8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 08:51AM

Edward M wrote: »

A lot of people like the way they do things in the UK!
We spent hundreds of years trying to get away from the UK, now we want to be like them in a lot of ways.
We can be better than them, 12 hrs or so in counting won't make much difference, the legislation won't come in to affect for a while anyway.

I find it a very tedious process. I'd like it to be out of the way!
It's nothing to do with legislation/etc.

optimist16 · 19-05-2018 08:54AM

There's two things that are getting me. 1) The beardy old fella's driving around with their NO stickers and 2) Young girls campaigning for NO.
When I was young I met a man that I had a child by. I was far from home and he'd stopped my contraception making all sex rape. I became pregnant very quickly. Leaving wasn't an option with this man nor was getting outside of the house. It's a long story that I'll not go into but to be sure I wouldn't abort he wouldn't let me see a doctor and told my father immediately knowing that he'd not allow abortion. It took a long court case to escape the father (a court case he initiated to keep control of me). He showed no interest in my child making him merely another possession. During the court case it transpired that this man had done this to 3 women before me. He has a total of five children by different mothers and mine was the only one to not be placed in care.
I did the very best for my child and loved him with all I have but genetically he is predisposed to the same traits as his father. He was given all the help we could find but he is happy as he is. The cycle continues and I pity the young women he is attaching himself to.
My father got quite badly hurt by my child and he'd now say it is a woman's choice. I've recently felt some resentment towards my father over it.
The pregnancy was very difficult as I was terribly sick all the way through made worse by not being let eat as the father said I was wasting food. I raised my child whilst going through courts for his welfare, whilst suffering PTSD and trying to figure out how to restart my life after four years of being locked in by a monster and I was lucky. Some twenty odd years later and the father and son still return to inflict damage, mostly by social media.
Came up with a good idea for penal reform though. If crime was punishable by sterilisation without anesthetic that should deter a few and we don't need anymore of them in our midst. The reason for without anesthesia is in case the good guys get sent by the Mrs for a cheap job

Beautiful day

Fizzlesque · 19-05-2018 08:54AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Thank you for your heartfelt post. This is not about scoring points in a debate, it's about real women and the situations they are in and the support we should be giving them but often don't.

x

I could not agree more, Hotblack, it absolutely is about real women and not a point-scoring debate. A good friend of mine had an abortion the same year my daughter was born (we didn't know each other at that time) and we have often discussed how our different choices have affected us. She doesn't regret her decision, although it wasn't an easy choice to make. Every single day I oscillate between deep regret and trying to justify my choice. It is no exaggeration to say I am deeply traumatised by my choice and there is absolutely no mending my broken heart.

I have always dabbled in creative writing and last year I went part time in work to facilitate my need to write. At the beginning of this year I finally accepted that the story that wants to be written is the story of a girl who gives her child up for adoption. I fought for a long time to write anything other than that story but it kept sneaking back onto the page of almost every story I started. I can't wait for this referendum to be over because I have become addicted to following this thread (and its predecessors). If this referendum passes, I will feel more at peace even though my reproducing years are almost behind me. I don't exactly know why I will find solace in abortion being legalised but perhaps its because I don't want a single girl or woman to feel cornered the way I felt cornered all those years ago and I definitely don't want a single girl or woman to sign herself up for the heartache I unwittingly signed myself up for. I was insanely ignorant back then. If I could turn the clock back, I would never agree to let someone else become my baby's mother - absolutely no way, not in a million years.

Sorry, I'm guilty of letting my fingers dance across the keyboard again - and I can't even blame the glasses of wine today. Thanks for reading (if you did)

Edward M · 19-05-2018 08:55AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I find it a very tedious process. I'd like it to be out of the way!
It's nothing to do with legislation/etc.

