8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Junadl · 20-05-2018 12:51AM

I vote no.

I am a mother of 3 first of all. To feel life grow inside of you is amazing. To finally meet your baby at the end of your pregnancy is better than anything.

A baby is just the most innocent little thing and to think of somebody wanting to poison their baby tells me the person may need psychological help.

As a mother I could never turn to a young, let's say 19 year old and tell her aborting your baby is your best option. I believe in fate and things happen for a reason. A lot of the time, a newly pregnant woman freaks out and many do not feel any bond until that baby is in their arms. I think not letting her experience the love of her child, mother and child, surely would be worse than saying you can't handle motherhood, get rid of the baby?

Nothing is more beautiful than a mother and her baby.

I know Yes voters think the No side are too emotional but to me this is a hugely emotional topic. What, can you tell a woman, is more important than being a mother?

I think society believes motherhood is a second best option to something better.

I understand women want abortions but the majority do because of financial reasons. That is a tragedy. A mother who wants to keep her baby but can't, as a society we are letting her down and her baby.

In my eyes when a life is created it is not about just the woman anymore. It should not get to the stage of having to kill a 12 week old unborn baby. There is the morning after pill so why not educate people and supply these?

To teach the kids of tomorrow that a human life is worthless and can be thrown away if it isn't convenient, I mean is that a positive lesson? To teach the young men of tomorrow to sleep around and if the girl gets pregnant then pfft it ain't your problem. Is that not pretty soulless?

What is the message we are passing on?

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 12:58AM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Yes its horrific but thats the choice, now will you answer the question?

It's horrific - I agree. I'm not personally forcing anyone to do anything. The incidence of women becoming pregnant due to rape is likely very low. The MAP may be a good solution for them. I'm not in any way personally forcing anyone to do anything. If there's a good reason for them to have an abortion, make it available for same, but no reason obviously doesn't cut it,

Junadl · 20-05-2018 01:01AM

Also has anyone seen the video of the lady who was known as Miss C? Who said she will be voting No? She is an example of what a mothers love is. It exceeds anything, it exceeds the self, it is the most powerful love on this planet. She was made to get an abortion and still mourns the loss. She is the hard case people give as an example to vote Yes... So if she has been in that position and says No maybe someone should listen to her. Instead of using women like her to kill any baby in the first trimester and up to 6 months on health grounds.

Coillte_Bhoy · 20-05-2018 01:02AM

thee glitz wrote: »

It's horrific - I agree. I'm not personally forcing anyone to do anything. The incidence of women becoming pregnant due to rape is likely very low. The MAP may be a good solution for them. I'm not in any way personally forcing anyone to do anything. If there's a good reason for them to have an abortion, make it available for same, but no reason obviously doesn't cut it,

As in the case of rape as the question was clearly put to you?

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 01:13AM

Sorry people when I see these types of posts it makes my blood boil

Junadl wrote: »

I vote no.

I am a mother of 3 first of all. To feel life grow inside of you is amazing. To finally meet your baby at the end of your pregnancy is better than anything.

A baby is just the most innocent little thing and to think of somebody wanting to poison their baby tells me the person may need psychological help.

As a mother I could never turn to a young, let's say 19 year old and tell her aborting your baby is your best option. I believe in fate and things happen for a reason. A lot of the time, a newly pregnant woman freaks out and many do not feel any bond until that baby is in their arms. I think not letting her experience the love of her child, mother and child, surely would be worse than saying you can't handle motherhood, get rid of the baby?

Nothing is more beautiful than a mother and her baby.

Not everyone wants to be a mother and great that you think it's great but that's you. Just because you like it doesn't mean the everyone else has to

Junadl wrote: »

I know Yes voters think the No side are too emotional but to me this is a hugely emotional topic. What, can you tell a woman, is more important than being a mother?

NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A MOTHER OR HAVE CHILDREN!

Junadl wrote: »

I think society believes motherhood is a second best option to something better.

NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A MOTHER OR HAVE CHILDREN!

