8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Igotadose · 19-05-2018 10:54AM

I think the No side define "abortion on demand" as "Being obstreperous enough to ask for one. "

Just her · 19-05-2018 10:56AM

Hey folks, Ive just received a warning for calling a poster patronising for started their post to me with ' could it be, follow me on this one.'

I fully expect to be banned for something minor soon.
I've done my best to stay civil without letting myself get walked on believe it or not.

I'd just like to thank everyone on both sides who has engaged with me and done their best to reply to me and apologies to anyone I've offended, it's really not my intention, emotions do run high in these debates.

Wrongway1985 · 19-05-2018 11:00AM

Clair4 wrote: »

I think what posters mean is that the hse are crap with appointments as we know , and this may lead to having abortion on demand past the 12 weeks.

Up to 24 weeks is restricted but available to those who suffer FFA. The posters for protecting this eigth have included these instances to stretch the timeline as the longer it is the more unreasonable it sounds.

erica74 · 19-05-2018 11:00AM

Clair4 wrote: »

I think what posters mean is that the hse are crap with appointments as we know , and this may lead to having abortion on demand past the 12 weeks.

No, many posters have been very clear that they think women will be able to get an abortion "no questions asked".

joe40 · 19-05-2018 11:01AM

Igotadose wrote: »

I think the No side define "abortion on demand" as "Being obstreperous enough to ask for one. "

Even if there was some qualified reason, people would say sure all she has to do is lie.
I am fed up listening to people saying they disagree with abortion request without reasons, but can never then provide a single "justification" that would be workable.
The guy with the "rape committees" made a pretty pathetic attempt.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 11:14AM

Some piccies from yesterday, Dublin 2.

The No campaign is totally not about religion, atall atall.

Won't somebody think of the spider babies!

Somebody's been a bit naughty

gctest50 · 19-05-2018 11:26AM

Just her wrote: »

...............

The last paragraph we will not agree on. You say we use fluffy wording, to me it's a developing baby ........

.

A ferocious biological struggle between mother and baby belies any sentimental ideas we might have about pregnancy

https://aeon.co/essays/why-pregnancy-is-a-biological-war-between-mother-and-baby

robp · 19-05-2018 11:28AM

joe40 wrote: »

Even if there was some qualified reason, people would say sure all she has to do is lie.
I am fed up listening to people saying they disagree with abortion request without reasons, but can never then provide a single "justification" that would be workable.
The guy with the "rape committees" made a pretty pathetic attempt.

That is an wrong conclusion, there is huge variation in the frequency of abortion across the world. This is due to many factors but ease of legal access is undoubtedly a major factor. A lot of the prochoicer seem to have no grasp of how human behaviour responds at all.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 11:32AM

I’m giving up debating my belief that a foetus is not a person/baby with the no no voter view that a foetus is a person/baby; we are just going around in circles.

And I think it’s losing sight of the issue which does not involve getting to the bottom of that question but rather another which is should the 8th amendment continue to be a part of our constitution.

This fella opened his mind to the reality of what is happening in our country today and changed from a staunch prolifer to being a yes voter. Forget what you think of him, his logic and emotional response to the question is sound.

Worth a read.

https://www.joe.ie/amp/life-style/jonathan-obrien-626504?__twitter_impression=true

gmisk · 19-05-2018 11:32AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Some piccies from yesterday, Dublin 2.

The No campaign is totally not about religion, atall atall.

Won't somebody think of the spider babies!

Somebody's been a bit naughty

Spider babies lol

mc25 · 19-05-2018 11:34AM

I think I'm going to have to take a break from the in her shoes posts. I read most of them and every time I think they can't possibly get any worse another one comes along and breaks my heart:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=171217720219320&substory_index=0&id=142243109783448&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

Also makes me really irrationally angry at that simpering woman from the WYB documentary the other night that wouldn't allow termination for medical reasons.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 11:39AM

mc25 wrote: »

I think I'm going to have to take a break from the in her shoes posts. I read most of them and every time I think they can't possibly get any worse another one comes along and breaks my heart:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=171217720219320&substory_index=0&id=142243109783448&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

Also makes me really irrationally angry at that simpering woman from the WYB documentary the other night that wouldn't allow termination for medical reasons.