I have a an anti British mind sometimes, pay no heed to my ramblings, I take your point.
I wonder how many canvassers will take a few hrs off today to watch the "royal" wedding?

freshpopcorn · 19-05-2018 08:58AM

Edward M wrote: »

I have a an anti British mind sometimes, pay no heed to my ramblings, I take your point.
I wonder how many canvassers will take a few hrs off today to watch the "royal" wedding?

I don't know I saw Together for Yes having a Royal wedding party to raise funds a few weeks ago.

Tipsy McSwagger · 19-05-2018 09:04AM

optimist16 wrote: »

There's two things that are getting me. 1) The beardy old fella's driving around with their NO stickers and 2) Young girls campaigning for NO.
When I was young I met a man that I had a child by. I was far from home and he'd stopped my contraception making all sex rape. I became pregnant very quickly. Leaving wasn't an option with this man nor was getting outside of the house. It's a long story that I'll not go into but to be sure I wouldn't abort he wouldn't let me see a doctor and told my father immediately knowing that he'd not allow abortion. It took a long court case to escape the father (a court case he initiated to keep control of me). He showed no interest in my child making him merely another possession. During the court case it transpired that this man had done this to 3 women before me. He has a total of five children by different mothers and mine was the only one to not be placed in care.
I did the very best for my child and loved him with all I have but genetically he is predisposed to the same traits as his father. He was given all the help we could find but he is happy as he is. The cycle continues and I pity the young women he is attaching himself to.
My father got quite badly hurt by my child and he'd now say it is a woman's choice. I've recently felt some resentment towards my father over it.
The pregnancy was very difficult as I was terribly sick all the way through made worse by not being let eat as the father said I was wasting food. I raised my child whilst going through courts for his welfare, whilst suffering PTSD and trying to figure out how to restart my life after four years of being locked in by a monster and I was lucky. Some twenty odd years later and the father and son still return to inflict damage, mostly by social media.
Came up with a good idea for penal reform though. If crime was punishable by sterilisation without anesthetic that should deter a few and we don't need anymore of them in our midst. The reason for without anesthesia is in case the good guys get sent by the Mrs for a cheap job
Beautiful day

Huh?

Just her · 19-05-2018 09:04AM

spookwoman wrote: »

A foetus doesn't make it to back consciousness if the pill or abortion happens before the 12 weeks because they never made it there in the first place

Nitpicking. A brain dead person has no chance of consciousness. A foetus will become conscious provided they are not aborted or miscarried. Abortion is to make sure they die before they can develop further. Turning off life support to a brain dead person because their life has naturally ended is not the same as having an abortion to purposefully end the foetus life. Nitpick away again now.

Just her · 19-05-2018 09:09AM

quickbeam wrote: »

Thanks AJ. I'll admit I haven't followed this and other threads closely (don't have time for one thing) but I have dipped in and out since the beginning and the recent discussion was what spurred me to ask what had been confusing me for a while. I don't believe my specific question had been answered prior to me asking it. My join date and post count should have indicated that I wasn't a rereg troll. It did feel a bit daunting, like coming into a war zone, so a few of the replies were certainly not appreciated, though perhaps not surprising. I appreciate those who did answer though I had hoped for some no-voters to respond too for balance. I'm not looking for an argument only answers which I've now got so with that I bow out of the thread.

A no voter did answer, at least one anyway

Nettle Soup · 19-05-2018 09:12AM

optimist16 wrote: »

