8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

DOS · 19-05-2018 10:52PM

Aidric wrote: »

Polling is a forlorn exercise these days, Trump and Brexit bear this out. A lot of people straight up lie to pollsters because they are not comfortable that their vote fits the popular movement.

Having said that the same sex marriage referendum could well be a touchpoint for this vote.

The collection of headbangers advocating a no vote should be enough alone to carry a yes result.

I think the SSM referendum has relevance. Over the 3 years a number of the older generation, who would have been No voters have passed away. Also the 15-18 year Olds have come of age.

The big variable is many people are faced with a moral dilemma next Friday. In 2015 no lives were at stake. For many people next Friday's vote will be viewed through the prism of protecting life/potential life.

People have serious decisions to make and all opinions need to be respected.

gctest50 · 19-05-2018 10:53PM

thee glitz wrote: »

They should ask
medicsfor8th on twitter ............

You mean list-of-doctors-to-avoid-if-yer-pregnant ?

Captain Loveboats here for example :

Your o/h wouldn't want to be miscarrying and need a termination in a hurry

this yoke "never will carry out an abortion " :

Coillte_Bhoy · 19-05-2018 10:54PM

Aidric wrote: »

Polling is a forlorn exercise these days, Trump and Brexit bear this out. A lot of people straight up lie to pollsters because they are not comfortable that their vote fits the popular movement.

Having said that the same sex marriage referendum could well be a touchpoint for this vote.

The collection of headbangers advocating a no vote should be enough alone to carry a yes result.

Nonsense, and what about Trump exactly? Polls correctly predicted Clinton would win the popular vote. And the final Brexit polls were not that far off the mark. Yes they are not going to be totally accurate, of course not but they do give a fair indication of popular mood, denying this is just ridiculous imo

RobertKK · 19-05-2018 10:56PM

There is a rumour that Simon Harris has told RTE he will take part in the RTE Prime Time debate as long as Maria Steen is not present.
Maria Steen is probably the No side's best debater and should use her in the debate.

thee glitz · 19-05-2018 10:58PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

She shouldn’t have to go ask some biased doctors on Twitter.
She is being withheld necessary testing by the doctors who are treating her due to concerns for the baby.
The whole point is that she shouldn’t have to seek out another doctor, one who interprets the law differently.
She shouldn’t have to ask on Twitter.
She should be able to discuss all options for all treatments with her condition with her doctor, and then, based on that conversation, make her own informed decision on the matter.

Do you really think ‘ask on Twitter’ or ‘ask another doctor’ is an acceptable form of medical care?
Do you think this is an appropriate request to a woman who just wants the best for herself and her child?
She shouldn’t have to do that.

If there are doctors who are ill-informed about the law then that should be addressed. Now I don't know, and that's grand because it's not my job to do so. I know about my job. You're saying that some doctors are biased, not giving their best professional opinion - that's a very big claim to make.

Coillte_Bhoy · 19-05-2018 10:58PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I posted the stats just to show people difference!

Ok bur i just dont get your point tbh

Nettle Soup · 19-05-2018 10:59PM

DOS wrote: »

I think the SSM referendum has relevance. Over the 3 years a number of the older generation, who would have been No voters have passed away. Also the 15-18 year Olds have come of age.

The big variable is many people are faced with a moral dilemma next Friday. In 2015 no lives were at stake. For many people next Friday's vote will be viewed through the prism of protecting life/potential life.

People have serious decisions to make and all opinions need to be respected.

The NO side in SSM also did a lot of scaremongering - none of which has come true. I think conservative voters will have learned from that.

gmisk · 19-05-2018 11:01PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

The NO side in SSM also did a lot of scaremongering - none of which has come true. I think conservative voters will have learned from that.

Thank you, spot on.

RabbleRouser2k · 19-05-2018 11:01PM

gmisk wrote: »

I still can it ain't over til it's over need an excellent turn out of yes voters to do this!

Same- I've found the political parties such as Fine Gael have completely dropped the ball in campaigning for a yes. And we know that anything from the change of weather, to a bad episode of Corrie can make people change their vote. (Fine Fail a few years back were tipped to make major losses. According to the polls, it was a certainty. They had some slight losses, but some major gains, and so were unharmed). It's not over until the last vote is counted.

Enda Kenny would have been out there answering questions and defending his position (as he did with the Marriage ref). Simon Harris and Leo Varadkar left it incredibly late to campaign. I don't care if the Yes side were at 80 percent, they should be out there campaigning and answering people's concerns. Making sure any and all undecideds had their questions answered.