I hear you. I never cry and I’ve been bawling my eyes out with those stories. So wrong. Heartbreaking stuff. It’s a crappy enough world even without the 8th in place.

robp · 19-05-2018 11:45AM

If you want to see heart breaking stuff.
https://twitter.com/obianuju/status/997161100482367488

Mushy · 19-05-2018 11:49AM

robp wrote: »

If you want to see heart breaking stuff.
https://twitter.com/obianuju/status/997161100482367488

At least they have the choice, as shameful as the people were

robp · 19-05-2018 11:54AM

Mushy wrote: »

At least they have the choice, as shameful as the people were

Well I am all for freedom of speech, even if it if is trying to shame and bully vulnerable migrant mothers, however like most people I could never stand over removal of human rights of an entire section of Irish society.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 12:03PM

Just had two Love Boaters at the door a few minutes ago. They went into the six months spiel which is of course a lie. I told them if the No side was confident in their arguments they would have no need to make up stuff.

the purple tin · 19-05-2018 12:04PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Some piccies from yesterday, Dublin 2.

The No campaign is totally not about religion, atall atall.

Reminds me of the opening credits for The Life of Brian

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 12:04PM

robp wrote: »

That is an wrong conclusion, there is huge variation in the frequency of abortion across the world. This is due to many factors but ease of legal access is undoubtedly a major factor. A lot of the prochoicer seem to have no grasp of how human behaviour responds at all.

Legal access to abortion correlates with lower abortion rates.

Mushy · 19-05-2018 12:09PM

robp wrote: »

Mushy wrote: »

At least they have the choice, as shameful as the people were

Well I am all for freedom of speech, even if it if is trying to shame and bully vulnerable migrant mothers, however like most people I could never stand over removal of human rights of an entire section of Irish society.

Such as the mother's, according to the UN? Or do I've my wires crossed?

Mushy · 19-05-2018 12:09PM

robp wrote: »

Mushy wrote: »

At least they have the choice, as shameful as the people were

Well I am all for freedom of speech, even if it if is trying to shame and bully vulnerable migrant mothers, however like most people I could never stand over removal of human rights of an entire section of Irish society.

Such as the mother's, according to the UN? Or do I've my wires crossed?

robp · 19-05-2018 12:13PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Legal access to abortion correlates with lower abortion rates.

Nope. In Europe there is often quite the converse pattern.The idea that legalisation could directly decrease abortion rates is frankly bizarre and is hugely naive because disentangling cause and effect here is so complicated. In Portugal its almost certainly to do with a global secular decrease in abortion and that secular decrease is very much present in Ireland.

robp · 19-05-2018 12:15PM

Mushy wrote: »

Such as the mother's, according to the UN? Or do I've my wires crossed?

UN never said such. A UN rights committee claimed that. Big difference but yeah prochoicers dont do detail. Yes the mother's. Choice is not always a good thing. In the Netherlands, mothers in some specific cases can abort born infants, is that a good thing?

January · 19-05-2018 12:18PM

robp wrote: »

UN never said such. A UN rights committee claimed that. Big difference but yeah prochoicers dont do detail. Yes the mother's. Choice is not always a good thing. In the Netherlands, mothers in some specific cases can abort born infants, is that a good thing?

WTF are you actually claiming, you can't abort a born infant.

Are you talking about infanticide, can you please provide a source for your wildly outlandish claims?

Ave Sodalis · 19-05-2018 12:18PM

robp wrote: »

UN never said such. A UN rights committee claimed that. Big difference but yeah prochoicers dont do detail. Yes the mother's. Choice is not always a good thing. In the Netherlands, mothers in some specific cases can abort born infants, is that a good thing?

Claims pro-choicers don't do detail. Also claims that born infants can be aborted.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 12:20PM

robp wrote: »

Nope. In Europe there is often quite the converse pattern.