There's two things that are getting me. 1) The beardy old fella's driving around with their NO stickers and 2) Young girls campaigning for NO.
When I was young I met a man that I had a child by. I was far from home and he'd stopped my contraception making all sex rape. I became pregnant very quickly. Leaving wasn't an option with this man nor was getting outside of the house. It's a long story that I'll not go into but to be sure I wouldn't abort he wouldn't let me see a doctor and told my father immediately knowing that he'd not allow abortion. It took a long court case to escape the father (a court case he initiated to keep control of me). He showed no interest in my child making him merely another possession. During the court case it transpired that this man had done this to 3 women before me. He has a total of five children by different mothers and mine was the only one to not be placed in care.
I did the very best for my child and loved him with all I have but genetically he is predisposed to the same traits as his father. He was given all the help we could find but he is happy as he is. The cycle continues and I pity the young women he is attaching himself to.
My father got quite badly hurt by my child and he'd now say it is a woman's choice. I've recently felt some resentment towards my father over it.
The pregnancy was very difficult as I was terribly sick all the way through made worse by not being let eat as the father said I was wasting food. I raised my child whilst going through courts for his welfare, whilst suffering PTSD and trying to figure out how to restart my life after four years of being locked in by a monster and I was lucky. Some twenty odd years later and the father and son still return to inflict damage, mostly by social media.
Came up with a good idea for penal reform though. If crime was punishable by sterilisation without anesthetic that should deter a few and we don't need anymore of them in our midst. The reason for without anesthesia is in case the good guys get sent by the Mrs for a cheap job
Beautiful day

That is a shocking story. You poor woman.

Just her · 19-05-2018 09:17AM

Grayson wrote: »

Then you're talking about potentiality, not actuality. Mind address the rest of the post too?

You say that as if it's some great get out of jail free card. It will actually become conscious in a couple of weeks if you don't go out of your way to end it's life. If you miscarry why would you go for abortion. I posted this all before.

What part would you me to address? You were replying to another poster not me. Is it that part about if you agree with contraception that you have no option but to agree with abortion. You just throw that in to get away from the actual subject of abortion

pjohnson · 19-05-2018 09:24AM

Just her wrote: »

You say that as if it's some great get out of jail free card. It will actually become conscious in a couple of weeks if you don't go out of your way to end it's life. If you miscarry why would you go for abortion. I posted this all before.

What part would you me to address? You were replying to another poster not me. Is it that part about if you agree with contraception that you have no option but to agree with abortion. You just throw that in to get away from the actual subject of abortion

It will loose that conciousness again in a few decades if you wanna play a actuality game.

Nettle Soup · 19-05-2018 09:26AM

Just her wrote: »

Grayson wrote: »

Then you're talking about potentiality, not actuality. Mind address the rest of the post too?

You say that as if it's some great get out of jail free card. It will actually become conscious in a couple of weeks if you don't go out of your way to end it's life. If you miscarry why would you go for abortion. I posted this all before.

What part would you me to address? You were replying to another poster not me. Is it that part about if you agree with contraception that you have no option but to agree with abortion. You just throw that in to get away from the actual subject of abortion

You sound angrier than anyone else on this thread and that's saying something. Do you mind me asking why you are so tetchy?

Just her · 19-05-2018 09:32AM

kenmc wrote: »

Nope. Up to 12 weeks it will be 72hours after demand. On demand means "I want this right now", not "I want this in 3 days time".

Fed up with all the FUD being bandied about by the no side. Only one more week thank fcuk.

Serious nitpicking again. The abortion will be given is the point. Waiting 3 days is in case someone would change their mind. They'll still get the abortion

dudara · 19-05-2018 09:33AM

Just her wrote: »

Serious nitpicking again. The abortion will be given is the point. Waiting 3 days is in case someone would change their mind. They'll still get the abortion

Perhaps they will, and perhaps they won’t. The simple fact is that our proposed legislation gives a little bit of reflection time before it can go ahead.

Hannibal_Smith · 19-05-2018 09:37AM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

antiskeptic wrote: »

The medics have their views, the philosophers have their views, the theists have their views, the lawyers have their views, the politicians have their views.

No one can say for sure what the cut off point is for being a person as opposed to being abortable

To vote Yes is to say you're willing to take a stab at that cut off point. You, however informed you think you are by all the arguments that all the "experts" pose, are deciding to play God.

As the old saying goes. If you don't know (and you don't actually know) vote No.

I know that my 12 week miscarriage was painful but not a minute fraction of the pain that losing my living breathing son would be.

