8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

screamer · 18-05-2018 02:28PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I've had people telling me they're voting 'no' but don't want to say it out loud in group conversations because it can get very nasty.

I suppose on line debate is all that a lot of us have if we don't want to create irreparable divides between ourselves and friends/colleagues.

Indeed and even on here it can be quite nasty. Still it doesn't change anything so there's no need for it. This is a vote of conscience and we all have different ideas of right and wrong.

spookwoman · 18-05-2018 02:28PM

Can I make a suggestion to the No voters on here that are posting about getting harassed by canvassers and calling them nasty.
There is a phrase "what goes around comes around" so maybe STOP calling women who have abortions murderers and killers.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 02:28PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's like someone working in a respectable job, if they are in the BNP or the KKK or the UVF they would keep it silent too.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 18-05-2018 02:31PM

On another thread on this, apparently Mattie McGrath claimed on Claire Byrne that Yes campaigners were acting against Savita's family's wishes. That's a lie, pure and simple. The only member of her family who has made statement on this referendum has said he's supportive of her name and image being used.

Edit: sorry, that last sentence is incorrect, her mother's made a statement too.

No voters, really really ask yourself, why do the spokespeople for the No campaign keep lying? Lying as in definitively stating things that have happened, didn't, and vice versa. This is a campaign that has zero respect for its voters and their intelligence, no feeling of duty to tell the truth at all. Why?

Grayson · 18-05-2018 02:31PM

Just her wrote: »

Well now if you thought it was going to miscarry or die tell me why go for an abortion. You want to make sure it dies before it becomes sentient as you say. Just to clarify sentient is your argument for abortion. I'm just pointing out how dishonest it is when you know the baby will be sentient very soon. I don't agree with abortion whether or not it is sentient to you.

You cannot dismiss what is not even there you say. Are you saying there is no baby

Just interjecting...

Yes there's no baby. There's a foetus or embryo. Now you can say they're equivalent but don't say that they are the same thing. At least from a linguistic angle they have different definitions, that's why we have different words to name each.
When you call an embryo a baby you are saying it has the same attributes that a baby has. Now if you believe that to be the case, make an argument about that equivalency. But don't jump the gun and assume it is.

SusieBlue · 18-05-2018 02:32PM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

On another thread on this, apparently Mattie McGrath claimed on Claire Byrne that Yes campaigners were acting against Savita's family's wishes. That's a lie, pure and simple. The only member of her family who has made statement on this referendum has said he's supportive of her name and image being used.

No voters, really really ask yourself, why do the spokespeople for the No campaign keep lying? Lying as in definitively stating things that have happened, didn't, and vice versa. This is a campaign that has zero respect for its voters and their intelligence, no feeling of duty to tell the truth at all. Why?

On another thread, two people are claiming that Savita's family didn't want her to have an abortion and had forbidden it.
They heard so on tv.
Sickening.

Dressing gown · 18-05-2018 02:33PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I made it clear that it was a statement made prior to a referendum announcement. But he said he didn't want her name used in relation to the whole issue of pro life views -v- pro choice views.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others - as I have seen concerns expressed on Twitter and in letters to newspapers about her name being used in the campaign -, it is contrary to what her husband obviously wanted.

You can be sure he did not want his wife to die. That is the only thing that is obvious. With regard to the referendum, do you realise he settled his claim against the HSE in 2016 for six figures. One of the grounds was that they had breached his wife’s constitutional right to life. Do you realise as part of that settlement he might not be permitted to comment publicly on the circumstances surrounding her death? Given his relationship with her parents can you not see it is more likely his parents might be speaking on his behalf? But I wouldn’t pretend to know what goes on in his mind.

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/savita-halappanavar-case-settled-for-six-figures-34534933.html

....... · 18-05-2018 02:33PM

This post has been deleted.

screamer · 18-05-2018 02:34PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I've had people telling me they're voting 'no' but don't want to say it out loud in group conversations because it can get very nasty.

I suppose on line debate is all that a lot of us have if we don't want to create irreparable divides between ourselves and friends/colleagues.

Imagine having a political opinion that was so incendiary that it had to be kept secret, because it has the ability to hurt or kill a certain demographic and gender. That's what this is, a NO vote retains the barbaric 8th amendment.

Hmm... I think you need to re read that statement there. A yes vote will kill a certain demographic....... there's no potentials about it. But as I said different ideas of right and wrong in this debate.