Junadl wrote: »

I understand women want abortions but the majority do because of financial reasons. That is a tragedy. A mother who wants to keep her baby but can't, as a society we are letting her down and her baby.

I shall repeat myself not everyone wants to be a mother or to have children. It's not always financial, it can be a number of reason. You do know some women just don't want them and they don't a have maternal side.

Junadl wrote: »

In my eyes when a life is created it is not about just the woman anymore. It should not get to the stage of having to kill a 12 week old unborn baby. There is the morning after pill so why not educate people and supply these?

Contraception will never be 100% morning after pill is not always 100% not everyone can take the morning after pill etc.
I suggest you educate yourself on these and the fact that there are reasons why a woman may not want to carry on with a pregnancy. Just because you think the sun shine's out of a babies ar#e doesnt mean everyone else has to think the same way

Junadl wrote: »

To teach the kids of tomorrow that a human life is worthless and can be thrown away if it isn't convenient, I mean is that a positive lesson? To teach the young men of tomorrow to sleep around and if the girl gets pregnant then pfft it ain't your problem. Is that not pretty soulless?
What is the message we are passing on?

Its pretty soulless to force your beliefs on another person. You will never have anything to do with the lives of these women who find themselves in a crisis situation. You stand up on your pulpit preaching but will you ever give financial support, medical support, raise that unwanted child. No you are full of words but no action and the message you seem to be passing on is that women are just breeding mares and nothing else.

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 01:19AM

Flying Fox wrote: »

The SBP, alongside it's poll, published a "wisdom of crowds" prediction where Yes wins with 56% to No's 44%. This method was spot on in the SSM ref with a week to go.

Also, the Sunday Times has a poll:

Yes 52%
No 24%
Don't know/won't vote 24%

All encouraging for Yes but not over the line yet.

"Wisdom of the Crowds" is what you employ when you don't know wtf you're doing. Not that it's without merit - it's actually pretty great. Not an actual method itself, but it gives suggestions on how you might do your analysis. It would seem to have given a much better lie of the land than the Sunday Times poll. We're not at a week to go yet, and undecideds towards the day will swing towards No, or not voting, in much larger numbers than go for Yes. This is going to be a close one, but I have No just shading it.

Junadl · 20-05-2018 01:25AM

spookwoman wrote: »

Sorry people when I see these types of posts it makes my blood boil

Not everyone wants to be a mother and great that you think it's great but buts that you and just because you like it doesn't mean the everyone else has to

NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A MOTHER OR HAVE CHILDREN!

NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A MOTHER OR HAVE CHILDREN!

I shall repeat myself not everyone wants to be a mother or to have children. It's not always financial, it can be a number of reason. You do know some women just don't want them and they don't a have maternal side.

Contraception will never be 100% morning after pill is not always 100% not everyone can take the morning after pill etc.
I suggest you educate youtrself on these and the fact that there are reason why a woman may not want to carry on with a pregnancy. Just because you think the sun shine's out of a babies ar#e doesnt mean everyone else has to think the same way

Its pretty soulless to force your beliefs on another person. You will never have anything to do with the lives of these women who find themselves in a crisis situation. You stand up on your pulpit preaching but will you ever give financial support, medical support, raise that unwanted child. No you are full of words but no action and the message you seem to be passing on is that women are just breeding mares and nothing else.

So I take it you are not a mother? Excuse me but that is rude to call a mother a breeding mare. You sound so angry.
Bloody hell. I don't think a mother is nothing else. But maybe if we didn't view a mother in the disgusting way you have described, then more women would embrace motherhood instead of feeling like a failure?

It makes my blood boil when people say a baby is a clump of cells as we all began in the same way. I think before and after having children you could be two different people. It has a huge effect on a woman when they become mothers.

I'm just saying I don't think a woman should think it's ok to diminish the life of her baby. It is a fact that abortion takes a life. How can that be right/ Where is the moral compass here? Please answer, what are we teaching the next generation?

