8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

joe40 · 17-05-2018 02:07PM

Just her wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

Which is not a baby. It is developing into one.

A baby which is developing, what's the big difference? If you get in on time you can prevent it from being born and and tell yourself it's ok? Is like the sentient argument. If you just get in a couple of weeks earlier and terminate it's existence that's ok? If I had a termination my child wouldn't be here now. I would have terminated its existence. Not a bunch of cells or a non sentient non human creature. My child. If it wasn't my child I had terminated then they would be here whether I had a termination or not.

I have a question that I would love for someone from the pro life side to answer.
If abortion is the "taking of a human life" or tantamount to murder if not actual murder for some people.

What would you propose should be an appropriate punishment for this crime?

Simple question, I would love a simple answer.
I don't expect an answer though, haven't seen one yet.

erica74 · 17-05-2018 02:08PM

kylith wrote: »

Hang in, sonthey’re arguing from a HUMAN RIGHTS basis? NOT a religious one? Then they’re outside their remit and should not be using their status as a religious charity to campaign.

Also... didn't the UN say our current laws violate our human rights?

Sofiztikated · 17-05-2018 02:08PM

trixi001 wrote: »

.
I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

An abusive partner that could just as easily kick her in the stomach?

meeeeh · 17-05-2018 02:09PM

RobertKK wrote: »

She didn’t distinguish between when a miscarriage happened.

It was in the context of taking abortion pills and that can be only done in early stages of pregnancy. So yes it was very much distinguished between early and late term miscarriage.

freshpopcorn · 17-05-2018 02:10PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Could you provide a link to the full discussion, not the entire show but just the discussion leading up to this heavily edited snippet, so we can understand the context in which the sentence was said?

I take it it's some where in there!
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-30003251/10879919/

Just her · 17-05-2018 02:12PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

The hair splitting had become beyond ridiculous.

Ok, its a baby. Its a baby from the moment Daddy (possibly Granddaddy as well in certain criminal violations) rolls over and wipes the tip in his underpants.

I know its a human baby, 97% of which are very likely to reach term and be born as a baby. At 12 weeks though, that baby is incapable of independent existence and for me that makes it entirely the host woman's business about whether or why she chooses to continue her pregnancy - in any circumstances.

So to No siders, lots of people feel as I do and no philosophical argument is going to scratch the surface of changing our views.

Thanks for the honest post. I suppose that's what I was trying to get to the bottom of. Do people view it as a human baby and still choose to end its existence. I felt like other posters where trying to avoid the reality of abortion , I don't know if that is to avoid the reality of it so they can accept it better themselves or so others will accept it better and vote accordingly.

neonsofa · 17-05-2018 02:13PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

I take it it's some where in there!
https://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-30003251/10879919/

Well since Robert seemed to believe it was of relevance I was hoping he could just provide a longer clip of it rather than me having to watch the whole show :pac:

Neyite · 17-05-2018 02:14PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Ruth Coppinger from the Yes side said a miscarriege is really like a heavy period.

https://twitter.com/mandygall7/status/996895713161306113?s=21

She's right. The vast majority are before 12 weeks and are just like a heavy clotty, more painful period and later weeks (8-12) it's possible to sometimes feel passing the embryo. Before that, you won't feel it expelling from your body as it's too small. It

usually slips out when you go to the toilet and is around the u-bend before you realise it's out.

I know because I've had a few of them. Maybe she also is speaking from experience like I am?

Where it is different from a period is that the emotional side is different. You are losing a pregnancy which if wanted, can be a very sad time. Your hopes and dreams that you had since the pregnancy test are literally dripping away.

But my losses are in no way comparable with women who have a second trimester loss, or full term loss. Miscarriage is unfortunately very common. It's thought that 20% at least of pregnancies end in natural miscarriage. So you'll be hard pressed to find a woman who hasn't experienced one if they intended to have children.

joe40 · 17-05-2018 02:14PM

trixi001 wrote: »

I am very much a no supporter, as I do not believe in abortion on demand.