....... · 18-05-2018 02:35PM

This post has been deleted.

kanadams123 · 18-05-2018 02:36PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Can I make a suggestion to the No voters on here that are posting about getting harassed by canvassers and calling them nasty.
There is a phrase "what goes around comes around" so maybe STOP calling women who have abortion murderers and killers.

What is that supposed to mean?
I never harrased a YES voter. My cousin is voting YES, yet i never harrased him and shouted abuse at him as well as many other people i know...therefore what did you mean by "what goes around comes around"..i somehow deserved this to happen to me because i am voting no?

Also i never said "nasty" and i made clear these people exist on both yes and no sides. I was just trying to say its uncalled for!

screamer · 18-05-2018 02:39PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fetuses are not a demographic.

Dempographics are based on born citizens.[/quote]
You're right of course, so much easier to salve the old conscience with linguistics. I'll still be voting No.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 18-05-2018 02:42PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

It's mine, and many others', interpretation of his solicitor saying that Savita's husband doesn't want to be embroiled in this issue'. In my opinion using his wife on posters is embroiling him in the issue, and I don't think that's right or respectful.

But I accept others feel differently, as this could go on and on.

Others "feel differently" because of the things her family have actually said, about this actual campaign.

It's my opinion that cats are just dogs in disguise because I'm pretty sure I heard someone say it once, and one time I saw a cat on a lead. I accept others feel differently, no need to discuss it further.

Bannasidhe · 18-05-2018 02:43PM

Grayson wrote: »

I bought a load of yes badges. I don't wear them on my person but I did put them on my bad. The reason is because I work in a building with over 1000 people. I don't mind people knowing my political positions but I think work should be a bit more relaxed. So we I'm out and about they're on display on my bag but when I'm in work they're not visible.

My work place has declared for YES and has leaflets etc all over the place. We did have a NO voter in and it sure didn't stop her voicing her opinion. At length.

I have been wearing Together for Yes tshirts for so long I lend to forget I have one on, leaving me puzzled when people I have never seen before are glowering at me in the street - thankfully that's rare... or so usual I don't even see it anymore :pac:

Usually I get a positive reaction - clerk in the bank told me she can't wait to get out and vote Yes, builder honked his horn and gave me a thumbs up and a cheery wave and that's just this morning.
Strangest encounter was the man who stopped his car as I was mid pooper scooping to say he had just seen the driver of a car with a Love Both sticker empty an ashtray onto the grassy verge but seeing me cleaning up my dog's mess had decided him to vote yes because it showed the kinds of people involved in the two campaigns.
Wasn't even my dog - It's me Dad's

Didn't want to spoil the moment by letting my face show my opinion of this level of reasoning so I smiled and said thank you.

meeeeh · 18-05-2018 02:44PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Can I make a suggestion to the No voters on here that are posting about getting harassed by canvassers and calling them nasty.
There is a phrase "what goes around comes around" so maybe STOP calling women who have abortions murderers and killers.

While I am very suspicious about new posters claiming they were harassed, if such behaviour does exist it will just score points for the other side. And that goes for both sides canvassing. If the diehards on both sides want to sling mud at the other side they will just alienate the middle, people who actually can be persuaded to one or the other side.

Bannasidhe · 18-05-2018 02:45PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Can I make a suggestion to the No voters on here that are posting about getting harassed by canvassers and calling them nasty.
There is a phrase "what goes around comes around" so maybe STOP calling women who have abortions murderers and killers.

A middle aged man took a leaflet off a young woman in Paul Street in Cork yesterday, ripped it up into tiny pieces, and threw it in her face.
Guess which side the leaflet was from...

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2018 02:46PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

It’s possible her husband doesn’t want her name used but there’s been no indication of that from him, AFAIK.

This is probably how I got it into my head!
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/keep-savitas-name-out-of-abortion-row-husband-29096789.html

spookwoman · 18-05-2018 02:48PM

meeeeh wrote: »

While I am very suspicious about new posters claiming they were harassed, if such behaviour does exist it will just score points for the other side. And that goes for both sides canvassing. If the diehards on both sides want to sling mud at the other side they will just alienate the middle, people who actually can be persuaded to one or the other side.

Very suspicious as well especially when thy claim " you will never have children ever anyway because if you vote No you show no respect towards woman" was shouted at them

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 02:49PM

screamer wrote: »

Hmm... I think you need to re read that statement there. A yes vote will kill a certain demographic....... there's no potentials about it. But as I said different ideas of right and wrong in this debate.

Oh.

Has there been a scientific breakthrough? I wasn't aware a foetus at less than 12 weeks was capable of life, as opposed to potentially capable?

