8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 02:11AM

Junadl wrote: »

No you are picking it up wrong. You said the words breeding mares, I am saying society is telling women they are a failure if they become a mother, is that not true? I said also that women do not bond with the baby until the baby is born or maybe not even until weeks/months later. That is absolutely normal. I would not say a woman is a failure for feeling that way, no way.

I said breeding mares because you seem to think all women should be mothers. There is far more to life than having children.
I don't know where you get the idea of society telling women they are failures if they become a mother. What I have found is people like you have this notion that women who don't want children are not normal.
You said nothing about bonding issues I was the one who brought that up.

Junadl wrote: »

What I am saying is the disregarding of all unborn babies because some women wish to live as they please is wrong.

Are you aware of what you are writing?
You are saying that women wishing to live their lives as they please is wrong. Please explain to me why as a woman I should not be able to live my life how I want. Why am I less of a person than a man in your eyes. Why I am not entitled to be treated equally?

SusieBlue · 20-05-2018 02:14AM

Junadl wrote: »

No matter what angle you come from, taking the right to life from my future grandchildren, based on women who want to **** around and not take responsibility for their actions, isn't sitting right. Why should the taxpayer have to fund your irresponsible actions?

Didn’t take long for the mask to slip. Disgusting comment from yourself right there. Not much #LoveBoth about it.

Do you think careless, irresponsible people make great, loving, stable parents? If not, why are you forcing innocent babies on them?
That’s not very pro-life of you either.

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 02:16AM

gctest50 wrote: »

This is not a new thing

For decades ( because loveboats )women in Ireland took the plane or ferry

Are ye having a good night, ye?

veronymus · 20-05-2018 02:16AM

Junadl wrote: »

No matter what angle you come from, taking the right to life from my future grandchildren, based on women who want to **** around and not take responsibility for their actions, isn't sitting right. Why should the taxpayer have to fund your irresponsible actions?

How will repealing the 8th amendment deny your grandchildren the right to life of your grandchildren Junadl? Are you suggesting your children will be forced to terminate their pregnancies?

And what do you mean by irresponsible actions precisely?

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 02:19AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Didn’t take long for the mask to slip. Disgusting comment from yourself right there. Not much #LoveBoth about it.

Do you think careless, irresponsible people make great, loving, stable parents? If not, why are you forcing innocent babies on them?
That’s not very pro-life of you either.

Looking back over that first post the quote below seems very off to me

Junadl wrote: »

But maybe if we didn't view a mother in the disgusting way you have described, then more women would embrace motherhood instead of feeling like a failure?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 02:23AM

spookwoman wrote: »

I said breeding mares because you seem to think all women should be mothers. There is far more to life than having children.
I don't know where you get the idea of society telling women they are failures if they become a mother. What I have found is people like you have this notion that women who don't want children are not normal.
You said nothing about bonding issues I was the one who brought that up.

Are you aware of what you are writing?
You are saying that women wishing to live their lives as they please is wrong. Please explain to me why as a woman I should not be able to live my life how I want. Why am I less of a person than a man in your eyes. Why I am not entitled to be treated equally?

Your attitude from the beginning has been one of disgust and distain for children. I believe I did mention bonding in another post on this thread, pardon me. I am not saying women who don't want to become a mother aren't normal. I am saying that if a 19 year old got pregnant it would be wrong of me or society to tell her that killing her child would be for the best. I know things would work out. Life if up and down for everyone, things change all the time.

I don't know many who regret having their kids. I do know women who regret having abortions.

As a society we all agree it is wrong to go out and stab someone to death, or run someone over. We all agree rape is wrong. I think it should follow that killing an unborn baby is wrong.

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 02:25AM

Junadl wrote: »

............

No matter what angle you come from, taking the right to life from my future grandchildren...,.

That line would only work looking back into the past

Someones grandchild could be the next Peter Sutcliffe

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 02:26AM

Junadl wrote: »

No matter what angle you come from, taking the right to life from my future grandchildren, based on women who want to **** around and not take responsibility for their actions, isn't sitting right. Why should the taxpayer have to fund your irresponsible actions?

So through your own horror at taxpayer support for struggling women you help to create the very conditions that cause the abortions you claim to abhor?

For thousands of Irish women a crisis pregnancy is the result of a random failure of birth control. No irresponsibility at all.

On the other hand those who hold your views and denial of support are collectively responsible for thousands of abortions in the last 35 years.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 02:31AM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Didn’t take long for the mask to slip. Disgusting comment from yourself right there. Not much #LoveBoth about it.

Do you think careless, irresponsible people make great, loving, stable parents? If not, why are you forcing innocent babies on them?
That’s not very pro-life of you either.