I know that nobody in my family, friends or society in general treated it as the loss of a child though they were upset for me.

I know that the government didn't give me child benefit for the three months. Nor did they give me maternity leave which the government legally allows for stillbirths at 24 weeks.

I know that at 12 weeks the fetus has value but not a value remotely close to that of a child.
My family and friends also know this, even the no voters among them.
The government also know this in the way they legislate.

I also know that a 12 week fetus can't survive without being attached to my body, and I believe I should get to decide what I do with my body.

I've been saying exactly the same thing for weeks now. People only think of a 12 week feotus when they think they can poke their nose into what another person is doing. No one cares about a feotus that a woman has lost through miscarriage. They may feel sympathy towards the woman but the 'try again' response is trotted out like the one that was lost didn't matter. So when peoplebleat on about killing babies, I find it very odd. They have to know themselves how odd it is!.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 09:44AM

Just her wrote: »

Nitpicking. A brain dead person has no chance of consciousness. A foetus will become conscious provided they are not aborted or miscarried. Abortion is to make sure they die before they can develop further. Turning off life support to a brain dead person because their life has naturally ended is not the same as having an abortion to purposefully end the foetus life. Nitpick away again now.

An aborted foetus has no chance of consciousness either if it has been aborted already. And there a thousands of women that have a miscarriage that still have to undergo the procedure for an abortion-including me. It happens when the miscarriage is incomplete.

There are many women who suffer multiple miscarriages. In the UK many of those women are monitored early on. I don’t know what happens here I can only speak from experience. If they are told early on their pregnancy won't make it they can choose to end the pregnancy earlier than nature would. It saves a lot of heartache (even if it doesn’t change the outcome).

A foetus is not a baby. It is not a person. Potential to become a person is not the same thing as an actual person. An entity dependent on another entity to survive is known as a parasite. Not the fluffy wording we use to describe an embryo/foetus but that is what they are. A growing embryo will take everything it needs to survive from its host indiscriminately and regardless of the effect on its host. It is not a helpless baby. Like it or not that’s the ugly truth.

Gunslinger92 · 19-05-2018 09:45AM

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

Huh?

If she only consented to sex with protection, him removing the protection meant there was no consent. Sex without consent = rape

Just her · 19-05-2018 09:48AM

Nettle Soup wrote: »

You sound angrier than anyone else on this thread and that's saying something. Do you mind me asking why you are so tetchy?

I feel people keep trying to take things off topic, in my opinion, nitpicking also I feel when to my mind it's clear what someone meant but they'll go in and nitpick at the way you put it, I feel. I don't actual feel angry a bit irritatd maybe but I know my blunt style of posting probably comes across as so.

Overheal · 19-05-2018 09:59AM

pleas advice wrote: »

It is on demand, no questions asked. Why do you feel the need to deny this?

I can’t even get a prescription renewal no questions asked. You’re talking out your ass. As are anyone else that believe this line.

Just her · 19-05-2018 10:06AM

Dressing gown wrote: »

An aborted foetus has no chance of consciousness either if it has been aborted already. And there a thousands of women that have a miscarriage that still have to undergo the procedure for an abortion-including me. It happens when the miscarriage is incomplete.

There are many women who suffer multiple miscarriages. In the UK many of those women are monitored early on. I don’t know what happens here I can only speak from experience. If they are told early on their pregnancy won't make it they can choose to end the pregnancy earlier than nature would. It saves a lot of heartache (even if it doesn’t change the outcome).

A foetus is not a baby. It is not a person. Potential to become a person is not the same thing as an actual person. An entity dependent on another entity to survive is known as a parasite. Not the fluffy wording we use to describe an embryo/foetus but that is what they are. A growing embryo will take everything it needs to survive from its host indiscriminately and regardless of the effect on its host. It is not a helpless baby. Like it or not that’s the ugly truth.

I feel like you are trying to mix abortion into the same category as miscarriage. I disagree. One is deliberate to end a pregnancy , miscarriage is nature taking its course in ending a pregnancy, mostly are maybe always when there was something wrong with the foetus.

