8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Grayson · 18-05-2018 01:54PM

kylith wrote: »

I think that political debates should be without audience, with each side given a period of time to present their case, then a recess, and another set period to address their opponents’ remarks, then that’s it.

No hollaring from the audience, no shouting over someone.

I would have kicked out any audience member that disrupted the proceedings.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 01:55PM

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Anyone got stats on referendums backed by the government (of the day) that have failed to pass?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_failed_amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 18-05-2018 01:56PM

FFA discussion on liveline right now.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 02:00PM

http://www.thejournal.ie/letterkenny-white-crosses-4020751-May2018/
Anger at white crosses 'symbolising a child's grave' along Letterkenny roads

This is horrendous, I honestly didnt think the No side could get any lower in my estimation.
So insensitive.

Sandor Clegane · 18-05-2018 02:06PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/letterkenny-white-crosses-4020751-May2018/
Anger at white crosses 'symbolising a child's grave' along Letterkenny roads

This is horrenous, I honestly didnt think the No side could get any lower in my estimation.
So insensitive.

They should line those crosses outside their local church instead, they have more children deaths attached to them than anyone, but I suppose that's different.

kanadams123 · 18-05-2018 02:06PM

Hi all..i am pro life and i am very strong in my opinions on voting No.

Now, there is something that i really hope both Yes and No voters can agree on and thats that some campaigners on both sides need to "chill out a bit"...i mean the more aggressive sort campaiginers now..not all!

I am saying this because on my way home today, and i was collecting my 5 year old nephew from school and walking into town with him..we were approached by two yes campaigners who asked me was i old enough to have a vote. I said yes and that i was already on the register and that I would be voting NO.
Immediatley they were shocked and tried using my age (i am only 18 since december) as a factor...they said i was not informed at all. However i am well capable of making my own choices and i definitly did reasearch before i made any choice.
I briefly explained this to them but they were getting quite loud..and wouldnt let me speak.

I decided i wasnt gonna put up with this aggressive manner and told them i was leaving..and as i was one of them shouted something along the lines of " you will never have children ever anyway because if you vote No you show no respect towards woman"
I was shocked..and remember..my 5year old nephew was there too...listening to these comments towards me..

I was shocked..and quite afraid after that encounter..i do not appreciate the way they targeted me as i was a young student..

That was my experience with a few yes campaingers..and i know they dont represent all of them as a whole. I am also well aware that there were some incidents between yes voters and no campaigners as well..but again not all are agressive.

Rant Over..sorry..i just really had to say my part in this.

kiers47 · 18-05-2018 02:07PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/letterkenny-white-crosses-4020751-May2018/
Anger at white crosses 'symbolising a child's grave' along Letterkenny roads

This is horrendous, I honestly didnt think the No side could get any lower in my estimation.
So insensitive.

Maybe their superiors in long capes could have stuck a few of them down in Tuam.

erica74 · 18-05-2018 02:07PM

gmisk wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/letterkenny-white-crosses-4020751-May2018/
Anger at white crosses 'symbolising a child's grave' along Letterkenny roads

This is horrendous, I honestly didnt think the No side could get any lower in my estimation.
So insensitive.

Another own goal by the No side.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-05-2018 02:07PM

neonsofa wrote: »

There was no referendum when he made that statement so it couldn't have been in reference to the referendum.

I made it clear that it was a statement made prior to a referendum announcement. But he said he didn't want her name used in relation to the whole issue of pro life views -v- pro choice views.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others - as I have seen concerns expressed on Twitter and in letters to newspapers about her name being used in the campaign -, it is contrary to what her husband obviously wanted.

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2018 02:07PM

I added a poll!
Decided to make it a little different.

_Dara_ · 18-05-2018 02:09PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I made it clear that it was a statement made prior to a referendum announcement. But he said he didn't want her name used in relation to the whole issue of pro life views -v- pro choice views.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many others - as I have seen concerns expressed on Twitter and in letters to newspapers about her name being used in the campaign -, it is contrary to what her husband obviously wanted.

You have yet to back that up.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-05-2018 02:09PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Kinda undermines your argument, yknow practice what you preach and all that, but whatever floats your boat!