I do have significant concerns regarding the health care given to pregnant women, but I firmly believe this is down to medical guidelines.

The law (and the constitution) allows for abortion where the life of the mother is a risk, the risk does not have to be imminent, it just has to be real and substantial (ie in cases of cancer, abortion is allowed by the constitution, so that cancer treatment can be provided)

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make, as someone for whom having a child with a FFA is a real possibility, I do not support repealing the 8th and then having to decide which is the best outcome, giving birth to my son or daughter and watching them die or not even giving them the chance to be born?

Abortion is a very emotive subject, and is not the same as the same sex marriage.

Same sex marriage effected only the couple getting married, abortion affects more, if you view the unborn as a child, abortion obviously affects them, it affects fathers or potential fathers, it is not the same as the Same Sex Marriage, and a number of people who supported SSM (including me) will not be supporting repealing the 8th

So you are saying that because you would not like to have to make the decision, that is grounds for not allowing anyone to make that decision for themselves in that situation.
Does that not strike you as a bit selfish.

....... · 17-05-2018 02:15PM

This post has been deleted.

Undividual · 17-05-2018 02:15PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

trixi001 wrote: »

.
I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

An abusive partner that could just as easily kick her in the stomach?

Not just as easily. One would be legal and the other wouldn't.

kylith · 17-05-2018 02:16PM

erica74 wrote: »

kylith wrote: »

Hang in, sonthey’re arguing from a HUMAN RIGHTS basis? NOT a religious one? Then they’re outside their remit and should not be using their status as a religious charity to campaign.

Also... didn't the UN say our current laws violate our human rights?

You know, that does ring a bell.

Sofiztikated wrote: »

An abusive partner that could just as easily kick her in the stomach?

Or order pllls online, or force her to travel, or try to restrict her travelling, as detailed in some IHS stories.

....... · 17-05-2018 02:18PM

This post has been deleted.

17-05-2018 02:18PM

trixi001 wrote: »

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make

1ST point, then you are a YES voter, as the 8th amendment does not allow termination on the grounds of significant harm, only death.

2Nd point, why in the world would anyone force you to have an abortion? pro choice is the CHOICE to decide

SireOfSeth · 17-05-2018 02:25PM

trixi001 wrote: »

I am very much a no supporter, as I do not believe in abortion on demand.

I do have significant concerns regarding the health care given to pregnant women, but I firmly believe this is down to medical guidelines.

The law (and the constitution) allows for abortion where the life of the mother is a risk, the risk does not have to be imminent, it just has to be real and substantial (ie in cases of cancer, abortion is allowed by the constitution, so that cancer treatment can be provided)

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make, as someone for whom having a child with a FFA is a real possibility, I do not support repealing the 8th and then having to decide which is the best outcome, giving birth to my son or daughter and watching them die or not even giving them the chance to be born?

Abortion is a very emotive subject, and is not the same as the same sex marriage.

Same sex marriage effected only the couple getting married, abortion affects more, if you view the unborn as a child, abortion obviously affects them, it affects fathers or potential fathers, it is not the same as the Same Sex Marriage, and a number of people who supported SSM (including me) will not be supporting repealing the 8th

I guess it comes down to choice and women having (or not) rights over their own bodies. The 8th just doesn’t work as we all know. As best it just moves it to England and elsewhere. You will not be forced to have an abortion in the future, however, by voting No you will be forcing other women to stay pregnant against their will.

SusieBlue · 17-05-2018 02:25PM

antiskeptic wrote: »

9 days after the law was changed. You can hardly blame the 8th for any delay. government had since 1983 to legislate for foreseeable cases.
The key question is whether you think it would happen now. If so, would you be interested in finding out whether it was "a hospital not wanting to be first" or a failure of clinical guidelines or a problem with the law that could be rectified.
Remember, replacing the 8th with an amendment doesn't mean there won't be insufficient law, poor guidelines, failure to follow clinical practices. In such cases, will you be focused on the poor guidelines or will you be blaming the amendment?
Let me guess.