Which countries?

joe40 · 19-05-2018 12:20PM

robp wrote: »

joe40 wrote: »

Even if there was some qualified reason, people would say sure all she has to do is lie.
I am fed up listening to people saying they disagree with abortion request without reasons, but can never then provide a single "justification" that would be workable.
The guy with the "rape committees" made a pretty pathetic attempt.

That is an wrong conclusion, there is huge variation in the frequency of abortion across the world. This is due to many factors but ease of legal access is undoubtedly a major factor. A lot of the prochoicer seem to have no grasp of how human behaviour responds at all.

I fundamentally disagree. In our situation we have relatively easy access to abortion, when the alternative is going through with a pregnancy and raising a child.

I live in Donegal it would be quicker for me to go to England than go to Dublin.
Availability of abortion in Ireland will make it safer, less heartbreaking, but will not increase the frequency

Igotadose · 19-05-2018 12:21PM

robp wrote: »

Nope. In Europe there is often quite the converse pattern.The idea that legalisation could directly decrease abortion rates is frankly bizarre and is hugely naive because disentangling cause and effect here is so complicated. In Portugal its almost certainly to do with a global secular decrease in abortion and that secular decrease is very much present in Ireland.

Correlation isn't causation, which is what Hotblack posted.

Secular decrease - what's that mean? There are religious abortions versus secular ones? A decrease in abortion rates overall, is likely due to availability and improved contraception, seems simple enough.

swampgas · 19-05-2018 12:21PM

I'd like to ask a few questions to anyone who is against repealing the 8th because they don't like the proposed legislation allowing for "on request" terminations up to 12 weeks.

1. Surely most women who want an "on request" termination right now can just travel, as guaranteed by the constitution? How does keeping the 8th, with all the problems it causes, change that?

2. How many weeks would you accept instead of 12? It's easy to say 12 weeks is "too much". Please specify how many weeks you would accept, and please explain why.

3. If your partner/sister/daughter told you they had a crisis pregnancy and were going to take abortion pills, would you report them to the Gárdaí?

I'm trying to figure out if some people just want the constitutional and legislative ban on abortion there as some kind of public sign that "we don't approve of abortion in this country" but really don't want to see anyone actually prosecuted.

robp · 19-05-2018 12:24PM

swampgas wrote: »

I'd like to ask a few questions to anyone who is against repealing the 8th because they don't like the proposed legislation allowing for "on request" terminations up to 12 weeks.

1. Surely most women who want an "on request" termination right now can just travel, as guaranteed by the constitution? How does keeping the 8th, with all the problems it causes, change that?

2. How many weeks would you accept instead of 12? It's easy to say 12 weeks is "too much". Please specify how many weeks you would accept, and please explain why.

3. If your partner/sister/daughter told you they had a crisis pregnancy and were going to take abortion pills, would you report them to the Gárdaí?

I'm trying to figure out if some people just want the constitutional and legislative ban on abortion there as some kind of public sign that "we don't approve of abortion in this country" but really don't want to see anyone actually prosecuted.

Swamp gas, the 14 year jail term was introduced by prochoice FG/Lab against the advice of prolife campaign. Prolife people have always argued women are victims here and my own personal experience would reinforce that view.

Igotadose wrote: »

Correlation isn't causation, which is what Hotblack posted.

Secular decrease - what's that mean? There are religious abortions versus secular ones? A decrease in abortion rates overall, is likely due to availability and improved contraception, seems simple enough.

Secular has several meanings. In stats secular means a widespread trend.

robp · 19-05-2018 12:33PM

January wrote: »

WTF are you actually claiming, you can't abort a born infant.

Are you talking about infanticide, can you please provide a source for your wildly outlandish claims?

You dont even though the endgame of your argument. Normally in the Netherlands infants are protected like everywhere else, however, in the name of 'choice' prochoice doctors and philosophers and lawyers developed a protocol to abort infants where their life was deemed to be not worth living due some kind of serious illness but not terminal illnesses without risk of facing charges. Its called the groningen protocol and it is not theory. It has allowed the death of infants, not many but even one is repulsive. Undoubtedly prochoicers will defend it or try to down play. The dark dogma of choice knows few limits. Once again, prochoicers been proven wrong.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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