get pregnant. But reserve the right to tell someone who can get pregnant that abortion shouldn't exist.

    Abortion exists. It is always a tragedy. People going on about social abortions or flippant cases cannot see the tragedy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Any woman who thinks abortion is a viable alternative to contraception will change her mind after her first.

    There is nothing pleasant about having your cervix forced open and bleeding for days afterwards.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Calina wrote: »
    You are male and presumably cannot get pregnant. But reserve the right to tell someone who can get pregnant that abortion shouldn't exist.

    Abortion exists. It is always a tragedy. People going on about social abortions or flippant cases cannot see the tragedy.
    Ok so no woman should have any say in a matter impacting men?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Calina wrote: »
    You are male and presumably cannot get pregnant. But reserve the right to tell someone who can get pregnant that abortion shouldn't exist.

    Abortion exists. It is always a tragedy. People going on about social abortions or flippant cases cannot see the tragedy.
    Ok so no woman should have any say in a matter impacting men?

    Come back to me when it is a constitutional amendment restricting men's healthcare under discussion and before that maybe read the conversation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 366 ✭✭Monkey09


    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Calina wrote: »
    Come back to me when it is a constitutional amendment restricting men's healthcare under discussion and before that maybe read the conversation.
    You're fired up aren't ye? How about a civil discussion?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,048 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.

    Unrestricted access to abortion up to 12 weeks is the solution for rape victims, as stated by both the JOC and the CA. It's so that women who have been raped do not have to disclose the reason for their abortion to their care provider to avoid re-traumatising them. Not everyone wants to report their rape, or can't report for fear of repercussions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.

    It impacts on medical consent for women. This is not just about abortions and yes in face in many cases, it relates to healthcare.

    What is on the table now is repeal of the 8th amendment. After that comes legislation which you can still lobby against. You are not voting on the proposed legislation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    You're fired up aren't ye? How about a civil discussion?

    A lot of women are angry, we've been discussed and debated and shamed and judged for making personal decisions that have nothing to do with anyone else.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    eviltwin wrote:
    Any woman who thinks abortion is a viable alternative to contraception will change her mind after her first.


    Yet women will consider having a second if needed. When there are other options


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    Mr.H wrote: »
    eviltwin wrote:
    Any woman who thinks abortion is a viable alternative to contraception will change her mind after her first.


    Yet women will consider having a second if needed. When there are other options

    Such as? Getting sepsis while waiting for a miscarriage to complete?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,745 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.
    What is ‘on the table’ is not actually on the table: we are not voting on it.

    Meanwhile I don’t get a say in my healthcare because i’m Pregnant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Yet women will consider having a second if needed. When there are other options

    'if needed'.

    So, I've already told you, I am using contraception, I cannot put a child up for adoption, it's not an option for me, so if I were to get pregnant again, keeping in mind, we cannot afford a FIFTH child, what are my other options?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    eviltwin wrote: »
    A lot of women are angry, we've been discussed and debated and shamed and judged for making personal decisions that have nothing to do with anyone else.
    And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child is aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    From what i have read about what doctors say about this is that the 8th has never prevented him/her from giving the woman the care she needs.

    80% of the doctors in the Irish Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists support Repeal and confirm that the 8th hinders the care they can offer women.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,051 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.

    Then Vote Yes, and fight for the right legislation afterwards, and on a continual ongoing basis at every general election if necessary.
    A No vote and this won't be touched for a generation, 35 years going by the last time.

    Again, if you genuinely feel so strongly about the rape & health cases, then Vote Yes.

    This "I'd love to vote Yes, but they've gone too far and so I will vote No even though it means the bits I'm positive towards will never happen" attitude is the most pointless.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,448 ✭✭✭✭Cupcake_Crisis


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.

    It absolutely, undeniably is about those women!! You cannot pretend that these women, and families do not exist and are having tragedy inflicted upon them by the 8th!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Yet women will consider having a second if needed. When there are other options

    and what does that tell you? It tells me that the abortion is the least worst option.

    I had an abortion, it wasnt somethibg I wanted to do and the experience was awful but it was the best option at the time. I'd imagine it's similar for most women.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You're fired up aren't ye? How about a civil discussion?

    A lot of women are angry, we've been discussed and debated and shamed and judged for making personal decisions that have nothing to do with anyone else.

    I am not fired up or even angry. I am resigned to the fact that there are people who do not understand. Cannot understand. Will not understand.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Mr.H wrote:
    Just because you don't want to get pregnant is not a good reason for abortion to exist.


    I don't want to be pregnant. I don't want children to the point it makes me feel ill thinking about it. I cannot get my tubes tied. Adoption is not an option for me. Myself and my partner use multiple forms of contraception, however there is still a risk. What should I do if I fall pregnant.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child is aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.

    Everyone has a voice in the debate but when it comes down to the actual procedure that's between the woman and her doctor.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,118 ✭✭✭✭spookwoman


    Monkey09 wrote: »
    This referendum is not about whether women who were victims of rape should be allowed to access an abortion. It is about whether any woman, for any reason, can access this service. That is not health care. If we want to legislate for these very sad and traumatic cases, we should have a referendum on those questions. Not unlimited access to abortion for all. What is on the table now is far too extreme.

    So forcing a woman to have a child against her will is not going to affect her physical and mental health?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    And what input should men have, if any, in the debate? Men still have the vote. If a man's child is aborted against his will...tough sh*t basically i suppose.

    A mans wife or daughter could also be victim to these barbaric laws.

    Unfortunately the only argument made on the matter is the one where the woman aborts his child against his will.
    The one where his control over the situation is taken away.

    The one where his wife or daughter has her health or even her life compromised is never bothered with or spoken about by No voters. That gets forgotten about.

    I feel sorry for any man whose partner has an abortion when he wants to keep the child, but the deciding vote should always be with the woman.


This discussion has been closed.
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