8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Hannibal_Smith · 20-05-2018 08:34AM

Driving back from dundrum yesterday and I see the ballinteer area plastered with posters of a sleeping baby with a tear falling from it's eye, asking people to vote no.

At this stage I believe those campaigning for no have lost the run of themselves. They see the feotus as a baby and that is it full stop. They have absolutely no consideration for the mother or the father and absolutely no concept of the real world people are living in. It's like they have made up a fairy tale for themselves and they cannot see beyond the walls.

Do they not think that a couple might be going through a miscarriage? Do they not think that a couple may have got horrendous news about the feotus they're carrying and are struggling with a decision on what to do? Or perhaps they've recently made the decision and have come back and they see posters of crying babies?

Have the no side not educated themselves at all since the start of this campaign about the development of a feotus and what it is like at 12 weeks?

I wish they had showed more compassion and consideration towards the woman and indeed the couple in this campaign and broadened their minds just a little before putting up those horrible posters.

Zubeneschamali · 20-05-2018 08:34AM

Macha wrote: »

I learned on a debate yesterday that Pro life campaigners tried to get the 14 year jail sentence for taking abortion pills in Ireland removed but the Attorney General said the bill was unconstitutional

That is not correct. It was Bríd Smith, a left-wing AAA-PBP prochoice TD who wanted to change the penalty to a €1 fine:

Ms Smith added that, whatever TDs’ views were on abortion, “the criminalisation and sentencing of women to a sentence of this magnitude is totally unconscionable and unacceptable”.

She said she had included the €1 fine as a penalty because on two previous occasions when legislation was drafted to decriminalise abortion the legislation was deemed unconstitutional due to the Eighth Amendment.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bill-to-reduce-abortion-penalty-to-1-fine-introduced-in-d%C3%A1il-1.2995939

Just her · 20-05-2018 08:51AM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Great, but rephrasing it still does not add anything. You are still expressing a belief that has no apparent basis in reality. You see, I can only speak for myself here, but I tend to be less interesting in WHAT people believe so much as WHY they believe it. And so far I am not getting any of the latter from you.

I do not think we are all that different. I have the same outlook on life as you, I just have MORE nuance and depth to it than you. What I mean by this is that I too believe "life" begins at conception. Any humans, any cows, any dogs, any horses, and birds. But I recognise that we are talking about life in biological terms there. And nothing more.

I then go deeper than you after this point in that I recognise that although it is all "life" we treat some life different to others. We recognise some as being more valuable, or as being more of concern to us morally and ethically.

And what I do is ask WHY is that. Why do we value one form of life more than any other. I have looked at every attribute I can think of and only one seems to work. Sentience. Our moral and ethical concern for life tends to track with sentience. And you can do many thought experiments to show this is so.

The sticking point for me therefore is I see no logically or philosophically valid way to assign rights, or moral and ethical concern, to anything that therefore ENTIRELY lacks that faculty. Such as, you guessed it, a 12 week old fetus.

Can I ask you a question based on the above? You've said that we value some forms of life over others, morally and ethically, and this is because of sentience.

Can I ask of any other examples of these life forms which you don't believe are as valuable as others, please?

For example, are you talking about grass, trees, plants etc, that never ever will attain sentience?

Or are there any examples of life forms which are just about to become sentient which you see as of lesser value and which are therefore in your opinion not to be assigned rights?

Or is the foetus / baby in a unique position that we would need to consider differently to these other life forms?

I know you've said before that it is not sentient before a certain amount of weeks and you are concerned with the now, apologies if that is not exactly what you said but I believe that was the gist of it, but my question is there any other life form you would put in the same category, not assign rights to, that was just on the verge of sentience?

It wasnt me123 · 20-05-2018 08:52AM

I was at a family function yesterday and absolutely amazed that two middle aged, what I would have considered modern people, had this "it will open the flood gates" mentality. I said do you honestly think that some women make the decision to do their nails at 9am and have an abortion at 11am and the man said yes. I'm flabbergasted. They both said that they actually new people who would avail of an abortion just because. I tried to fight the Yes case but I'm afraid I failed miserably.