The hospital not wanting to be first is neither here nor there.
The fact of the matter is that the woman in question received COMPROMISED healthcare even after the law changed.
No lessons were clearly learned from Savita. There is no reason to assume this won't happen again.
Public opinion and the law didn't stop it from happening before.

A woman who's socio-economic circumstances have changed? If it's good enough reasons for 11 weeks, why can't it be good enough reason at 17 weeks?

You are being disingenuous now. The situation we were discussing was whether a woman who had a 5% risk to her health should be allowed an abortion.
Now you're making it about socio-economic reasons.
You are being deliberately obtuse and misleading.

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-05-2018 02:28PM

_Dara_ wrote: »

I personally think No will win. I think that many undecideds in that clip are being quite reticent.

That has been my prediction too for some time. And what worries me is that from Brexitt, to Scotish Independence, to SSM, to Trump, to Catalonoia to many more I have not gotten a prediction wrong in quite some time.

I am certainly hoping to break my streak next week. I am also starting to question why I never put money on any of them.

It is there to be lost though. We do not even have to change any more minds. We just have to motivate the people who want a yes vote to ACTUALLY vote. But I do not think there is any election in my memory where that has not been true.

That is the problem with polls. They are quite good at polling what people want to see happen. They entirely suck at predicting how many of those people are motivated enough to go and actually vote for it though. And my feeling is the NO side has the motivation, if not the arguments and reasoning, to their advantage.

Losing referendums is not the end of the world though. There are many paths forward following a no vote and I for one have the dedication and stamina to engage with them.

trixi001 · 17-05-2018 02:30PM

joe40 wrote: »

trixi001 wrote: »

I am very much a no supporter, as I do not believe in abortion on demand.

I do have significant concerns regarding the health care given to pregnant women, but I firmly believe this is down to medical guidelines.

The law (and the constitution) allows for abortion where the life of the mother is a risk, the risk does not have to be imminent, it just has to be real and substantial (ie in cases of cancer, abortion is allowed by the constitution, so that cancer treatment can be provided)

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

I recognize that there are a number of hard cases - such as rape and FFA, however repealing the 8th will lead to hard cases such as a young pregnant woman being forced into an abortion by an abusive partner.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make, as someone for whom having a child with a FFA is a real possibility, I do not support repealing the 8th and then having to decide which is the best outcome, giving birth to my son or daughter and watching them die or not even giving them the chance to be born?

Abortion is a very emotive subject, and is not the same as the same sex marriage.

Same sex marriage effected only the couple getting married, abortion affects more, if you view the unborn as a child, abortion obviously affects them, it affects fathers or potential fathers, it is not the same as the Same Sex Marriage, and a number of people who supported SSM (including me) will not be supporting repealing the 8th

So you are saying that because you would not like to have to make the decision, that is grounds for not allowing anyone to make that decision for themselves in that situation.
Does that not strike you as a bit selfish.

I am saying that I don't know if I have the right to deny my child a few weeks or a few hours of life?

It strikes me that it would be selfish for me to deny them that short life, because I think it would be the lesser of 2 evils to terminate my pregnancy now, than to continue it and give birth to a seriously ill baby.

What would be the criteria be for deciding what is a FFA - how short of a life must a baby be expected to have for it to be a FFA?

We would love a child, but the possibility of this is too real for us

retro:electro · 17-05-2018 02:31PM

Just her wrote: »

Thanks for the honest post. I suppose that's what I was trying to get to the bottom of. Do people view it as a human baby and still choose to end its existence. I felt like other posters where trying to avoid the reality of abortion , I don't know if that is to avoid the reality of it so they can accept it better themselves or so others will accept it better and vote accordingly.