Seriously? I was deliberately making a sweeping statement to point out how unfair they are. I assumed that posters would 'get' that, but obviously you didn't.

....... · 18-05-2018 02:11PM

This post has been deleted.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-05-2018 02:15PM

kanadams123 wrote: »

Hi all..i am pro life and i am very strong in my opinions on voting No.

Now, there is something that i really hope both Yes and No voters can agree on and thats that some campaigners on both sides need to "chill out a bit"...i mean the more aggressive sort campaiginers now..not all!

I am saying this because on my way home today, and i was collecting my 5 year old nephew from school and walking into town with him..we were approached by two yes campaigners who asked me was i old enough to have a vote. I said yes and that i was already on the register and that I would be voting NO.
Immediatley they were shocked and tried using my age (i am only 18 since december) as a factor...they said i was not informed at all. However i am well capable of making my own choices and i definitly did reasearch before i made any choice.
I briefly explained this to them but they were getting quite loud..and wouldnt let me speak.

I decided i wasnt gonna put up with this aggressive manner and told them i was leaving..and as i was one of them shouted something along the lines of " you will never have children ever anyway because if you vote No you show no respect towards woman"
I was shocked..and remember..my 5year old nephew was there too...listening to these comments towards me..

I was shocked..and quite afraid after that encounter..i do not appreciate the way they targeted me as i was a young student..

That was my experience with a few yes campaingers..and i know they dont represent all of them as a whole. I am also well aware that there were some incidents between yes voters and no campaigners as well..but again not all are agressive.

Rant Over..sorry..i just really had to say my part in this.

I totally agree, and well said. I know feelings are running high over this, but some of the aggression (from both sides), insulting, name calling, hate filled bile, shouting over anyone who doesn't agree with you, sneering, nastiness, oneupmanship etc has been shocking. Obviously the vast majority of people don't behave like this, but the ones that do are a significant minority and should really take a long, hard look at themselves.

Shouting, screaming, intimidating and bullying others does not in any way constitute debate.

freshpopcorn · 18-05-2018 02:15PM

I'll be honest here I had the same thing in my head as BellaBella but when I saw her father saying he'd vote Yes I just said they changed their minds!

....... · 18-05-2018 02:17PM

This post has been deleted.

18-05-2018 02:17PM

kanadams123 wrote: »

Hi all..i am pro life and i am very strong in my opinions on voting No.

Now, there is something that i really hope both Yes and No voters can agree on and thats that some campaigners on both sides need to "chill out a bit"...i mean the more aggressive sort campaiginers now..not all!

I am saying this because on my way home today, and i was collecting my 5 year old nephew from school and walking into town with him..we were approached by two yes campaigners who asked me was i old enough to have a vote. I said yes and that i was already on the register and that I would be voting NO.
Immediatley they were shocked and tried using my age (i am only 18 since december) as a factor...they said i was not informed at all. However i am well capable of making my own choices and i definitly did reasearch before i made any choice.
I briefly explained this to them but they were getting quite loud..and wouldnt let me speak.

I decided i wasnt gonna put up with this aggressive manner and told them i was leaving..and as i was one of them shouted something along the lines of " you will never have children ever anyway because if you vote No you show no respect towards woman"
I was shocked..and remember..my 5year old nephew was there too...listening to these comments towards me..

I was shocked..and quite afraid after that encounter..i do not appreciate the way they targeted me as i was a young student..

That was my experience with a few yes campaingers..and i know they dont represent all of them as a whole. I am also well aware that there were some incidents between yes voters and no campaigners as well..but again not all are agressive.

Rant Over..sorry..i just really had to say my part in this.

so, is that what they did actually say or was it something along the lines of that?

it would be important if you are going to complain about their behaviour

gmisk · 18-05-2018 02:18PM

kanadams123 wrote: »

I decided i wasnt gonna put up with this aggressive manner and told them i was leaving..and as i was one of them shouted something along the lines of " you will never have children ever anyway because if you vote No you show no respect towards woman"
I was shocked..and remember..my 5year old nephew was there too...listening to these comments towards me..

That is really not acceptable, there is no need for aggressive behavior on either side.
I had a friend report similar aggressive behaviour towards her from a No canvasser.