I have asked what we are teaching the kids of tomorrow by telling them that you can do whatever you want and there are no consequences of your actions? With the attitude that the unborn is just worthless anyway then what would stop people using abortions as a contraceptive?

I have empathy for a woman in a crisis pregnancy and would do anything to help except tell her that killing that child will help her.

Please look at video of the lady from the Miss C case. I have said she is an example of a mothers love. Which I believe is the strongest love. Which I thought was universally said.

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 02:35AM

Junadl wrote: »

I have asked what we are teaching the kids of tomorrow by telling them that you can do whatever you want and there are no consequences of your actions? With the attitude that the unborn is just worthless anyway then what would stop people using abortions as a contraceptive?

I have empathy for a woman in a crisis pregnancy and would do anything to help except tell her that killing that child will help her.

Please look at video of the lady from the Miss C case. I have said she is an example of a mothers love. Which I believe is the strongest love. Which I thought was universally said.

Abortion is a pretty big consequence all by itself.
What you’re talking about is using children as a punishment?

What sort of message is that for children?

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 02:38AM

Junadl wrote: »

Your attitude from the beginning has been one of disgust and distain for children. I believe I did mention bonding in another post on this thread, pardon me. I am not saying women who don't want to become a mother aren't normal.

Is there a law or something to say all women have to like children? :rolleyes:
You have never mentioned bonding before because the post I replied to at the start. That was your first in this thread or any thread to do with the ref. I don't know if you have another sock puppet account maybe you have and are getting mixed up with it.

Junadl wrote: »

I am saying that if a 19 year old got pregnant it would be wrong of me or society to tell her that killing her child would be for the best. I know things would work out. Life if up and down for everyone, things change all the time.

No one including you can tell her what is for the best because it is her future and you cannot say it will work out for the best. No one can say that.

Junadl wrote: »

I don't know many who regret having their kids. I do know women who regret having abortions.

Neither do I but I know there are people out there that have regrets about having their children but they wont say because it's not very nice to tell your kid they were not wanted. People will always have regrets over different things but guess what its their life their choice.

Junadl wrote: »

As a society we all agree it is wrong to go out and stab someone to death, or run someone over. We all agree rape is wrong. I think it should follow that killing an unborn baby is wrong.

call it what you want i really dont care but its very different to stabbing someone or murdering because they have a life they are conscious and sentient.
I should inform you that I am also for the death penalty. I nearly joined the army which meant I could have ended up shooting killing someone

Simi · 20-05-2018 02:40AM

Junadl wrote: »

...what would stop people using abortions as a contraceptive?

I have empathy for a woman in a crisis pregnancy...

Saying women will use abortion as contraception and then claiming to have empathy for women in the very next sentence without a hint of irony!

White_hills · 20-05-2018 02:46AM

Junadl wrote: »

I have asked what we are teaching the kids of tomorrow by telling them that you can do whatever you want and there are no consequences of your actions? With the attitude that the unborn is just worthless anyway then what would stop people using abortions as a contraceptive?

I have empathy for a woman in a crisis pregnancy and would do anything to help except tell her that killing that child will help her.

Please look at video of the lady from the Miss C case. I have said she is an example of a mothers love. Which I believe is the strongest love. Which I thought was universally said.

I've watched the video, saw it earlier on twitter.

You're projecting a view that fits yours onto other women. That video also fits your personal prerogative so you will ask others to watch it.

I support the following:

A woman's right to have children.
A woman's right to not choose abortion.
A woman's right to support during a crisis pregnancy.
A woman's right to impartial counselling.
A woman's right to give a child up for adoption.
A woman's right not to have children.
A woman's right to have an abortion.

I support women in all circumstances because I'm compassionate enough to know that what suits one woman is not always best for another.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 02:50AM

White_hills wrote: »

I've watched the video, saw it earlier on twitter.

You're projecting a view that fits yours onto other women. That video also fits your personal prerogative so you will ask others to watch it.

I support the following:

A woman's right to have children.
A woman's right to not choose abortion.
A woman's right to support during a crisis pregnancy.
A woman's right to impartial counselling.
A woman's right to give a child up for adoption.
A woman's right not to have children.
A woman's right to have an abortion.

I support women in all circumstances because I'm compassionate enough to know that what suits one woman is not always best for another.

But when a woman becomes pregnant then there are two lives involved. So it can be her choice all those other things but women should not have the choice to kill. Just... nah. Women who are for that do not represent us all, thankfully.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 02:55AM

Simi wrote: »

Saying women will use abortion as contraception and then claiming to have empathy for women in the very next sentence without a hint of irony!

