8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-05-2018 03:42PM

Yes, I can see my use of the word 'inconvenience' was wrong. Sincere apologies for that.

What I meant was, if you see a foetus as a living human being, then it's impossible to be pro choice as it will mean women also having abortions for reasons that are not life threatening. Hugely life altering, certainly, and definitely not an easy road, but for me ending a baby's life can't be justified because of that.

I would love to see a national conversation around the whole area of adoption, and changing the fostering situation as it is at the moment so children aren't dragged around from one foster home to the other. There's a lot more that could be done for girls who get pregnant and are just not in the right place, practically or emotionally to take on the responsibility of rearing a child. But for me, abortion just isn't the right answer.

....... · 16-05-2018 03:43PM

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ohnonotgmail · 16-05-2018 03:43PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Yes, I can see my use of the word 'inconvenience' was wrong. Sincere apologies for that.

What I meant was, if you see a foetus as a living human being, then it's impossible to be pro choice as it will mean women also having abortions for reasons that are not life threatening. Hugely life altering, certainly, and definitely not an easy road, but for me ending a baby's life can't be justified because of that.

I would love to see a national conversation around the whole area of adoption, and changing the fostering situation as it is at the moment so children aren't dragged around from one foster home to the other. There's a lot more that could be done for girls who get pregnant and are just not in the right place, practically or emotionally to take on the responsibility of rearing a child. But for me, abortion just isn't the right answer.

So the answer is to force women to stay pregnant who dont want to? Because that is what you are proposing.

dudara · 16-05-2018 03:46PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

That's my point really. There will be women who will choose to end their baby's life because it is inconvenient to have a baby. That certainly doesn't sit easy with me. Lots of things irrevocably change a person's life, and I don't think that is a reason to end another human's life. And yes, I know a lot of posters will come on here and say 'it's not a baby/human' etc. But to me it is, so there is no way I would ever see an abortion so that a girl could continue her studies, does not want to be a mother as okay.

I don't think anybody should be forced to bring up a child, and I do think it's a shame that so few babies are available for adoption any more. On that subject, a few people have posted that the realities of adoption are not fully understood. I'm genuinely interested in clarification on that. Obviously there will be stories of some adoptions which haven't worked out, just as there will be non adopted adults who will have stories of difficult childhoods. But I would have grown up at a time when many of the girls I went to school with, kids on the road etc would have been adopted and they all seemed to have happy childhoods and grow up to be normal adults.

I do agree that situations where vulnerable children are passed from foster home to foster home because a parent refuses to consent to adoption are wrong. That is definitely an area that needs reform.

Aniya Moldy Trowel, I appreciate your answer and the thought that has gone into it. You clearly have empathy for the situation.

However, I haven’t gotten a clear answer from you on what is the central point for me. Do you want to force a woman, against her will, to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want?

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-05-2018 03:49PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

So the answer is to force women to stay pregnant who dont want to? Because that is what you are proposing.

Yes, it is. Not force them to rear the child, but not allow them to end it's life if their own life isn't being threatened as a result of the pregnancy. I realise it's not ideal, but for me it's the lesser of two evils.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-05-2018 03:49PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Someone trolling.

Nope. It's from the "Dumb / Great Facebook Statuses" thread on AH. It's one of the less illiterate ones anyway. The last line about laughing was added on by the AH poster.

16-05-2018 03:50PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Yes, I can see my use of the word 'inconvenience' was wrong. Sincere apologies for that.

What I meant was, if you see a foetus as a living human being, then it's impossible to be pro choice as it will mean women also having abortions for reasons that are not life threatening.

Do you really believe that your life ( I am assuming you are female) or my life should actually be threatened before I can avail of medical treatment?
I know my family, friends, partner all belive me to be more important than an unknown unborn. I definately believe I am more importanty than an unkown unborn.
do you not think that you are?

ohnonotgmail · 16-05-2018 03:51PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Yes, it is. Not force them to rear the child, but not allow them to end it's life if their own life isn't being threatened as a result of the pregnancy. I realise it's not ideal, but for me it's the lesser of two evils.