There is no need for this kind of nonsense at all, after this referendum is over we are all still going to have to live in the same country regardless.

Assetbacked · 18-05-2018 02:18PM

kanadams123 wrote: »

Hi all..i am pro life and i am very strong in my opinions on voting No.

Now, there is something that i really hope both Yes and No voters can agree on and thats that some campaigners on both sides need to "chill out a bit"...i mean the more aggressive sort campaiginers now..not all!

I am saying this because on my way home today, and i was collecting my 5 year old nephew from school and walking into town with him..we were approached by two yes campaigners who asked me was i old enough to have a vote. I said yes and that i was already on the register and that I would be voting NO.
Immediatley they were shocked and tried using my age (i am only 18 since december) as a factor...they said i was not informed at all. However i am well capable of making my own choices and i definitly did reasearch before i made any choice.
I briefly explained this to them but they were getting quite loud..and wouldnt let me speak.

I decided i wasnt gonna put up with this aggressive manner and told them i was leaving..and as i was one of them shouted something along the lines of " you will never have children ever anyway because if you vote No you show no respect towards woman"
I was shocked..and remember..my 5year old nephew was there too...listening to these comments towards me..

I was shocked..and quite afraid after that encounter..i do not appreciate the way they targeted me as i was a young student..

That was my experience with a few yes campaingers..and i know they dont represent all of them as a whole. I am also well aware that there were some incidents between yes voters and no campaigners as well..but again not all are agressive.

Rant Over..sorry..i just really had to say my part in this.

There is a trend among society among certain people to model themselves as champions of social justice and see themselves as beacons of resistance to societal norms. Unfortunately, the reality is that these are just angry individuals who are obsessed with rebelling for the sake of rebelling and attaching labels to themselves. Intelligent debate is outside of their remit and instead they "block" unwanted opinions and views which confront their own, reducing issues to black-and-white "my way or the high way". Campaigning for the "Yes" vote in the upcoming referendum has attracted a large proportion of these individuals and it appears you met some of them outside of your nephew's school.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-05-2018 02:18PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's mine, and many others', interpretation of his solicitor saying that Savita's husband doesn't want to be embroiled in this issue'. In my opinion using his wife on posters is embroiling him in the issue, and I don't think that's right or respectful.

But I accept others feel differently, as this could go on and on.

_Dara_ · 18-05-2018 02:18PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I'll be honest here I had the same thing in my head as BellaBella but when I saw her father saying he'd vote Yes I just said they changed their minds!

It’s possible her husband doesn’t want her name used but there’s been no indication of that from him, AFAIK.

PressRun · 18-05-2018 02:19PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

I've been thinking this too. If someone is surrounded by pro lifers (particularly the more militant ones) they know they could get a fairly unpleasant response if they dared to question it. I don't think No voters are as likely to be silent this time as they will be more confident that their position is seen as reasonable compared to the SSM ref. There could be a decent amount of silent Yeses amongst the older generation and in conservative areas.

My mam told me that a couple of people her age from work have told her quietly that they're voting Yes, but they don't talk openly about it and they don't want to speak to canvassers. A lot of people are just private about their politics. They're not activists or anything, and they don't really want to have a debate about the things they believe.

gmisk · 18-05-2018 02:21PM

Assetbacked wrote: »

There is a trend among society among certain people to model themselves as champions of social justice and see themselves as beacons of resistance to societal norms. Unfortunately, the reality is that these are just angry individuals who are obsessed with rebelling for the sake of rebelling and attaching labels to themselves. Intelligent debate is outside of their remit and instead they "block" unwanted opinions and views which confront their own, reducing issues to black-and-white "my way or the high way". Campaigning for the "Yes" vote in the upcoming referendum has attracted a large proportion of these individuals and it appears you met some of them outside of your nephew's school.

I would say some of the same things are true of some of those campaigning for a "No" vote as well.
It doesnt make it acceptable for either side to behave in this type of manner, it is horrible behaviour.

I would also say trying to champion social justice isnt exactly a bad thing, it is more the manner it is done in.
Societal norms like?