No what I am saying is that if Yes voters say an unborn baby is nothing/worthless/a clump of cells then what would stop them from getting repeat abortions? If they believe nobody is being harmed and that all that matters is themselves, then how many would they have? As mahy as they like or would there be a limit?

I have empathy for a woman who has empathy for her unborn child. For a woman who is not absolutely appalled at the thought of a baby. For a woman who is in a financially hard situation. I don't have empathy for women who want to treat a beautiful unborn baby as less than ****e on their shoe.

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 02:57AM

Junadl wrote: »

No what I am saying is that if Yes voters say an unborn baby is nothing/worthless/a clump of cells then what would stop them from getting repeat abortions? If they believe nobody is being harmed and that all that matters is themselves, then how many would they have? As mahy as they like or would there be a limit?

I have empathy for a woman who has empathy for her unborn child. For a woman who is not absolutely appalled at the thought of a baby. For a woman who is in a financially hard situation. I don't have empathy for women who want to treat a beautiful unborn baby as less than ****e on their shoe.

And once again I ask, what practical steps have you taken to turn that empathy into the real financial and physical support women with a crisis pregnancy need?

White_hills · 20-05-2018 03:00AM

Junadl wrote: »

But when a woman becomes pregnant then there are two lives involved. So it can be her choice all those other things but women should not have the choice to kill. Just... nah. Women who are for that do not represent us all, thankfully.

But the view you hold doesn't stop abortion. If it did we wouldn't be in this situation. Even if the vote fails to pass next week you won't have stopped abortion.

You've got to start coming up with some real alternatives here other than preaching about killing.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:03AM

veronymus wrote: »

How will repealing the 8th amendment deny your grandchildren the right to life of your grandchildren Junadl? Are you suggesting your children will be forced to terminate their pregnancies?

And what do you mean by irresponsible actions precisely?

If my son gets a girl pregnant in the future and let's say she is 5 months along. They have an argument and break up. She decides to abort the baby. Society has told her that is fine. We have no say as there is no protection for that baby...
or let's say something happens to the baby during pregancy due to hospital negligence, can you sue? How about if my future pregnant daughter gets knocked down by a car and the baby dies. The baby had no right to life so.. what happens then?

All protection and rights are taken from all unborn by repealing the 8th. It is idiotic.

Reject the proposals and bring in better education, better contraceptives, morning after pills. Don't let it get to the stage where innocent babies lose their protection. Even wild bird eggs will have more protection than the unborn human life.

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 03:03AM

Junadl wrote: »

Even wild bird eggs will have more protection than the unborn human life.

Knew I had heard the birds eggs excuse from somewhere

Junadl wrote: »

No what I am saying is that if Yes voters say an unborn baby is nothing/worthless/a clump of cells then what would stop them from getting repeat abortions? If they believe nobody is being harmed and that all that matters is themselves, then how many would they have? As mahy as they like or would there be a limit?

I have empathy for a woman who has empathy for her unborn child. For a woman who is not absolutely appalled at the thought of a baby. For a woman who is in a financially hard situation. I don't have empathy for women who want to treat a beautiful unborn baby as less than ****e on their shoe.

Are you going to vet /screen every woman out there so you give them your empathize.
You never answered my question
You are saying that women wishing to live their lives as they please is wrong. Please explain to me why as a woman I should not be able to live my life how I want. Why am I less of a person than a man in your eyes. Why I am not entitled to be treated equally?

White_hills · 20-05-2018 03:09AM

Junadl wrote: »

If my son gets a girl pregnant in the future and let's say she is 5 months along. They have an argument and break up. She decides to abort the baby. Society has told her that is fine. We have no say as there is no protection for that baby...
or let's say something happens to the baby during pregancy due to hospital negligence, can you sue? How about if my future pregnant daughter gets knocked down by a car and the baby dies. The baby had no right to life so.. what happens then?

All protection and rights are taken from all unborn by repealing the 8th. It is idiotic.

Reject the proposals and bring in better education, better contraceptives, morning after pills. Don't let it get to the stage where innocent babies lose their protection. Even wild bird eggs will have more protection than the unborn human life.

5 months is over the proposed 12 week limit. I support abortion but only within a certain time frame. There are time limits in place to afford such protections.

You truly have a fickle view of women if you think that they could quickly turn a wanted pregnancy into a unwanted one off the back of an argument.