Force women to go through 9 months of pregnant #LoveBoth

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-05-2018 03:51PM

dudara wrote: »

BellaBella, I appreciate your answer and the thought that has gone into it. You clearly have empathy for the situation.

However, I haven’t gotten a clear answer from you on what is the central point for me. Do you want to force a woman, against her will, to carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want?

Hi

I've answered it in my post above. As I said, it's not ideal but for me ending a life (and to me it is a life) is a bigger injustice.

....... · 16-05-2018 03:51PM

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16-05-2018 03:52PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Yes, it is. Not force them to rear the child, but not allow them to end it's life if their own life isn't being threatened as a result of the pregnancy. I realise it's not ideal, but for me it's the lesser of two evils.

seriously ???
You really believe that forcing women to be pregnant & give birth is reasonable?

seamus · 16-05-2018 03:52PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

What I meant was, if you see a foetus as a living human being, then it's impossible to be pro choice as it will mean women also having abortions for reasons that are not life threatening. Hugely life altering, certainly, and definitely not an easy road, but for me ending a baby's life can't be justified because of that.

I guess this is something that people don't really think about all that much. Unless you consider a foetus to be a "living human being" from conception, then you are probably pro-choice. The only difference is at what stage you confer the title "living human being" on it.

I would love to see a national conversation around the whole area of adoption, and changing the fostering situation as it is at the moment so children aren't dragged around from one foster home to the other. There's a lot more that could be done for girls who get pregnant and are just not in the right place, practically or emotionally to take on the responsibility of rearing a child. But for me, abortion just isn't the right answer.

This is something that's said a lot, but it's never done. Anti-abortion groups talk a lot about supports and education, but never do anything to promote them. So while they continue to resist abortion, nothing ever gets done to put "alternatives" in place. Does it not make more sense to provide for abortion, and then work towards putting these supports in place, so as to minimise and reduce the incidence of abortion?

It's like saying, "We don't need safety equipment at work if we just educate everyone properly in how to be safe", and then neither educating people nor providing safety equipment.

And at the end of the day, there are cases where support and education is simply not an option. Where abortion is the only option. These cannot be ignored.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-05-2018 03:53PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Do you really believe that your life ( I am assuming you are female) or my life should actually be threatened before I can avail of medical treatment?
I know my family, friends, partner all belive me to be more important than an unknown unborn. I definately believe I am more importanty than an unkown unborn.
do you not think that you are?

In what way? Do I think someone should be forced to completely change their life around for an unwanted baby? No.
Do I think they should be allowed to end the life of that baby? No

That's why I said I'd like to see a conversation around adoption and fostering.

....... · 16-05-2018 03:53PM

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Dressing gown · 16-05-2018 03:53PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Yes, I can see my use of the word 'inconvenience' was wrong. Sincere apologies for that.

What I meant was, if you see a foetus as a living human being, then it's impossible to be pro choice as it will mean women also having abortions for reasons that are not life threatening. Hugely life altering, certainly, and definitely not an easy road, but for me ending a baby's life can't be justified because of that.

I would love to see a national conversation around the whole area of adoption, and changing the fostering situation as it is at the moment so children aren't dragged around from one foster home to the other. There's a lot more that could be done for girls who get pregnant and are just not in the right place, practically or emotionally to take on the responsibility of rearing a child. But for me, abortion just isn't the right answer.

THanks Bella Bella. You are absolutely right that more should be done to help people with crisis pregnancies and I respect your view that you don’t agree with abortion. But whether you or me or anyone else likes it abortion is here and it is not going anywhere. Jokes about it going abroad aside, the stats on medical abortions (ones where pills are used) are only going to go up, not down. That means abortions happening here in Ireland are going to go up, not down. IF it were legal here, we could have and would have far greater access to counselling services for women. This might help some women decide not to have an abortion. And it would certainly help those process what has happened to them if they did have an abortion. As a nation we are closing the door on so many Irish women. They can do it with or without doing it safely. There is no easy answer but voting no will not stop it from happening. Having an open country where abortion can be discussed and dealt with more freely will help to reduce abortion; the worldwide stats support that claim.