In my job people often say to me "its hard to know what to do". Err, no its not. I'm amazed that in such a modern country so many people think it is perfectly normal to control the reproductive organs of a a perfect stranger, just because.

Lads its feckin nuts - this referendum to me is a no brainer - I've lived all over the world, this is the most backward, brainwashed nonsense I've come across in a long time. I'm furious, sorry to rant - thankfully the youth (under 25) are mostly pro choice and are registering in their thousands. The fact that some mountainy batchelor in the wilds of Kerry or Donegal or someone I will never meet or know can control my medical treatment (or a younger woman than me) is mind blowingly stupid.

erica74 · 20-05-2018 08:52AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Driving back from dundrum yesterday and I see the ballinteer area plastered with posters of a sleeping baby with a tear falling from it's eye, asking people to vote no.

At this stage I believe those campaigning for no have lost the run of themselves. They see the feotus as a baby and that is it full stop. They have absolutely no consideration for the mother or the father and absolutely no concept of the real world people are living in. It's like they have made up a fairy tale for themselves and they cannot see beyond the walls.

Do they not think that a couple might be going through a miscarriage? Do they not think that a couple may have got horrendous news about the feotus they're carrying and are struggling with a decision on what to do? Or perhaps they've recently made the decision and have come back and they see posters of crying babies?

Have the no side not educated themselves at all since the start of this campaign about the development of a feotus and what it is like at 12 weeks?

I wish they had showed more compassion and consideration towards the woman and indeed the couple in this campaign and broadened their minds just a little before putting up those horrible posters.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer here, they don't care. They talk about "love both" but think nothing of women and families being confronted by the images and slogans the "love both" crowd use and if you question it, they say "it's the harsh reality, don't bury your head in the sand" but they "love both".

Also, I think they're well aware of what a baby actually looks like and consists of at various stages of development but need to use lies and misinformation for their campaign because, what else do they have?

Timberrrrrrrr · 20-05-2018 08:53AM

Junadl wrote: »

Your attitude from the beginning has been one of disgust and distain for children. I believe I did mention bonding in another post on this thread, pardon me. I am not saying women who don't want to become a mother aren't normal. I am saying that if a 19 year old got pregnant it would be wrong of me or society to tell her that killing her child would be for the best. I know things would work out. Life if up and down for everyone, things change all the time.

I don't know many who regret having their kids. I do know women who regret having abortions.

As a society we all agree it is wrong to go out and stab someone to death, or run someone over. We all agree rape is wrong. I think it should follow that killing an unborn baby is wrong.

Neither you nor "society" would be saying this, it would ultimately be the woman's choice! As for the whole "I KNOW things will work" you do not and cannot know this.

Let women decide for themselves.

Dressing gown · 20-05-2018 08:56AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Driving back from dundrum yesterday and I see the ballinteer area plastered with posters of a sleeping baby with a tear falling from it's eye, asking people to vote no.

At this stage I believe those campaigning for no have lost the run of themselves. They see the feotus as a baby and that is it full stop. They have absolutely no consideration for the mother or the father and absolutely no concept of the real world people are living in. It's like they have made up a fairy tale for themselves and they cannot see beyond the walls.

Do they not think that a couple might be going through a miscarriage? Do they not think that a couple may have got horrendous news about the feotus they're carrying and are struggling with a decision on what to do? Or perhaps they've recently made the decision and have come back and they see posters of crying babies?

Have the no side not educated themselves at all since the start of this campaign about the development of a feotus and what it is like at 12 weeks?

I wish they had showed more compassion and consideration towards the woman and indeed the couple in this campaign and broadened their minds just a little before putting up those horrible posters.

I agree. From what’s ive read here there are plenty of no voters living in a bubble of ideology. I felt the same way that abortion was wrong in all circumstances etc owing to the catholic upbringing that I had, but then I grew up.