Someone will come along now and pick out that people sometimes have abortions when the foetus is not healthy. But most abortions are on healthy foetus that would reach term.

I'm reading one of your arguments as abortion on demand ( or abortion after 3 days of demanding, to save some one picking me up on that) should come in because of the hard cases where a baby is going to be lost and people feel this will be easier on them. It's not that I don't have sympathy for those cases, I just think those cases are constantly touched on to bring in abortion for all.

The last paragraph we will not agree on. You say we use fluffy wording, to me it's a developing baby and I don't think anyone has given a solid argument against that. I got told ' it is developing into a baby it's not a developing baby' and something about a puppy turning into a cat. To my mind at least, that's nitpicking.

19-05-2018 10:06AM

Just catching up on this thread and I'm astounded at the suggestion that women would get pregnant on purpose in order to experience an abortion. Who in their right mind would do this?

It's up there with "but people will be able to marry their dogs" in the SSM ref, and "hello divorce, goodbye daddy."

Bannasidhe · 19-05-2018 10:20AM

Just her wrote: »

Well you took a lot of time to dig that out to 'reply' to me but managed to dodge answering the question. I have no problem answering yours. No I've never heard that view before so not common among proliferd, haven't a clue what all elected officials would say in their place of work but I would hope not, no I don't support their statement that women should be sent to zoos to get abortions.

See that's how you reply to questions

Gee, I didn't realise we were on the clock.My bad for not jumping to it even though it was quite late here in Greenwich Meantime Land.
I was waiting to see how long it would take you to provide an actual link to the story you were building... but you never did provide an actual link did you?
I did that. And it was to her unreserved apology. Making your big story a non-story.

What was your question?
Did I think Lena Dunham's joke was *insert some insinuation about the pro-choice movement* ?
a) I didn't hear it.
b) Never heard of the woman (took a while to find out who she was due to your delay in providing her name)
b) From what I have read I think it was in extremely poor taste (of course I had to go find the links myself as you completely failed to provide any to the incident).
C) Lena Dunham also thinks it was in poor taste and apologised.

See. That's how you answer a post with the passive aggression dialled down.

Dressing gown · 19-05-2018 10:21AM

Just her wrote: »

I feel like you are trying to mix abortion into the same category as miscarriage. I disagree. One is deliberate to end a pregnancy , miscarriage is nature taking its course in ending a pregnancy, mostly are maybe always when there was something wrong with the foetus.

Someone will come along now and pick out that people sometimes have abortions when the foetus is not healthy. But most abortions are on healthy foetus that would reach term.

I'm reading one of your arguments as abortion on demand ( or abortion after 3 days of demanding, to save some one picking me up on that) should come in because of the hard cases where a baby is going to be lost and people feel this will be easier on them. It's not that I don't have sympathy for those cases, I just think those cases are constantly touched on to bring in abortion for all.

The last paragraph we will not agree on. You say we use fluffy wording, to me it's a developing baby and I don't think anyone has given a solid argument against that. I got told ' it is developing into a baby it's not a developing baby' and something about a puppy turning into a cat. To my mind at least, that's nitpicking.

Feel away. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. Lots of very early miscarriages are thought to happen because the mothers body recognises foreign protein (fathers DNA) and her immune system causes it to be rejected. It isn’t necessarily that the embryo was unhealthy.

Maybe we should put women of child bearing age on immunosuppressants to save those ‘babies’ too.

kenmc · 19-05-2018 10:25AM

Just her wrote: »

Serious nitpicking again. The abortion will be given is the point. Waiting 3 days is in case someone would change their mind. They'll still get the abortion

It's not nitpicking, it's the actual truth. On demand would mean you say to the doctor "make this gone" and there and then they make it gone. The fact is, that's not going to happen, and any attempt to dress the truth up as this "on demand" crap is an out and out lie

Annasopra · 19-05-2018 10:33AM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

If I am being honest. If I wanted to join a campaign locally to canvas. I'd be associated with none of them. They are both as bad as one another.

