The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

Zubeneschamali · 21-05-2018 12:03PM

volchitsa wrote: »

as a random anecdote it sounds very like "I met a man with two pints and he said"

My nephew climbed out of his bucket in the abortion clinic! But I am totally on the fence and voting Yes!

robarmstrong · 21-05-2018 12:03PM

Not gonna be a dick here but if that's true, why's it in Polish? Genuinely curious is all.

antiskeptic · 21-05-2018 12:04PM

AtomicHorror wrote: »

And with that you dismiss the pain, fears and sadness of thousands. Oh but "love both".

I'm not inclined to suppose that's all that's going on.

AtomicHorror · 21-05-2018 12:08PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm not inclined to suppose that's all that's going on.

You're inclined to assume a great deal without evidence and in doing so you are being needlessly unkind.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 12:08PM

Zubeneschamali wrote:

And 100% untrue.

Absolutely not

SusieBlue wrote:

I think abortions like that are of miniscule proportions and am perfectly ok with them. People that reckless shouldn't be trusted with children.

Really? You think it's only a tiny percentage of people who have abortions like that?

Zubeneschamali · 21-05-2018 12:09PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

apparently this is latest stunt by the No campaign. They are handing these out to children in Greystones

The note inside is in Polish.

In Poland, pro-life activists have taken to calling the models “Little Johnny,” as they are often given to women who are considering abortion, but are not aware of the degree of development of the tiny human being whose life is at risk.

smokingman · 21-05-2018 12:09PM

I'm finding my old "Tá" badge from the SSM referendum pretty powerful in making the antichoice side turn away from me in disgust while out walking at lunch

Sure are a lot of the love boats crowd outo though

juanjo · 21-05-2018 12:09PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Not gonna be a dick here but if that's true, why's it in Polish? Genuinely curious is all.

Isn't polish the 2nd most spoken language in ireland? There you go.

Mr.H · 21-05-2018 12:10PM

Calina wrote:

As a general note, it is very easy to condemn people for 'lifestyle' decisions when it isn't your life at play.

Why not?

We condemn the castration of women's a certain ethnic group (and rightfully so). So why can't we condemn lifestyles?

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 12:11PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

Not gonna be a dick here but if that's true, why's it in Polish? Genuinely curious is all.

No idea but Poland also has a very strong anti abortion lobby so they could have sent them over. Would that count as an illegal foreign donation?

iguana · 21-05-2018 12:12PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

apparently this is latest stunt by the No campaign. They are handing these out to children in Greystones

Are they trying to provoke a negative reaction? If someone tried to give one of those to my child I'd have a hard time reacting with dignity.

Leroy42 · 21-05-2018 12:13PM

I think the point being made is that this is very unlikely to be being handed out to kids in Greystones as was suggested.

Even if they were sent over, why not simply replace the polish with english. Would seem an awful waste of time and resources to be giving these out on the basis that some of the kids/parents might read polish.

erica74 · 21-05-2018 12:14PM

My Together for Yes stuff came today, t-shirt, badge and car sticker. I'll be wearing my t-shirt every day this week, although not to vote on Friday. My badge is on my bag and the sticker on my husband's van. I want every woman in Ireland who has had an abortion or may need an abortion to know that they have support and I am standing with them.

4 days left now. I wonder will the No side ever manage to come up with a credible fact based reason why our women should continue to be affected by a piece of outdated barbaric law.

Repeal the 8th. Vote Yes if you want the law to change.
If you vote no, nothing will change and all of those "hard" cases will continue to be exported outside of Ireland because some believe their morals are more important than full Healthcare for women in Ireland.

robarmstrong · 21-05-2018 12:14PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Absolutely not

Really? You think it's only a tiny percentage of people who have abortions like that?

You're letting your friends attitude lead you to the unconscious assumption that it is not a tiny percentage of people who have abortions like that.

You need to see above your friend and be realistic in that she could be one of the few of a many.

SusieBlue · 21-05-2018 12:15PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Absolutely not

Really? You think it's only a tiny percentage of people who have abortions like that?