Yes! We do need those and we should all be working together as women to make sure our politicians introduce them!! But until such as a time as they completely wipe out unwanted pregnancies we owe it to Irish women to look after them here.

veronymus · 20-05-2018 03:13AM

Junadl wrote: »

If my son gets a girl pregnant in the future and let's say she is 5 months along. They have an argument and break up. She decides to abort the baby. Society has told her that is fine. We have no say as there is no protection for that baby...
or let's say something happens to the baby during pregancy due to hospital negligence, can you sue? How about if my future pregnant daughter gets knocked down by a car and the baby dies. The baby had no right to life so.. what happens then?

All protection and rights are taken from all unborn by repealing the 8th. It is idiotic.

Reject the proposals and bring in better education, better contraceptives, morning after pills. Don't let it get to the stage where innocent babies lose their protection. Even wild bird eggs will have more protection than the unborn human life.

Junadl, you currently have no say in any event. It would be your hypothetical daughter in law's decision. And you cannot prevent her from travelling as that right is constitutionally protected.

And it is simply disingenuous to say that the unborn has no rights. If we vote to repeal the 8th next week, the fallback position will be the POLDPA unless and until it is repealed. The government have already indicated it will still be an offence to intentionally destroy the life of the unborn outside of whatever scheme will be drafted to allow for terminations.

Why do you think a pregnant woman being knocked down will give rise to different considerations if the 8th is gone?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:13AM

spookwoman wrote: »

Are you going to vet /screen every woman out there so you give them your empathize.
You never answered my question
You are saying that women wishing to live their lives as they please is wrong. Please explain to me why as a woman I should not be able to live my life how I want. Why am I less of a person than a man in your eyes. Why I am not entitled to be treated equally?

I do not think you are less than a man, not sure where I suggested that? Women can live as they wish as long as they are not harming others, or you know, killing their babies out of inconvenience. Nobody has answered my question, what is it teaching the kids of tomorrow? That we are placing no value or worth on a human life.

I gave the Miss C as an example as she has been in the situation many Yes voters use as a reason to abort any babies up to 12 weeks and beyond. Despite what she went through her love for her child outweighed everything else.

The Save the 8th campaign have put forward much better ideas than abortion. Like financial aid for crisis pregnancies, free childcare amongst other ideas.

The facts are that most abortions come because of poverty, so are you saying only the children of the wealthy should be born?

White_hills · 20-05-2018 03:18AM

Junadl wrote: »

I do not think you are less than a man, not sure where I suggested that? Women can live as they wish as long as they are not harming others, or you know, killing their babies out of inconvenience. Nobody has answered my question, what is it teaching the kids of tomorrow? That we are placing no value or worth on a human life.

I gave the Miss C as an example as she has been in the situation many Yes voters use as a reason to abort any babies up to 12 weeks and beyond. Despite what she went through her love for her child outweighed everything else.

The Save the 8th campaign have put forward much better ideas than abortion. Like financial aid for crisis pregnancies, free childcare amongst other ideas.

The facts are that most abortions come because of poverty, so are you saying only the children of the wealthy should be born?

That last point is pretty low and wasn't inferred anywhere here.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:19AM

White_hills wrote: »

5 months is over the proposed 12 week limit. I support abortion but only within a certain time frame. There are time limits in place to afford such protections.

You truly have a fickle view of women if you think that they could quickly turn a wanted pregnancy into a unwanted one off the back of an argument.

Yes! We do need those and we should all be working together as women to make sure our politicians introduce them!! But until such as a time as they completely wipe out unwanted pregnancies we owe it to Irish women to look after them here.

No not fickle. It would cause my hypothetical daughter in law mental distress which would fall under the abortion for health grounds. Remember she will not be assessed by an actual mental health expert. So it sounds good on paper having to be signed off by two people but none of those have to be a mental health professional.

Taking the right to live from all unborn babies surely means there is no protection for them in the situations I have described?

I am certain there are other outcomes of repealing the 8th that don't revolve around a small percentage of women.

Why are abortion pills bought online illegally in the UK if abortion is legal there?

White_hills · 20-05-2018 03:22AM

[QUOTE=Junadl;107042580

]No not fickle. It would cause my hypothetical daughter in law mental distress which would fall under the abortion for health grounds. Remember she will not be assessed by an actual mental health expert. So it sounds good on paper having to be signed off by two people but none of those have to be a mental health professional.

Taking the right to live from all unborn babies surely means there is no protection for them in the situations I have described?

I am certain there are other outcomes of repealing the 8th that don't revolve around a small percentage of women.

Why are abortion pills bought online illegally in the UK if abortion is legal there?[/QUOTE]

Can you provide links (all impartial) for the above please? Particularly interested in the stats for the last one.

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 03:29AM

Junadl wrote: »

I do not think you are less than a man, not sure where I suggested that? Women can live as they wish as long as they are not harming others, or you know, killing their babies out of inconvenience.