I havent seen any local agressive yes campaigners to be honest.

erica74 · 19-05-2018 10:34AM

Can this notion of "instantaneous abortion", which is what posters are trying to suggest with this "abortion on demand" nonsense, just be put to bed once and for all?
Under no circumstances will any woman be able to walk into her GP, ask for an abortion and get one there and then, "no questions asked". That is not going to happen.
Everyone posting here knows that and to suggest it will happen shows incredible stupidity on your part and shows that you haven't done as much research of the actual facts of what is proposed for Ireland.
Maybe spend less time posting nonsense here and more time educating yourself on what is proposed for Ireland.
Just because the No side posters and leaflets say something, that doesn't make it true.

Hotblack Desiato · 19-05-2018 10:36AM

pone2012 wrote: »

brain dead coma victims

There's a huge difference between coma and brain death so you might want to do a little research before pontificating here.

Clair4 · 19-05-2018 10:38AM

erica74 wrote: »

Can this notion of "instantaneous abortion", which is what posters are trying to suggest with this "abortion on demand" nonsense, just be put to bed once and for all?
Under no circumstances will any woman be able to walk into her GP, ask for an abortion and get one there and then, "no questions asked". That is not going to happen.
Everyone posting here knows that and to suggest it will happen shows incredible stupidity on your part and shows that you haven't done as much research of the actual facts of what is proposed for Ireland.
Maybe spend less time posting nonsense here and more time educating yourself on what is proposed for Ireland.
Just because the No side posters and leaflets say something, that doesn't make it true.

I think what posters mean is that the hse are crap with appointments as we know , and this may lead to having abortion on demand past the 12 weeks.

Bannasidhe · 19-05-2018 10:50AM

Clair4 wrote: »

I think what posters mean is that the hse are crap with appointments as we know , and this may lead to having abortion on demand past the 12 weeks.

I disagree (not about the HSE- they are crap). I think posters are trying to make it sound like it will be a drive through McAbortion system where a 'healthy' woman will rock up and demand a termination of her 'healthy baby' at one window, then proceed immediately to the next window where 'murder' will occur and then she'll dance off into the sunset... possibly to go skiing (this has been said ).

As far as I am aware the proposed system up to 12 weeks is for a GP led service where a woman makes an initial appointment, states her reasons to her doctor, then has to return in 72 hours to get her prescription. No real direct HSE involvement unless a surgical termination is required - which is rare before 12 weeks and after 12 weeks will be because there are extreme circumstances.

PhoenixParker · 19-05-2018 10:50AM

Just her wrote: »

I'm reading one of your arguments as abortion on demand ( or abortion after 3 days of demanding, to save some one picking me up on that) should come in because of the hard cases where a baby is going to be lost and people feel this will be easier on them. It's not that I don't have sympathy for those cases, I just think those cases are constantly touched on to bring in abortion for all.

The reason together for yes focus on the hard cases is because it is the hard cases that are actually affected by the 8th amendment, which is after all what we’re voting on.

The pre-12 week cases already get abortions, 3500 a year in the UK and a few thousand more via online pills/false addresses. With a handful of exceptions we have abortion for all, and a constitutionally protected right to travel for abortion.

Those abortions take place without any need to talk to someone about the choice, under high pressure due to time/legal/financial issues. The abortions end up being later, on average, then they should be.

The new law means a woman must talk to her doctor giving an opportunity for counseling to be offered and provided, requires a check of gestation (which ordering pills online doesn’t), removes the now or never pressure and with the destigmatisation will allow many women to genuinely talk through their options in a way they can’t now.

We’re not trying to bring abortion for all.
We have that already.

If you’re voting no to prevent abortion on demand, but have sympathy for the hard cases, then I’d suggest you should be voting yes.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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