It is soulless and cold to deny your own child to take their first breath, take their first step, deny them their right to live. To create a life and then destroy it is not something to normalise.

White_hills · 20-05-2018 01:30AM

Junadl wrote: »

I know Yes voters think the No side are too emotional but to me this is a hugely emotional topic. What, can you tell a woman, is more important than being a mother?

I think society believes motherhood is a second best option to something better.

Your post made me quite sad. I'm more than just my ability to have children.

Not all women want to be Mothers. From reading your post it looks like it is very important to you and you sound like you would be very supportive if one of your children had a crisis pregnancy but it's different strokes for different folks unfortunately.

We all have to wake up and understand that what we think is best is not always suitable for others.

I'm voting yes. No more exporting our problems.

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 01:32AM

Junadl wrote: »

So I take it you are not a mother?....... .

Did you have yours in Ireland or abroad ?

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 01:39AM

Let’s say the reason for abortion is financial.

With rents over €1000 and crèche fees approaching that, a woman needs to earn €24k after tax to just house herself & the baby and work daily.
That’s before clothes, food, transport, heat or any of the other absolute essentials.

Maternity benefit pays less then €300per week for a maximums of 26 weeks, up to two weeks of which must be taken before your due date.

There are many clear easy wins to reduce any need to seek abortion for financial reasons. They’ve been there for 35 years.

If you’re voting no because you don’t believe women should have abortions due to financial pressures then I hope you’ve spent the last 35 years relentlessly campaigning to reduce the financial pressures on young families.

If you haven’t, then please re-examine your conscience because I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself.

Coillte_Bhoy · 20-05-2018 01:40AM

thee glitz wrote: »

"Wisdom of the Crowds" is what you employ when you don't know wtf you're doing. Not that it's without merit - it's actually pretty great. Not an actual method itself, but it gives suggestions on how you might do your analysis. It would seem to have given a much better lie of the land than the Sunday Times poll. We're not at a week to go yet, and undecideds towards the day will swing towards No, or not voting, in much larger numbers than go for Yes. This is going to be a close one, but I have No just shading it.

Did the IT poll during the week no suggest the complete opposite? Maybe you should take off your blinkers?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 01:41AM

gctest50 wrote: »

Did you have yours in Ireland or abroad ?

?

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 01:44AM

Junadl wrote: »

So I take it you are not a mother? Excuse me but that is rude to call a mother a breeding mare. You sound so angry.
Bloody hell. I don't think a mother is nothing else.

No I am not, I don't want to be one either, in fact I'm not a fan of kids and I am not the only one. There are others like me out there. I am angry because of people like you telling me how I am supposed to feel. Telling me that I am supposed to continue with a pregnancy I don't want. Continue with a pregnancy that may be damaging to my health. I didn't say women were breeding mares I said
"No you are full of words but no action and the message you seem to be passing on is that women are just breeding mares and nothing else" so stop twisting words.

Junadl wrote: »

But maybe if we didn't view a mother in the disgusting way you have described, then more woman would embrace motherhood instead of feeling like a failure?

You have a very strange view of motherhood to come up with those idea's and I'd say offensive to some women out there to imply that they may be failures because they don't take to motherhood. What about women who don't bond or have PND are you implying they are failures?
What about women who cant have children what are they?

Junadl wrote: »

It makes my blood boil when people say a baby is a clump of cells as we all began in the same way. I think before and after having children you could be two different people. It has a huge effect on a woman when they become mothers.

I don't know and don't want to know but from what I have read in here having children does have a big affect on ones life and its's not always positive.

Junadl wrote: »

I'm just saying I don't think a woman should think it's ok to diminish the life of her baby. It is a fact that abortion takes a life. How can that be right/ Where is the moral compass here? Please answer, what are we teaching the next generation? It is soulless and cold to deny your own child to take their first breath, take their first step, deny them their right to live. To create a life and then destroy it is not something to normalise.