There is this underlying element of 'People voting yes love medical terminations'... which is farthest from the truth.
A Yes vote doesn't mean everyone approves of abortion-I personally think it is the last resort for anyone to make (it's not a run of the mill operation-and I think many underestimate the toll it can take on them, physically and emotionally) it simply means we wish to allow a democratic choice.
If someone regrets a termination, that's unfortunate-but 'regret' is beyond all our control.

Regret is human.

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 11:03PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Ok bur i just dont get your point tbh

I just thought some people might have found the stats interesting so they could compare them!

swampgas · 19-05-2018 11:04PM

thee glitz wrote: »

That doesn't seem a proportionate solution, less so than ...

Why does proportionate come into it? The 8th is blocking the government from legislating for abortion. What is wrong with an elected government doing that?

You give the impression that you're not that bothered by the negative effects of the 8th on women in Ireland. Not that bothered at all.

thee glitz · 19-05-2018 11:07PM

gctest50 wrote: »

You mean list-of-doctors-to-avoid-if-yer-pregnant ?

So if you're in need of a test for meningitis and some doctor won't do it, you wouldn't go to one who, based on their interpretation of the law, would do it? Because they oppose repealing the 8th...

Coillte_Bhoy · 19-05-2018 11:08PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I just thought some people might have found the stats interesting so they could compare them!

Ah right fair enough, i certainly dont think polling is infallible but over a campaign i think they are useful in tracking trends etc. fwiw i think the yes vote is well overstated and id be happy with 55%

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 11:09PM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

The NO side in SSM also did a lot of scaremongering - none of which has come true. I think conservative voters will have learned from that.

To be honest in my experience everybody who I know who voted No are voted No this time they are all nearly religious tough. So, no matter what facts are shown them they won't change their minds.

Zubeneschamali · 19-05-2018 11:09PM

gandalf wrote: »

So you would force a rape victim carry a child she didn't want?

Well, no, because there's always the boat to England.

Love boat!

SusieBlue · 19-05-2018 11:10PM

thee glitz wrote: »

So if you're in need of a test for meningitis and some doctor won't do it, you wouldn't go to one who, based on their interpretation of the law, would do it? Because they oppose repealing the 8th...

They should all do it. That’s the point.
You shouldn’t have to go through a litany of doctors looking for one who will put you first.

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 11:19PM

I am not from sure fully how this works but a Taxi service in Dublin is offering free drives to polling station journey is to the value of €10 and it has to be booked on an app!

https://lovindublin.com/news/lynk-taxis-giving-free-lifts-to-polling-stations-next-friday

PhoenixParker · 19-05-2018 11:23PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I have heard pro choice people say that abortion will continue to happen with or without the 8th amendment and therefore the 8th should be repealed. Well, murder, pedophilia and genocide happen, should they be allowed too?

The right to commit murder, pedophillia or genocide isnt constitutionally protected.

The right to travel for an abortion and to obtain information about abortion is.

The evidence shows that legalizing abortion had better outcomes on every level then banning abortion, it reduces the abortion rate, allows women to obtain healthcare, allows doctor's to follow best practice. Legal abortion is a the best way of reducing harm.

None of that is true of the three you mentioned. In other areas like euthanasia and drug laws, liberalisation of laws is also increasing because as with abortion it reduces harm.

gctest50 · 19-05-2018 11:26PM

thee glitz wrote: »

gctest50 wrote: »

You mean list-of-doctors-to-avoid-if-yer-pregnant ?

So if you're in need of a test for meningitis and some doctor won't do it, you wouldn't go to one who, based on their interpretation of the law, would do it? Because they oppose repealing the 8th...

paid by the wordcount again or something ?

Just avoid Captain Loveboats & co. if you want your O/H to live

maybe some day his mammy will tell him it's ok

thee glitz · 19-05-2018 11:30PM

swampgas wrote: »

Why does proportionate come into it? The 8th is blocking the government from legislating for abortion. What is wrong with an elected government doing that?

You give the impression that you're not that bothered by the negative effects of the 8th on women in Ireland. Not that bothered at all.

What is wrong with that is that it allows for the killing of an unborn, under the proposed legislation, just because you want to.

Your impression is incorrect. At the risk of also being so, you give the impression of just wanting abortion to be legalised, aside from any medical concerns.

SusieBlue wrote: »

They should all do it. That’s the point.
You shouldn’t have to go through a litany of doctors looking for one who will put you first.

So educate them, make things clearer, and empower them to make judgements based on the facts available and risks percieved. Change the law if needs be, but tell me why allowing having abortions done on unborns up to 12 weeks without restriction is necessary.

thee glitz · 19-05-2018 11:45PM

gctest50 wrote: »

paid by the wordcount again or something ?