I think it’s the opposite. It’s the No voters who seem to think that the amendment is single handedly saving babies when it is doing anything but. The 8th was brought in to prevent abortion, and did it succeed? No it did not. The reality is abortions are happening anyway. So while all the No voters seem to think they’re an army of baby savers; the reality is they’re not saving any babies. Not only that, but they’re not saving any women either. In fact, they’re making life incredibly difficult and restrictive for women who face the most difficult of personal circumstances. Love Both indeed. :rolleyes:

The reality is women shouldn’t have to be dying in order to have their rights prioritied. Right now the only pregnant women Ireland prioritises above a foetus is the woman who is dying. The woman who is only kind of dying but not dead enough will have to die a little more before she can receive life saving care, and by then it could be too late. So while you feel the Yes side are trying to avoid the reality of abortion, I feel the No side are trying to avoid reality full stop.

wexie · 17-05-2018 02:32PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

They are arguing against abortion on a human rights basis, but your point was that as a publicly funded charity they should not be allowed take a view. My point was that as a publicly funded charity set up to promote religious and family values in Ireland it is within their remit to take a stance on abortion. It is a totally different scenario from the Project Arts issue.

I think you're probably confusing me with another poster.

I certainly wouldn't have made such a polite point when it comes to those bigots and as far as I'm concerned they have no business whatsoever getting any public funding

Hotblack Desiato · 17-05-2018 02:32PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Has anybody seen Love Both stickers on cars?
I am amazed at seeing so many of them.(about 10) In the marriage referendum I only saw a few from either side.

They're probably giving them out at mass at this stage.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 17-05-2018 02:34PM

kylith wrote: »

Hang in, sonthey’re arguing from a HUMAN RIGHTS basis? NOT a religious one? Then they’re outside their remit and should not be using their status as a religious charity to campaign.

No they're arguing the stance of the Catholic Church on abortion as a human rights issue. They're not simply saying, it's a sin so no one should do it. They have a human rights argument to back it up.

So it's not like, for instance, trying to make it the law that everyone has to go to Mass on Sunday, or abstain from eating meat on Good Friday. They're purely theological rules, abortion has a human rights dimension.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 17-05-2018 02:34PM

wexie wrote: »

I think you're probably confusing me with another poster.

I certainly wouldn't have made such a polite point when it comes to those bigots and as far as I'm concerned they have no business whatsoever getting any public funding

What exactly, is the point of this post?

SusieBlue · 17-05-2018 02:35PM

trixi001 wrote: »

I am saying that I don't know if I have the right to deny my child a few weeks or a few hours of life?
It strikes me that it would be selfish for me to deny them that short life, because I think it would be the lesser of 2 evils to terminate my pregnancy now, than to continue it and give birth to a seriously ill baby.
What would be the criteria be for deciding what is a FFA - how short of a life must a baby be expected to have for it to be a FFA?
We would love a child, but the possibility of this is too real for us

I appreciate your confusion on the matter, for your own personal situation.

The thing is though, not everyone with an FFA pregnancy is uncertain. Most are able to come to a decision about how want to proceed.

For some, they use the remainder of the pregnancy as time spent with their baby. They use it to come to terms with the loss, and prepare for all that is to come.
Other people are ready to say goodbye when they get their diagnosis, because they have accepted the inevitable and they can't continue the pregnancy knowing the outcome.

Both forms of grief are acceptable and both should be accommodated for. Everyone grieves differently.
However, only one set of those scenarios is catered to by Irish law.

And it is no more humane to force a woman to gestate an FFA pregnancy that she wants to terminate, than it is to force an induction on a woman with an FFA pregnancy that she wants to carry to term.
Both women should be looked after. Everyone grieves differently.

Just her · 17-05-2018 02:36PM

neonsofa wrote: »

A dead/dying person generally has all the same parts as a living person. Doesn't mean they're alive and well.[/quote

How is a dead or dying person equivalent to an unborn baby. No one is going out of their way to end their existence. Presumably you are talking of someone dying of natural causes.

wexie · 17-05-2018 02:36PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

What exactly, is the point of this post?