16-05-2018 03:53PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Hi

I've answered it in my post above. As I said, it's not ideal but for me ending a life (and to me it is a life) is a bigger injustice.

Is there anytime that you believe taking a life is justified?
And I am not talking about just abortion here, in general.

wexie · 16-05-2018 03:55PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I would love to see a national conversation around the whole area of adoption, and changing the fostering situation as it is at the moment so children aren't dragged around from one foster home to the other. There's a lot more that could be done for girls who get pregnant and are just not in the right place, practically or emotionally to take on the responsibility of rearing a child. But for me, abortion just isn't the right answer.

While I truly believe that the 8th needs to be repealed I absolutely agree with you on this as well.

I think really how I would phrase it is that we need to try to find the best possible outcome for all involved, that sits best with their situation, their morals and their conscience. Abortion will be a part of that for some. But doesn't take away from the fact we still need to look at increasing adoption rates and outcomes, and support for pregnant mothers etc. etc. etc.

Friends of mine ended up spending a ludicrous amount of money (well in excess of a deposit on a nice 4 bed house) to adopt a child from abroad because it simply wasn't possible in Ireland

I do absolutely draw the line though at forcing a pregnancy/child on someone that doesn't want it. I can't for the life of me see how that's ever supposed to turn out well. Maybe it does sometimes, but we need to be aiming for more than 'sometimes'.

ohnonotgmail · 16-05-2018 03:55PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

In what way? Do I think someone should be forced to completely change their life around for an unwanted baby? No.
Do I think they should be allowed to end the life of that baby? No

That's why I said I'd like to see a conversation around adoption and fostering.

But still force the women to continue with the pregnancy. I really dont know how you can square that circle in your mind.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-05-2018 03:55PM

bubblypop wrote: »

seriously ???
You really believe that forcing women to be pregnant & give birth is reasonable?

I've stated honestly how I feel and why.

I'm not going to keep saying it over and over and over.

I realise and accept that you don't agree with me.

So we will be voting differently from each other on Friday week.

16-05-2018 03:56PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

In what way? Do I think someone should be forced to completely change their life around for an unwanted baby? No.
Do I think they should be allowed to end the life of that baby? No

That's why I said I'd like to see a conversation around adoption and fostering.

in the way that if your are pregnant, your medical treatment depends on what affect it will have on the feotus.
Is it fair that women cannot get to decide their own treatment?

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 16-05-2018 03:56PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

But still force the women to continue with the pregnancy. I really dont know how you can square that circle in your mind.

I realise that.

But equally I just cannot understand how you think it's okay to end a conceived baby's life.

But we're not going to sort out our polarised positions by re-iterating our views again and again on here.

Neyite · 16-05-2018 03:57PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Hi

I've answered it in my post above. As I said, it's not ideal but for me ending a life (and to me it is a life) is a bigger injustice.

How far would you be comfortable for the state to go in order to preserve that life?

If you've got a woman who is adamant she would rather die than carry a pregnancy any further, what do you think authorities should do? Or adamant that she WILL find a way to expel the baby from her.

Should she be involuntarily sectioned to prevent her doing harm to herself and to the foetus? To term?

You've every right to hold your views, but I'd like to see those that do explain a little more about how those views would work in reality.

SusieBlue · 16-05-2018 04:04PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

In what way? Do I think someone should be forced to completely change their life around for an unwanted baby? No.
Do I think they should be allowed to end the life of that baby? No

That's why I said I'd like to see a conversation around adoption and fostering.

Do you accept that forcing birth and parenthood on an unwilling woman who does not want a baby is not in the best interests in either women or innocent babies?

And if you do accept this, can you not see why its a bit hypocritical to claim to be pro-life and to LoveBoth when your stance actually doesn't consider the kind of life the child will be born into, and has no consideration for the welfare or standard of living for either the mum or child?