Just avoid Captain Loveboats & co. if you want your O/H to live

maybe some day his mammy will tell him it's ok

It's well into Saturday night, so I'll help you out there. I replied to a post claiming that someone couldn't get some treatment here. I suggested they consult medicsfor8th.

fxotoole · 19-05-2018 11:47PM

thee glitz wrote: »

What is wrong with that is that it allows for the killing of an unborn, under the proposed legislation, just because you want to. Your impression is incorrect. At the risk of also being so, you give the impression of just wanting abortion to be legalised, aside from any medical concerns.

So educate them, make things clearer, and empower them to make judgements based on the facts available and risks percieved. Change the law if needs be, but tell me why allowing having abortions done on unborns up to 12 weeks without restriction is necessary.

At 12 weeks the fetus is not sentient. Therefore if comes down to removing the fetus to save the already sentient and fully alive woman, ethically there is no problem in terminating the fetus.

By the way, the word "killing" does not apply because the fetus has not yet developed sentience and is therefore not alive. So removing a 12 week old fetus is not killing anyone.

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 12:02AM

gandalf wrote: »

So you would force a rape victim carry a child she didn't want?

Would you say an unborn should be denied the right to life for this reason - is that where your concern lies, at all? Of course it would be difficult for the victim to carry through with it. The MAP might be a good solution. Either way, allowing abortion for any/no reason is not justified by this possibility.

Wrongway1985 · 20-05-2018 12:18AM

RobertKK wrote: »

There is a rumour that Simon Harris has told RTE he will take part in the RTE Prime Time debate as long as Maria Steen is not present.
Maria Steen is probably the No side's best debater and should use her in the debate.

She kills debates some woman to jog questions grand there if her lies can be exposed open to fact check. A good weapon to have is what you mean

It's typical FG so many circumstances others are sent on live TV to take the fall for their seniors hardly the most shocking thing you'll hear.

If you take insult to Maria Steen not being part of the equation I feel sorry for ya sucker!

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 12:20AM

fxotoole wrote: »

the fetus has not yet developed sentience and is therefore not alive.

Seriously?

Calina · 20-05-2018 12:24AM

RobertKK wrote: »

There is a rumour that Simon Harris has told RTE he will take part in the RTE Prime Time debate as long as Maria Steen is not present.
Maria Steen is probably the No side's best debater and should use her in the debate.

Yes. I have heard that rumour. Not taking any notice though; a) the prolife campaign deployed her at length last week between Claire Byrne and Pat Kenny and b) a truly strong vampaign would have more thsn one competent public face. Excessive use of Maria Steen makes the campaign look weak and tbh what does the whispering idea that only Maria should do this say about all the other high profile activists like, say, Cora Sherlock?

bleary · 20-05-2018 12:33AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Marriage Referendum Sunday Business Poll just before the Marriage Referendum was
Excluding Other
Yes 73%.
No 27%.
Including Other
Yes 69%.
No 25%.
Other 6%.

But the no vote ended up being 38% in that referendum so a huge underestimate in the poll. Apply the same percentage to this and this will not pass. Even afterwards with current politicians, they are unlikely to pass proposed legislation. Remember a significant number voted against the protection of life bill.

Coillte_Bhoy · 20-05-2018 12:33AM

thee glitz wrote: »

Would you say an unborn should be denied the right to life for this reason - is that where your concern lies, at all? Of course it would be difficult for the victim to carry through with it. The MAP might be a good solution. Either way, allowing abortion for any/no reason is not justified by this possibility.

Yes its horrific but thats the choice, now will you answer the question?

20-05-2018 12:37AM

The SBP, alongside it's poll, published a "wisdom of crowds" prediction where Yes wins with 56% to No's 44%. This method was spot on in the SSM ref with a week to go.

Also, the Sunday Times has a poll:

Yes 52%
No 24%
Don't know/won't vote 24%

All encouraging for Yes but not over the line yet.

thee glitz · 20-05-2018 12:38AM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Because reporting rape, and going through the legal process is a very difficult, and incredibly traumatising thing to have to do. Often the victim is left feeling as though it's their fault, or that they deserved it somehow. They can be left feeling dirty and as though they are a slut. They could have been raped by a friend, by a family member. They might think they wouldn't be believed, or if it is someone close, they might be worried about hurting other people.

On top of that, they have to process the act itself. The humiliation, the powerlessness, the pain. The hows, the whys, the whats. Some women would rather die than have to live through that again, but you're insisting that they get questioned and grilled on every aspect of their life. From what they were wearing, how they were acting, what they said, why were they where they were. Then they have to explain the act over and over, every detail relived repeatedly with just about no mental support, to see if anything about the story changes, despite many people shutting down during the act as a coping method. Then, if they manage to get to the end of it without too much added trauma, they might hopefully be able to get a conviction and a sentencing... but there's no guarantees.

No - I just suggested that they report it to the RCC.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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