You were attributing an opinion or post to me, I'm just letting you know you were doing that wrongly

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

They are arguing against abortion on a human rights basis, but your point was that as a publicly funded charity they should not be allowed take a view. My point was that as a publicly funded charity set up to promote religious and family values in Ireland it is within their remit to take a stance on abortion. It is a totally different scenario from the Project Arts issue.

See? Not my point. If anything my point would have been they shouldn't be a publicly funded organisation

meeeeh · 17-05-2018 02:37PM

trixi001 wrote: »

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make, as someone for whom having a child with a FFA is a real possibility, I do not support repealing the 8th and then having to decide which is the best outcome, giving birth to my son or daughter and watching them die or not even giving them the chance to be born?

I stated earlier that having an early miscarriage didn't feel like loosing a baby, I meant that physically, there is no kicking, there is nothing that you see like a baby there. But I was petrified of ever having a late term miscarriage. But even worse it would feel complete torture to carry child till birth knowing it can't survive. Telling your other kids that no this baby won't live, thanking people when they congratulate you knowing there is nothing but pain there for you and in wast majority of cases for the baby. You have an option of not having to decide, you can do nothing. While those who would like me find carrying a baby with FFA a torture have no right to decide. Being against something because you don't want a responsibility of making a decision is childish. It might sound harsh but we make decisions for kids, adults should be able to take responsibilities for our own decisions. It might be hard but that is no reason to oppose abortion in cases of FFA.

trixi001 · 17-05-2018 02:38PM

bubblypop wrote: »

trixi001 wrote: »

I have no objection to the life of the mother also including the quality of life - ie: if continuing the pregnancy is going to cause significant harm to the health of the mother, that it drastically affects her quality of life (long term), then I do support her being allowed an abortion.

For FFA, who decides what is a FFA, my sister lived for only 6 weeks after she was born, should I have the right to deny a child of mine 6 weeks of life? My mum declined scans with her 2 future children, as she didn't want to know if they had the same condition.
If I have children, there is a significant chance they could have the same condition as my sister, in current Ireland the default position is that I continue with the pregnancy as normal and have my child, if the 8th is repealed will the default be abortion? It is not a decision I would want to make

1ST point, then you are a YES voter, as the 8th amendment does not allow termination on the grounds of significant harm, only death.

2Nd point, why in the world would anyone force you to have an abortion? pro choice is the CHOICE to decide

I am not a yes voter - on balance I believe a no vote is the lesser of 2 evils, the referendum is not about changing the wording of the 8th to recognize the right not to cause significant harm of the mother, it is too fully repeal the 8th amendment.
The plan is to then introduce abortion on demand, which I will never be comfortable with.
Yes, no one would ever force me to have an abortion, but it will be expected in cases of FFA, I wonder how many pregnancies where an FFA is found in the UK proceed to full term?
Even back in the 1980's the doctors placed significant pressure on my mother to have an amniocentitous test to see if her children had the same condition as my sister that died - she was strong enough to resist that pressure as there was a risk of miscarriage, and she would not have travelled to England for an abortion regardless, so the test was subjecting her and her baby to pointless risk,

nozzferrahhtoo · 17-05-2018 02:38PM

neonsofa wrote: »

A dead/dying person generally has all the same parts as a living person.

Just her wrote: »

How is a dead or dying person equivalent to an unborn baby.

I am genuinely starting to wonder if you read the things you reply to. The answer to your question is RIGHT THERE in the text you are replying to.

The users point is that "having parts" is not informative or relevant. A fetus at 12 weeks, a child, an adult, and a corpse all have essentially the same "parts".

What relevance you think those "parts" have is what is in question.

dudara · 17-05-2018 02:39PM

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Has anybody seen Love Both stickers on cars?
I am amazed at seeing so many of them.(about 10) In the marriage referendum I only saw a few from either side.

One of them tried to push me off the road recently, when I was signaling to merge. Let’s say I was surprised

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Comments