ArmaniJeanss · 18-05-2018 02:21PM

Heres some recent (April '18) quotes from Savitas mother in the Bangalore Mirror by the way, no direct endorsement of her image being used but a fairly clear statement that she should be remembered during the debate.

https://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/cover-story/not-may-12-and-not-may-15-savitas-family-is-waiting-for-may-25/savitha-2/articleshow/63765712.cms

"If the Irish people vote in favour of abortion, it shall be a big victory for my dear daughter, Savita.”
"No girl should suffer like my daughter did. It is surprising that many people came to know about the stringent Irish laws (surrounding pregnancy and abortion) only after my daughter died in such sad circumstances. I feel that this injustice should not happen to any other woman in this world and I hope the people of Ireland will remember the pain of women and mothers who have suffered due to this law.”

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 18-05-2018 02:23PM

I've had people telling me they're voting 'no' but don't want to say it out loud in group conversations because it can get very nasty.

I suppose on line debate is all that a lot of us have if we don't want to create irreparable divides between ourselves and friends/colleagues.

....... · 18-05-2018 02:24PM

This post has been deleted.

ELM327 · 18-05-2018 02:25PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I've had people telling me they're voting 'no' but don't want to say it out loud in group conversations because it can get very nasty.

I suppose on line debate is all that a lot of us have if we don't want to create irreparable divides between ourselves and friends/colleagues.

Imagine having a political opinion that was so incendiary that it had to be kept secret, because it has the ability to hurt or kill a certain demographic and gender. That's what this is, a NO vote retains the barbaric 8th amendment.

Grayson · 18-05-2018 02:26PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I've had people telling me they're voting 'no' but don't want to say it out loud in group conversations because it can get very nasty.

I suppose on line debate is all that a lot of us have if we don't want to create irreparable divides between ourselves and friends/colleagues.

I bought a load of yes badges. I don't wear them on my person but I did put them on my bad. The reason is because I work in a building with over 1000 people. I don't mind people knowing my political positions but I think work should be a bit more relaxed. So we I'm out and about they're on display on my bag but when I'm in work they're not visible.

....... · 18-05-2018 02:26PM

This post has been deleted.

Just her · 18-05-2018 02:27PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Well yes it kinda is, because anything can happen. You do not know it will not miscarry or die or anything else. You ASSUME it will become sentient, and probability is on your side for sure, but an assumption it remains.

Meanwhile we have an ACTUAL sentient agent, the pregnant mother, here in the present. And not only do I see any reason to afford rights, or moral and ethical concern, to an entity that is not sentient and MIGHT be in the future.......... I certainly do not see any validation coming from you as to why we should do that at the expense of the only sentient agent we can coherently have concern for. The one that exists.

Again I can not "dismiss" what is not even there. You are inventing a narrative for me I do not hold. Which is not exactly an honest move from you.

Neither do I use sentience because I "like" it. So please do not belittle an argument you do not understand. I do so because it is the only coherent mediation point anyone in any conversation so far has offered as workable when evaluating what we should value, why we should value it, what "rights" are, what they are for, and what it means to hold moral and ethical concern for another being other than oneself.

There is no philosophical argument being offered, other than your personal gut feeling, why there is any moral onus on us to think an entity that is not sentient has a right to become such. You seem to want to assume that move is true, without explaining why. Me, not so much.

Well now if you thought it was going to miscarry or die tell me why go for an abortion. You want to make sure it dies before it becomes sentient as you say. Just to clarify sentient is your argument for abortion. I'm just pointing out how dishonest it is when you know the baby will be sentient very soon. I don't agree with abortion whether or not it is sentient to you.

You cannot dismiss what is not even there you say. Are you saying there is no baby/foetus there now is it? So why go for an abortion if there is nothing there to abort, or if the baby/foetus that is there is going to miscarry/die anyway.

You know there was a post a while back and the poster was very honest about his opinion. He said something to the extent of , yes he knew there is a baby there and he doesn't have a problem with it being aborted and that he knows that most pregnancies would go on to have healthy babies but he is still ok with abortion.
I have to give him credit again for his honesty, it's hard to come by around here. Flowery language and denial that there is anything in a pregnant woman's womb at all seems to be how it is on this thread.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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