The same can be said about the woman, is it morally right to force another human to have a child against their will. What makes you morally superior to do that. What about her right to live, her right to live how she wants to.

White_hills · 20-05-2018 01:46AM

Junadl wrote: »

?

I believe the 8th amendment can impact the care you receive whilst carrying a wanted pregnancy. I don't want to type words for the other poster but I presume that this was what they were eluding to.

It's not as black and white as a crisis pregnancy.

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 01:47AM

Junadl wrote: »

?

Did you have your kids in Ireland or abroad ?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 01:50AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Let’s say the reason for abortion is financial.

With rents over €1000 and crèche fees approaching that, a woman needs to earn €24k after tax to just house herself & the baby and work daily.
That’s before clothes, food, transport, heat or any of the other absolute essentials.

Maternity benefit pays less then €300per week for a maximums of 26 weeks, up to two weeks of which must be taken before your due date.

There are many clear easy wins to reduce any need to seek abortion for financial reasons. They’ve been there for 35 years.

If you’re voting no because you don’t believe women should have abortions due to financial pressures then I hope you’ve spent the last 35 years relentlessly campaigning to reduce the financial pressures on young families.

If you haven’t, then please re-examine your conscience because I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself.

The way I see it is that there is a massive pressure on people. Living has become a massive struggle. This is the government slowly slowly suffocating everyone. Many couples can't afford to have kids at all or many women are forced to wait until their late 30s to have a child.

The cost of childcare is absolutely insane. The government should be helping with those costs. Not making it more and more impossible to even have a child.

The government are not building any houses, renting is outrageously expensive, their solution now to poverty is culling the unborn.

It makes me sad that women actually think the government gives a **** about you by offering abortion. What is happening inside your head that you think abortion is compassion?

WHAT ARE WE TEACHING THE KIDS OF TOMORROW?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 01:51AM

gctest50 wrote: »

Did you have your kids in Ireland or abroad ?

Ireland.

spookwoman · 20-05-2018 01:53AM

Very good article here for those expect women to be mothers and it's not behind a paywall https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/why-am-i-expected-to-have-children-just-because-i-m-a-woman-1.3129233

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 01:53AM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Did the IT poll during the week no suggest the complete opposite? Maybe you should take off your blinkers?

The IT poll suggested that undecideds will substantially turn into yes votes? I'm really struggling to understand this.
By default, people should vote No on something they're not convinced of the merits of. Let the government come back with something better and we'll see again.

SusieBlue · 20-05-2018 01:54AM

Junadl wrote: »

I vote no.

I am a mother of 3 first of all. To feel life grow inside of you is amazing. To finally meet your baby at the end of your pregnancy is better than anything.

A baby is just the most innocent little thing and to think of somebody wanting to poison their baby tells me the person may need psychological help.

As a mother I could never turn to a young, let's say 19 year old and tell her aborting your baby is your best option. I believe in fate and things happen for a reason. A lot of the time, a newly pregnant woman freaks out and many do not feel any bond until that baby is in their arms. I think not letting her experience the love of her child, mother and child, surely would be worse than saying you can't handle motherhood, get rid of the baby?

Nothing is more beautiful than a mother and her baby.

I know Yes voters think the No side are too emotional but to me this is a hugely emotional topic. What, can you tell a woman, is more important than being a mother?

I think society believes motherhood is a second best option to something better.

I understand women want abortions but the majority do because of financial reasons. That is a tragedy. A mother who wants to keep her baby but can't, as a society we are letting her down and her baby.

In my eyes when a life is created it is not about just the woman anymore. It should not get to the stage of having to kill a 12 week old unborn baby. There is the morning after pill so why not educate people and supply these?

To teach the kids of tomorrow that a human life is worthless and can be thrown away if it isn't convenient, I mean is that a positive lesson? To teach the young men of tomorrow to sleep around and if the girl gets pregnant then pfft it ain't your problem. Is that not pretty soulless?

What is the message we are passing on?

There aren’t enough eye rolls in the world for this post.
Women can lead very happy, successful, fulfilling lives without ever having kids.
Some women find there is more to life than parenthood.