You didn’t answer my question.
Do you think people who are that careless and irresponsible make good parents and do you think it’s in the best interests of innocent babies to be forced on unwilling, reckless parents similar to the person in your anecdote??

iguana · 21-05-2018 12:16PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

I blame the 1980s parents (and Rome)!!

1980s parents? Their children are in their 30s and mainly Yes voters.

Zubeneschamali · 21-05-2018 12:16PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Even if they were sent over, why not simply replace the polish with english.

That would be a lot of work, vs. handing them out the way they are.

Calina · 21-05-2018 12:20PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Calina wrote:

As a general note, it is very easy to condemn people for 'lifestyle' decisions when it isn't your life at play.

Why not?

We condemn the castration of women's a certain ethnic group (and rightfully so). So why can't we condemn lifestyles?

Are you equating abortion to female genital mutilation and calling the latter castration?

And suggesting both are lifestyle choices?

Really?

Timberrrrrrrr · 21-05-2018 12:21PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Why not?

We condemn the castration of women's a certain ethnic group (and rightfully so). So why can't we condemn lifestyles?

There are over 1000 deaths in ireland related to alcohol

There are over over 6000 tobacco related seats per year in Ireland.

There are 7000 living people a year you could be concentrating on saving rather than a clump of cells that has that potential to be a living person.

Alcohol and tobacco are definitely lifestyle choices that kill, what are you doingbit help save those 7000 people?

jibber5000 · 21-05-2018 12:21PM

Annabella1 wrote: »

For those undecided I will say simply this

Look at the numbers obstetricians,doctors and midwives calling for a yes vote

Professionals who deal with traumatised women every week facing difficult trips overseas without adequate medical support at home

The yes/no split isn't even close

1,300 doctors were signatures to Doctors for Yes out of 21,000 who work in Ireland. So I'm not sure where the Yes/no split you refer to is coming from. If you are talking about the college of obstetricians it is true that 80% are in favour but that is 80% of 79 who replied to a survey. 120 did not reply.

Anecdotally i would see it as a 50/50 split amongst my colleagues mirroring their own independent views. I think the medical opinion of advocates on both sides is skewed to mirror their own personal beliefs.

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 12:22PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think the point being made is that this is very unlikely to be being handed out to kids in Greystones as was suggested.

Even if they were sent over, why not simply replace the polish with english. Would seem an awful waste of time and resources to be giving these out on the basis that some of the kids/parents might read polish.

It was posted to a Greystones specific group on FB and they were quite clear that they were given to children. I see no reason to suspect that they were lying.

ohnonotgmail · 21-05-2018 12:24PM

jibber5000 wrote: »

1,300 doctors were signatures to Doctors for Yes out of 21,000 who work in Ireland. So I'm not sure where the Yes/no split you refer to is coming from. If you are talking about the college of obstetricians it is true that 80% are in favour but that is 80% of 79 who replied to a survey. 120 did not reply.

Anecdotally i would see it as a 50/50 split amongst my colleagues mirroring their own independent views. I think the medical opinion of advocates on both sides is skewed to mirror their own personal beliefs.

The college of obstetricians voted to support the repeal of 8th. Overwhelmingly.

Cupcake_Crisis · 21-05-2018 12:25PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Absolutely not

Really? You think it's only a tiny percentage of people who have abortions like that?

Yes. I genuinely do.

When I got pregnant I was living that lifestyle, a work hard play hard lifestyle. I was a textbook case for a “social abortion”. I wasn’t taking any form of contraception, but did use condoms. Obviously it didn’t work. Not once did abortion cross my mind. Financially, going to England wouldn’t have been a problem for me, I just chose not to. And I know in my circle of female friends I’m not alone in that. When I miscarried I was lucky in that my body did all of the work. But how easily it would have been for me to be one of those women just waiting for an infection to get bad enough.

kylith · 21-05-2018 12:28PM

Mr.H wrote: »

amcalester wrote:

Fair enough and I don't want to keep arguing the point so I'll leave it at this but it's a risk to life not serious health risk, a subtle but important distinction.