I don't disagree that the adoption and fostering process is in serious need of reform.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-05-2018 04:05PM

Vicxas wrote: »

Personally i find the REPEAL camp inherently unlikeable. While they dont spew the hilariously OTT sh!te that the NO side does, they attract the worst kind of people to their cause.

Ehh, thanks...

The reason i'm voting yes is because i'd hate to see happen again what happened Savita, i'd hate for a husband/boyfriend/life partner to be told that the little bundle of joy that she has been carrying around is killing her and there's nothing you can do about is as its a "Catholic" country.

It made me sick back then and still grinds my gears now.

Agreed but sadly there are many more cases and many more lives ruined or shortened by the 8th. Too many stories to tell.

Billy86 · 16-05-2018 04:09PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Force women to go through 9 months of pregnant #LoveBoth

And as evidenced yesterday, when you ask the 'loveboth' crowd what they have done to help these women after the child has been born, they don't react particularly positively and even claim to take offense to such a notion.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-05-2018 04:10PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

That's why I said I'd like to see a conversation around adoption and fostering.

You can converse all you like, but you won't find 4000 suitable adoptive or foster families per year, no way.

So you can either sell the babies off to rich Americans, or put them into orphanages.

That's the reality. The only thing preventing this from happening is the fact that Irish women can access abortion in Britain or via illegal pills.

PressRun · 16-05-2018 04:13PM

spookwoman wrote: »

Just saw this which is stooping to even lower levels by the no side. The No side have brought out their own booklet that resembles a government publication :mad:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-campaign-defends-booklet-resembling-a-government-publication-1.3496559

I'm not in Ireland at the moment, so can't see first hand exactly what's going on, but it certainly sounds like the No people are grasping at straws at this stage. Between tearing down posters, acting like maniacs on national television, rolling out fake nurses and now a fake government publication. They're not winning the arguments on the doorsteps, that's how I'm seeing it.

wexie · 16-05-2018 04:14PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

I realise that.

But equally I just cannot understand how you think it's okay to end a conceived baby's life.

But we're not going to sort out our polarised positions by re-iterating our views again and again on here.

I think it probably depends on your personal ideas of when 'life' starts.

If you truly believe it starts at conception then that's okay, and you certainly seem to have given it some thought and if you start your reasoning from that point it's a logical conclusion.

I don't believe life starts at conception and from what I can tell it's very much an idea promoted and driven by religion (not saying you are religious, just that I think that is where the idea comes from) and I don't subscribe to it.

I also don't subscribe to the idea that someone who is brain dead should be kept alive at all costs, they are no longer alive.

FWIW as far as I know nobody has yet been able to give a definitive answer for when 'life' starts. So you're right it's not a discussion we're going to answer here on Boards (even though everybody seems to be on their best behaviour today, personally I think we should all get gold stars from the mods)

Billy86 · 16-05-2018 04:14PM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You can converse all you like, but you won't find 4000 suitable adoptive or foster families per year, no way.

And even if you could, the cost not only of the fostering but also the many, many supports these children tend to need would be absolutely astronomical.

erica74 · 16-05-2018 04:15PM

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Yes, it is. Not force them to rear the child, but not allow them to end it's life if their own life isn't being threatened as a result of the pregnancy. I realise it's not ideal, but for me it's the lesser of two evils.

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

Hi

I've answered it in my post above. As I said, it's not ideal but for me ending a life (and to me it is a life) is a bigger injustice.

For you.

Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »

In what way? Do I think someone should be forced to completely change their life around for an unwanted baby? No.
Do I think they should be allowed to end the life of that baby? No

That's why I said I'd like to see a conversation around adoption and fostering.

And as I asked already, what are you or any of the No side doing to start that conversation? There's thousands of suitable families needed. And let me just point out, in order to be "suitable" one parent from the adoptive family must not be working in order to be successful in adopting a child in Ireland.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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