Reality is very different to spouting hypothetical ideals on how to save the babies. It’s a fact that people are changing their minds when the situation effects them and their lives directly. Even the staunchest of no voters. So why do people not see beyond the tip of their nose and vote not to follow their conscience to impose their beliefs on others but to do what is best for the citizens of their country? Repealing the 8th will not force you to have an abortion or indeed does it require you to approve of abortion, but it makes abortion for those that will do it anyway safe in this country. It will spare families experiencing a pregnancy of FFA the torture of having to travel to England, and to ship the remains of their loved one home. It will put an end to the shaming of all of those Irish women that have had an abortion that have kept it secret over fear of condemnation.

The point of the constitution is to provide a fair and equal society for all. It makes a total mockery of our constitution to have an amendment that is flouted by thousands of Irish citizens every year and not enforced.

At least in the UK they have the respect for their laws and 2 women have been jailed for performing illegal abortions on themselves. But guess what? They are about to debate that law and no doubt the criminality of abortion will be removed from their laws.

It is nonsensical to suggest you are saving babies by maintaining the 8th, procuring abortion pills is only going to get easier. If anything this referendum has made more people aware of them as an option in a crisis pregnancy. Isn’t it more irresponsible to drive abortion underground unsupervised in Irish people’s homes? Well let’s hope none of your loved ones are the first victim of a death from a self administered abortion, because it will eventually happen.

Just her · 20-05-2018 08:58AM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What?

Are you that badly misinformed?

I believe the poster who posed the question is still waiting on replies from both sides to his question. He said as much a few pages back, if you'd have time to expand for him. I'd prefer if you answered the poster post directly rather than mine as mine was a response to his and I feel like his question wouldn't be answered fully if you just go by my response to him, if you get what I mean, thanks.

gmisk · 20-05-2018 09:01AM

https://www.facebook.com/Together4yes/videos/2044305905892227/
Video of savitas parents appealing for a yes vote

applehunter · 20-05-2018 09:05AM

Lia_lia wrote: »

Yes

How do they feel YES side will fare there?

Pac1Man · 20-05-2018 09:15AM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

The fact that some mountainy batchelor in the wilds of Kerry or Donegal or someone I will never meet or know can control my medical treatment (or a younger woman than me) is mind blowingly stupid.

Democracy.

You should be thankful.

Just her · 20-05-2018 09:21AM

Cabaal wrote: »

Either we repeal the 8th and allow women to have choice when it comes to their medical needs or we need to stop pissing about and properly enforce our laws and start charging women under the existing laws to ensure that they receive a criminal record for the criminal action they've taken.

Is this really the only choice you see? I think personally it is more caring and compassionate not to push for enforcement in these circumstances.

It wasnt me123 · 20-05-2018 09:23AM

Pac1Man wrote: »

Democracy.

You should be thankful.

No I'm not thankful. Noone should have any control over my medical treatment, no one especially someone who has no vested interest. It should be between me and my medical team.

So no its not democracy because some randomers beliefs carry more weight than me in my medical treatment. Thats not democracy.

paw patrol · 20-05-2018 09:24AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Driving back from dundrum yesterday and I see the ballinteer area plastered with posters of a sleeping baby with a tear falling from it's eye, asking people to vote no.

At this stage I believe those campaigning for no have lost the run of themselves. They see the feotus as a baby and that is it full stop. .

it's that the whole argument why people are against abortion , the whole life death thing?
Are you that self absorbed in your own opinion that you don't get that?

It's not that people voting NO says there are no valid arguments on the Yes side but they value the life of the unborn child and see that as extremely important.
I'm voting no for that precise reason...

As others have posted , if my choice was a different one I could be convinced to repeal the 8th but it's not the choice on offer.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Do they not think that a couple might be going through a miscarriage? Do they not think that a couple may have got horrendous news about the feotus they're carrying and are struggling with a decision on what to do? Or perhaps they've recently made the decision and have come back and they see posters of crying babies?

surely your point proves the value of the the unborn child and the reason why a lot of people feel strongly on this matter. You are talking about people in difficult circumstances but the reality is that abortion is much more than just those cases. You know that but your post ignores that,.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Have the no side not educated themselves at all since the start of this campaign about the development of a feotus and what it is like at 12 weeks?