Completely agree. My words may have been rushed and not carefully considered.

SusieBlue wrote:

Anyone who makes such claims clearly has NO IDEA what is involved with seeing through a pregnancy and raising a child. They genuinely mustn't have a notion.

I know one girl in particular who has had an abortion because it just didn't suit her lifestyle. The same girl doesn't like condoms because they don't feel great. She also doesn't want to be on the pill or use a bar. She is a long time friend of mine and I love her to bits. But she is a complete idiot. Use no protection means it's only a matter of time. This is the wrong use of abortion. Might be OK to some people and I am OK with that point of view. But that's where my slight reservations come from.

She does sound like an idiot. Do you think she would be a good mother?

jibber5000 · 21-05-2018 12:30PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The college of obstetricians voted to support the 8th. Overwhelmingly.

79 responded to a survey out of 200 members - Of this 79 80% responded yes, which you are correct does constitute an overwhelming majority. However that = 64 out of 200 which is not a majority

pleas advice · 21-05-2018 12:31PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

There are over 1000 deaths in ireland related to alcohol

There are over over 6000 tobacco related seats per year in Ireland.

There are 7000 living people a year you could be concentrating on saving rather than a clump of cells that has that potential to be a living person.

Alcohol and tobacco are definitely lifestyle choices that kill, what are you doingbit help save those 7000 people?

7000 people who choose vs 7000 unborn who will never get that choice

neonsofa · 21-05-2018 12:32PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Yes. I genuinely do.

When I got pregnant I was living that lifestyle, a work hard play hard lifestyle. I was a textbook case for a “social abortion”. I wasn’t taking any form of contraception, but did use condoms. Obviously it didn’t work. Not once did abortion cross my mind. And I know in my circle of female friends I’m not alone in that. When I miscarried I was lucky in that my body did all of the work. But how easily it would have been for me to be one of those women just waiting for an infection to get bad enough.

Yup people on the no side keep referring to these "social on demand abortions" that silly irresponsible young girls will be having left right and centre.
I chose to continue with my pregnancy as a teenager because it was the decision that was right for me. Termination in the UK was an option for me. I chose not to avail of it. The 8th didn't make a difference to my own personal decision. I'd prefer to let women make the decision that is right for them and if that's a termination then they should be able to avail of it here but people don't always avail of it just because its available, They choose for themselves what is best.

Akrasia · 21-05-2018 12:32PM

kylith wrote: »

She does sound like an idiot. Do you think she would be a good mother?

A better question is, do you think she should be forced to become a mother as a punishment for her personal irresponsibility?

Leroy42 · 21-05-2018 12:33PM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Yes. I genuinely do.

When I got pregnant I was living that lifestyle, a work hard play hard lifestyle. I was a textbook case for a “social abortion”. I wasn’t taking any form of contraception, but did use condoms. Obviously it didn’t work. Not once did abortion cross my mind. And I know in my circle of female friends I’m not alone in that. When I miscarried I was lucky in that my body did all of the work. But how easily it would have been for me to be one of those women just waiting for an infection to get bad enough.

Abortion didn't cross your mind but on what basis do you think others should be denied that choice?

And even if you have a good argument, we aren't really denying anybody the choice, just making it more difficult. 3k women a year are forced to travel to obtain the service, a no vote does nothing, repeat nothing, to deal with this reality.

Cupcake_Crisis · 21-05-2018 12:34PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Yup people on the no side keep referring to these "social on demand abortions" that silly irresponsible young girls will be having left right and centre.
I chose to continue with my pregnancy as a teenager because it was the decision that was right for me. Termination in the UK was an option for me. I chose not to avail of it. The 8th didn't make a difference to my own personal decision. I'd prefer to let women make the decision that is right for them and if that's a termination then they should be able to avail of it here but people don't always avail of it just because its available, They choose for themselves what is best.

It was an option for me too, I could have afforded the trip. I just chose not to take it! This assumption that women will be lining up for abortions “just cos” boils my blood.

The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

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