I see no benefit in forcing motherhood on a woman who doesn’t want it, especially on the weak whim that she might like it when the baby arrives.
Importance is subjective and many women hold higher importance in other areas of their life than rearing children and that’s perfectly ok and shouldn’t be shamed.
For long enough women were chained to the kitchen sink.

RobertKK · 20-05-2018 01:55AM

Apparently the latest opinion poll is using data that is not the most recent, most recent remains the Irish Times poll.

Irish Times poll, over the 14th and 15th May.
The Red C/Behaviour and attitudes poll from the 3rd May to the 15th May.

Neyite · 20-05-2018 01:56AM

Junadl wrote: »

So I take it you are not a mother? Excuse me but that is rude to call a mother a breeding mare. You sound so angry.
Bloody hell. I don't think a mother is nothing else. But maybe if we didn't view a mother in the disgusting way you have described, then more women would embrace motherhood instead of feeling like a failure?

It makes my blood boil when people say a baby is a clump of cells as we all began in the same way. I think before and after having children you could be two different people. It has a huge effect on a woman when they become mothers.

I'm just saying I don't think a woman should think it's ok to diminish the life of her baby. It is a fact that abortion takes a life. How can that be right/ Where is the moral compass here? Please answer, what are we teaching the next generation?

It is soulless and cold to deny your own child to take their first breath, take their first step, deny them their right to live. To create a life and then destroy it is not something to normalise.

I'm a mother and I agree with Spook - I think being a mother is important to YOU. You see yourself solely as a mother and you were very lucky to have had three healthy pregnancies and three healthy children at the end of it.

Your viewpoint is based only on what you can see for YOU. You can't put yourself in another woman's situation yet you judge those who make a different choice from you in very different circumstances from the ones you've ever experienced. How narrow minded and indeed smug of you.

I've never had a crisis pregnancy or a medically challenged one, and there's a good chance that even if I had a FFA pregnancy I would choose to carry to term but I can have empathy for women (and children!) who have had tragedy, trauma, loss and agonising choices during their pregnancy and may need to make a different choice to mine. And I don't judge or demean them for that.

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 01:56AM

Junadl wrote: »

The way I see it is that there is a massive pressure on people. Living has become a massive struggle. This is the government slowly slowly suffocating everyone.

.,.......

This is not a new thing

For decades ( because loveboats )women in Ireland took the plane or ferry

PhoenixParker · 20-05-2018 01:57AM

Junadl wrote: »

The way I see it is that there is a massive pressure on people. Living has become a massive struggle. This is the government slowly slowly suffocating everyone. Many couples can't afford to have kids at all or many women are forced to wait until their late 30s to have a child.

The cost of childcare is absolutely insane. The government should be helping with those costs. Not making it more and more impossible to even have a child.

The government are not building any houses, renting is outrageously expensive, their solution now to poverty is culling the unborn.

It makes me sad that women actually think the government gives a **** about you by offering abortion. What is happening inside your head that you think abortion is compassion?

WHAT ARE WE TEACHING THE KIDS OF TOMORROW?

It makes you sad, it makes me sad too, but what have YOU (and other no voters) done about it?

The solution to poverty is not culling the unborn but one proven solution is for women to have control over their own fertility and to have children when they have the resources and support to do so. Abortion facilitates that.

Since you wish to deny women abortion you have a responsibility to be part of an alternative solution.

What have you done to ensure that pregnant women under financial pressure do not feel that abortion is their only option?

Junadl · 20-05-2018 01:58AM

spookwoman wrote: »

No I am not, I don't want to be one either, in fact I'm not a fan of kids and I am not the only one. There are others like me out there. I am angry because of people like you telling me how I am supposed to feel. Telling me that I am supposed to continue with a pregnancy I don't want. Continue with a pregnancy that may be damaging to my health. I didn't say women were breeding mares I said
"No you are full of words but no action and the message you seem to be passing on is that women are just breeding mares and nothing else" so stop twisting words.