You'll find the Yes side are trying to play this down , as are you.
Dr Boylan seemed stumped for words the other night when challenged on this by another doctor.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I wish they had showed more compassion and consideration towards the woman and indeed the couple in this campaign and broadened their minds just a little before putting up those horrible posters.

Lets say for this argument I agreed with your point which I don't. The Yes side have utter sanitised what an abortion is and what it entales so you can say it's both sides of the argument.

Now my personal view is that people need to know what they are voting for exactly what they want or don't want in Ireland.
Because without showing the reality or the emotional side of the debate , the whole thing becomes a nonsense. You can't have a fluffy campaign on something like this , well you can but that's just dumbing down the argument and avoiding the tough conversations.
That goes for all sides.

nice_guy80 · 20-05-2018 09:24AM

Pac1Man wrote: »

Democracy.

You should be thankful.

I will be next Saturday when the result is announced

Annabella1 · 20-05-2018 09:27AM

Looking at the two polls today in times and sbp this looks Home and hosed for yes
Campaign will get nasty next week from no side and we can expect a few more Ben Bulben stunts
There are no new arguments at this stage and an aggressive no stance will just bring out the yes vote on the day

It wasnt me123 · 20-05-2018 09:30AM

what are the polls? Do you have the figures handy please

Pac1Man · 20-05-2018 09:32AM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

So no its not democracy because some randomers beliefs carry more weight than me in my medical treatment. Thats not democracy.

Nobody is voting for "your medical treatment". It's not only about you.

Atoms for Peace · 20-05-2018 09:32AM

Anybody else come across no campaigners with placards at the side of roads looking for honks?
Really these people have no decorum.

January · 20-05-2018 09:33AM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

Anybody else come across no campaigners with placards at the side of roads looking for honks?
Really these people have no decorum.

The yes side are doing it too... Its a great visibility tool so no wonder the no side are also using it.

Cupcake_Crisis · 20-05-2018 09:35AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I was told recently that miscarriages and still births under 6 months are given neither birth or death certificates, is that correct?

Does the church undertake funerals in these circumstances?

To the best of my knowledge that’s true. If you miscarry or deliver before 24 weeks or the baby weighs less than 500grms you can get nothing. After 24 weeks if you have a still birth you can register as a still birth but don’t get a birth/death certificate. As such, the baby can’t be christened and can’t be buried on holy ground.

It wasnt me123 · 20-05-2018 09:37AM

Pac1Man wrote: »

Nobody is voting for "your medical treatment". It's not only about you.

No its about 50% of the population, the females. Why does some randomer have any say in anybody elses medical treatment - its ludicrous.

I have no say in your medical treatment and nor should I. Why should you have any say in anyone elses medical treatment.

Cupcake_Crisis · 20-05-2018 09:39AM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Driving back from dundrum yesterday and I see the ballinteer area plastered with posters of a sleeping baby with a tear falling from it's eye, asking people to vote no.

At this stage I believe those campaigning for no have lost the run of themselves. They see the feotus as a baby and that is it full stop. They have absolutely no consideration for the mother or the father and absolutely no concept of the real world people are living in. It's like they have made up a fairy tale for themselves and they cannot see beyond the walls.

Do they not think that a couple might be going through a miscarriage? Do they not think that a couple may have got horrendous news about the feotus they're carrying and are struggling with a decision on what to do? Or perhaps they've recently made the decision and have come back and they see posters of crying babies?

Have the no side not educated themselves at all since the start of this campaign about the development of a feotus and what it is like at 12 weeks?

I wish they had showed more compassion and consideration towards the woman and indeed the couple in this campaign and broadened their minds just a little before putting up those horrible posters.

I noticed that myself yesterday driving through Dundrum. The posters were heavily in the no sides favour.