How do you know if someone who has an abortion is having one because its an inconvenience. You also never answered what makes you morally superior to tell people what they ca and cannot do with their lives. Were you elected as our social conscience?

Junadl wrote: »

Nobody has answered my question, what is it teaching the kids of tomorrow? That we are placing no value or worth on a human life.

The value of human life has been low for a long time we all know that. You get out of jail after a few years if you kill someone. We see more and more kids bullying others and not respecting people. This has nothing to do with the 8th.
But one thing I know if the 8th is repealed its will help women and girls no longer feel shame for having abortions. it's people like you who are responsible for that while you site on you throne passing judgement on all women. It will show future generations that women are not incubators and that they can have a choice and say in their futures.

Junadl wrote: »

I gave the Miss C as an example as she has been in the situation many Yes voters use as a reason to abort any babies up to 12 weeks and beyond. Despite what she went through her love for her child outweighed everything else.

I have never used miss c as an excuse

Junadl wrote: »

The Save the 8th campaign have put forward much better ideas than abortion. Like financial aid for crisis pregnancies, free childcare amongst other ideas.

Why do you have to wait, why have you not put those idea's into place. I would think if you are so hell bent on saving babies you would have been doing it for years.

Junadl wrote: »

The facts are that most abortions come because of poverty, so are you saying only the children of the wealthy should be born?

????? Who is saying that and where are you getting that idea from? You have some messed up ideas

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:33AM

White_hills wrote: »

Can you provide links (all impartial) for the above please? Particularly interested in the stats for the last one.

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-38960437

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 03:40AM

So let me get this straight you're voting no to give yourself control so that you can prevent your sons hypothetical future girlfriend from hypothetically having an abortion at 20 weeks pregnant if hypothetically that's what she wants to do after having a hypothetical argument with your son.

In the non-hypothetical world

The 8th doesn't give you that control as you cannot prevent her travelling to the UK.

Removing the 8th doesn't allow her to have that abortion in Ireland.

Real women with real pregnancies who have access to abortions at any point in pregnancy (e.g. Canada) virtually never choose to abort at 20 weeks except in the most dire of circumstances (e.g. fatal foetal abnormality, life threatening illness, permanent health impacts)

Real women with real pregnancies in crisis suffer daily because of the 8th amendment.

Empathy eh?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 03:41AM

spookwoman wrote: »

How do you know if someone who has an abortion is having one because its an inconvenience. You also never answered what makes you morally superior to tell people what they ca and cannot do with their lives. Were you elected as our social conscience?

The value of human life has been low for a long time we all know that. You get out of jail after a few years if you kill someone. We see more and more kids bullying others and not respecting people. This has nothing to do with the 8th.
But one thing I know if the 8th is repealed its will help women and girls no longer feel shame for having abortions. it's people like you who are responsible for that while you site on you throne passing judgement on all women. It will show future generations that women are not incubators and that they can have a choice and say in their futures.

I have never used miss c as an excuse

Why do you have to wait, why have you not put those idea's into place. I would think if you are so hell bent on saving babies you would have been doing it for years.

????? Who is saying that and where are you getting that idea from? You have some messed up ideas

You may not have but loads of Yes people I have encountered, their main arguments are rape cases. So because life is being devalued we should continue in this downward spiral? Many of us don't want to live in a society where compassion is killing a woman's' unborn child. If that is what compassion is then I want to get off this planet.

Mushy · 20-05-2018 03:41AM

The more I think about the whole thing, the angrier I get. My wife and I will be voting yes. This isn't out of wishing people to have abortions, it will be allowing people to have the choice to do so. It is the first time she will be voting.

Her family (mother/father/sister), are all voting no. This is a mix of the whole fear-mongering, abortions-for-all, condervative and god-bothering views that they hold. The excuses that are peddled out when discussing this are outrageous(IMO).

My big fear is that while we are trying to get pregnant, if the worst fears came to happen, it now scares me about the situation in Ireland. One that has been dawning daily as the referendum ticks closer. Furthermore, if worse came to worse and serious complications arose throughout a pregnancy that left doctors no option but to leave my wife struggling due to a foetal heartbeat, almost at deaths bed, I feel like I'd be in a position to ban her parents and sister from seeing her as they voted to allow this to happen. This is in no way a position I would want to be in, on a personal level, or a family level.

There is part of me that understands why people will vote no, but I can't help but feel that a larger picture is being missed here (not specifically on Boards) by some that could very easily impact closer to home than they realise.

People appear to want similar situations to continue, I just hope enough people realise it's not the way it could be!

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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