You have a very strange view of motherhood to come up with those idea's and I'd say offensive to some women out there to imply that they may be failures because they don't take to motherhood. What about women who don't bond or have PND are you implying they are failures?
What about women who cant have children what are they?

I don't know and don't want to know but from what I have read in here having children does have a big affect on ones life and its's not always positive.

The same can be said about the woman, is it morally right to force another human to have a child against their will. What makes you morally superior to do that. What about her right to live, her right to live how she wants to.

No you are picking it up wrong. You said the words breeding mares, I am saying society is telling women they are a failure if they become a mother, is that not true? I said also that women do not bond with the baby until the baby is born or maybe not even until weeks/months later. That is absolutely normal. I would not say a woman is a failure for feeling that way, no way.

What I am saying is the disregarding of all unborn babies because some women wish to live as they please is wrong. By you wanting your choice to end your pregnancy you take away the choice/right to live of all the unborn. Now does that sound fair?

White_hills · 20-05-2018 02:00AM

Junadl wrote: »

It makes me sad that women actually think the government gives a **** about you by offering abortion. What is happening inside your head that you think abortion is compassion?

WHAT ARE WE TEACHING THE KIDS OF TOMORROW?

Where's the compassion in forcing a woman to be pregnant when she doesn't want to be? How do you solve this problem?

gctest50 · 20-05-2018 02:01AM

it's just more of this :

veronymus · 20-05-2018 02:03AM

White_hills wrote: »

Your post made me quite sad. I'm more than just my ability to have children.

Not all women want to be Mothers. From reading your post it looks like it is very important to you and you sound like you would be very supportive if one of your children had a crisis pregnancy but it's different strokes for different folks unfortunately.

We all have to wake up and understand that what we think is best is not always suitable for others.

I'm voting yes. No more exporting our problems.

Yes, and not all mothers agree with such an absolutist position. This woman does not speak for us all. It's possible to love your child and still empathise with other women/young girls who feel entirely different about motherhood, or who cannot go through with a pregnancy because of circumstances, whatever they may be.

freshpopcorn · 20-05-2018 02:11AM

RobertKK wrote: »

Apparently the latest opinion poll is using data that is not the most recent, most recent remains the Irish Times poll.

Irish Times poll, over the 14th and 15th May.
The Red C/Behaviour and attitudes poll from the 3rd May to the 15th May.

I take part in REDC polls guys and I haven't being asking about eighth since early May!

Junadl · 20-05-2018 02:11AM

Neyite wrote: »

I'm a mother and I agree with Spook - I think being a mother is important to YOU. You see yourself solely as a mother and you were very lucky to have had three healthy pregnancies and three healthy children at the end of it.

Your viewpoint is based only on what you can see for YOU. You can't put yourself in another woman's situation yet you judge those who make a different choice from you in very different circumstances from the ones you've ever experienced. How narrow minded and indeed smug of you.

I've never had a crisis pregnancy or a medically challenged one, and there's a good chance that even if I had a FFA pregnancy I would choose to carry to term but I can have empathy for women (and children!) who have had tragedy, trauma, loss and agonising choices during their pregnancy and may need to make a different choice to mine. And I don't judge or demean them for that.

How am I being smug? My three kids were not planned and I wasn't in a perfect place in life to have them. I was in college when I had a miscarriage in my early 20s. This left a massive hole in my heart I couldn't cope with and sent me into a depression for years. When people say a baby in the first trimester is just a clump of cells, I would say you are being extremely insensitive to all who have miscarried their baby. Ignorant in fact.

If you are a mother how can you deny the humanity of the unborn child? You heard your unborn childs heart thudding inside of you, a new life. How can you possibly say it's fine for someone to stop that heart beating?

No matter what angle you come from, taking the right to life from my future grandchildren, based on women who want to **** around and not take responsibility for their actions, isn't sitting right. Why should the taxpayer have to fund your irresponsible actions?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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