One that I’ve only noticed recently that bothers me the most is a small diamond shaped one that just says ‘6 months is horrific’ well, yes. Yes it is. Undoubtedly. But that’s not what’s being proposed.

Leroy42 · 20-05-2018 09:40AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge that’s true. If you miscarry or deliver before 24 weeks or the baby weighs less than 500grms you can get nothing. After 24 weeks if you have a still birth you can register as a still birth but don’t get a birth/death certificate. As such, the baby can’t be christened and can’t be buried on holy ground.

So neither the state or the church recognise before 24 weeks as the same as a born person.

So what are we all arguing about? Nobody thinks the foetus is a person before this so the argument is totally mute.

Atoms for Peace · 20-05-2018 09:42AM

January wrote: »

The yes side are doing it too... Its a great visibility tool so no wonder the no side are also using it.

Great visibility for showing them up for what they are, to take a rather blunt quote from the sopranos thread "classless pieces of ****".

Cabaal · 20-05-2018 09:43AM

Alan_P wrote: »

If you really want to protect Irish babies, those 9 babies a day being aborted in the UK are an abomination
We need to think creatively
mandatory pregnancy tests every month for every fertile women.
Urine tests in the ports and airports.
Mandatory reporting of positive pregnancy tests.
Some simple obvious measures and we truly sanctify life. Why don't those babies matter ?

what you are proposing is against our Constitution.

Do you think pro life groups should lobby to repeal the right to travel to obtain abortions and the right to info on abortions (something that the people of Ireland voted to allow).

What about charging women inline with our laws for illegal abortions? Nothing like 14 years in jail for a women who illegally uses abortion pills.

If a fetus is so important why don't they want to even enforce our existing law.....are they scared there will be massive public backlash?

Cupcake_Crisis · 20-05-2018 09:46AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So neither the state or the church recognise before 24 weeks as the same as a born person.

So what are we all arguing about? Nobody thinks the foetus is a person before this so the argument is totally mute.

Basically yeah! My 14 week miscarriage was recognized as a baby by neither, but if I had if needed an abortion at 10 weeks I’d have been a murderer.

Before 1995 you got absolutely nothing for a still birth either. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/miscarriage_and_stillbirth/registering_stillbirth.html

Dressing gown · 20-05-2018 09:54AM

Just on the 12 week point and if the foetus is left alone it will turn into a sentient being ergo you are destroying a life point (this is a no argument in refuting I don’t agree with it).

There is a very large piece of the equation that is ignored in that logic.

If the foetus was left alone it would not become a sentient human being. It would die.

It’s existence is at the mercy of its mother. Everything the mother does has an impact on the foetus. If the mother drinks alcohol. If the mother doesn’t drink at all. If the mother hunger strikes. If the mother is a drug addict. If the mother is physically abused. If the mother suffers from mental illness. If the mother eats the wrong foods. If the mother takes the wrong medication. If the mother self harms. If the mother falls off her bike. If the mother is ill. If the mother is stressed. If the mother is healthy. If the mother dies.

The mother. You forget about the mother.

Cabaal · 20-05-2018 09:58AM

Cupcake_Crisis wrote: »

Basically yeah! My 14 week miscarriage was recognized as a baby by neither, but if I had if needed an abortion at 10 weeks I’d have been a murderer.

Before 1995 you got absolutely nothing for a still birth either. http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/miscarriage_and_stillbirth/registering_stillbirth.html

So its a "person" when it suits there agenda basically,
I don't see them campaigning for funerals etc for miscarriages at 5, 10, 14 weeks. Nor are they campaigning for any time off for a women to recover from a miscarriage. They've had 35 years to do this and they've done zip!

Kurtosis · 20-05-2018 10:09AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Apparently the latest opinion poll is using data that is not the most recent, most recent remains the Irish Times poll.

Irish Times poll, over the 14th and 15th May.
The Red C/Behaviour and attitudes poll from the 3rd May to the 15th May.

The Red C poll for the Sunday Business Post was conducted between May 10th and 16th.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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