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 02:49PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A middle aged man took a leaflet off a young woman in Paul Street in Cork yesterday, ripped it up into tiny pieces, and threw it in her face.
Guess which side the leaflet was from...

I hope it was a NO leaflet.

upandcumming · 18-05-2018 02:50PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A middle aged man took a leaflet off a young woman in Paul Street in Cork yesterday, ripped it up into tiny pieces, and threw it in her face.
Guess which side the leaflet was from...

Who cares... What a fucking idiot.

_Dara_ · 18-05-2018 02:52PM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

On another thread on this, apparently Mattie McGrath claimed on Claire Byrne that Yes campaigners were acting against Savita's family's wishes. That's a lie, pure and simple. The only member of her family who has made statement on this referendum has said he's supportive of her name and image being used.

Edit: sorry, that last sentence is incorrect, her mother's made a statement too.

No voters, really really ask yourself, why do the spokespeople for the No campaign keep lying? Lying as in definitively stating things that have happened, didn't, and vice versa. This is a campaign that has zero respect for its voters and their intelligence, no feeling of duty to tell the truth at all. Why?

Hear hear!

My father is a no voter but he absolutely loathes most of the more prominent no campaigners in this country. He practically spits blood if you mention John McGuirk or Declan Ganley or Mattie McGrath or Maria Steen. He, as much as any yes voter, hates their sanctimonious manner and lies and that they’ll move on to another issue without a backward glance.

Bannasidhe · 18-05-2018 02:52PM

ELM327 wrote: »

I hope it was a NO leaflet.

Guess again.

Ah I'll give you a hint.

The ripper and flinger loves both.

Grayson · 18-05-2018 02:53PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My work place has declared for YES and has leaflets etc all over the place. We did have a NO voter in and it sure didn't stop her voicing her opinion. At length.

I have been wearing Together for Yes tshirts for so long I lend to forget I have one on, leaving me puzzled when people I have never seen before are glowering at me in the street - thankfully that's rare... or so usual I don't even see it anymore :pac:

Usually I get a positive reaction - clerk in the bank told me she can't wait to get out and vote Yes, builder honked his horn and gave me a thumbs up and a cheery wave and that's just this morning.
Strangest encounter was the man who stopped his car as I was mid pooper scooping to say he had just seen the driver of a car with a Love Both sticker empty an ashtray onto the grassy verge but seeing me cleaning up my dog's mess had decided him to vote yes because it showed the kinds of people involved in the two campaigns.
Wasn't even my dog - It's me Dad's
Didn't want to spoil the moment by letting my face show my opinion of this level of reasoning so I smiled and said thank you.

Firstly, I read my post you quoted and I need to buy a new keyboard. I'm missing letters all over the place.

I do have the urge to high five everyone I see with a yes badge/sticker.

It's just that in work don't want people to feel uncomfortable there.

I've seen a few people with love both badges on the street and when I do I want to talk to them. Just has a polite discussion about why they're voting no. I've never done that though because it could be seen as harassment and everyone is entitled to their own space.

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2018 02:53PM

If I am being honest. If I wanted to join a campaign locally to canvas. I'd be associated with none of them. They are both as bad as one another.

....... · 18-05-2018 02:54PM

This post has been deleted.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 02:55PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Guess again.

Ah I'll give you a hint.

The ripper and flinger loves both.

Ah.
typical. And the result doesn't impact the love boat flipper but it impacts the flippee quite a lot by virtue of their respective demographics

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-05-2018 03:03PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Firstly I very much doubt he's unaware of the referendum.

Secondly I've explained my understanding of what he said, while acknowledging that others might interpret it differently and my interpretation isn't necessarily the only or right one.

Do you want to keep coming back and back and back and back to it, nit picking, asking the same question, tilting your head this way and that, haranguing me to keep saying the same thing over and over while you keep disputing it?

gandalf · 18-05-2018 03:03PM

I've been out campaigning for repeal and we have been given clear instructions to be courteous to those who have views differing to us. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from petty name-calling.

From my experience everyone we have engaged with the exception of a couple of the no campaigners have also been friendly and the adamant no's tend to say "I've already made my mind up".

gmisk · 18-05-2018 03:03PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

If I am being honest. If I wanted to join a campaign locally to canvas. I'd be associated with none of them. They are both as bad as one another.

I would have liked to join the local yes campaign but I wouldnt feel I have the knowledge or confidence to knock on doors.
I have however donated (three time) bought badges, and talked to friends etc.

I think its a shame though, the yes side who knocked on my door could not have been any nicer.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Comments