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8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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  • #6842
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Here's an article on the then attorney general's advice on the 8th before it was inserted. All these things the 8th was "never intended" to do, all these "hard cases" which nobody intended to be affected, all the "unforseeable" cases like X, Y, Savita, the rest of the alphabet which people take huge exception to blaming the 8th for, ALL OF THIS was foreseen and the government and the public very explicitly warned and the stupid thing was voted in anyways. That was a monumental mistake and the only way to fix it is to repeal. Legislation can be changed.

    www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/peter-sutherland-s-1983-advice-on-the-eighth-amendment-1.3353263%3fmode=amp


  • #6843
    Shadowstrife
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83 ✭✭Shadowstrife


    Where are all these Pro- Life ads people keep chatting about? Are you all still using Chrome?

    Switch to Firefox, with AdBlock Plus. Zero ads you will see anywhere. Just do it.


  • #6844
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Aniya Moldy Trowel wrote: »
    However, allowing abortion for all pregnancies up to 12 weeks is not, in my view, the answer, as it will lead to the aborting of healthy foetuses being carried by healthy mothers.

    Yes, it could lead to that. But perhaps for very valid reasons. The woman does not want to be a mother, is studying, is persuing her career, does not have enough money, is not in a stable relationship. There are many reasons why women might persue an abortion.

    What you are saying is that you believe in making women mothers against their will. You are taking away her choice and self-determination. You may be irrevocably changing her life. Are you OK with that, genuinely?


  • #6845
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    Flying Fox wrote: »
    Spoke to a guy in his early 40s yesterday, he told me he's voting No because he knows that girls are using abortion as an excuse to go for a weekend away in England. His teenage son then says "if you make it legal they'll all be doing it". ow do you even attempt to get through to people like this?

    The father is lost to the No side - for a grown adult to share such tosh, he's a lost cause.

    The son on the otherhand will hopefully have his eyes widened by his own social circle and girlfriend/boyfriend/peer group. A short sharp No to sex in case of pregnancy will have him pulling his neck in and changing his mind.


  • #6846
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,372 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Shadowstrife wrote: »
    Where are all these Pro- Life ads people keep chatting about? Are you all still using Chrome?

    Switch to Firefox, with AdBlock Plus. Zero ads you will see anywhere. Just do it.

    I use Chrome daily and never see ads for either side on any site I use.


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  • #6847
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Dressing gown wrote: »
    Do we as a nation respect the laws of this land or not? If we do, we should be campaigning for their enforcement. That includes the 8th amendment. That means prosecuting all of those women that are and continue to take abortion pills in Ireland. If you vote no you are voting for that to happen. For the law not to be enforced makes a mockery of the law. If you don’t think it’s right for women to be sentenced to 14 years for taking abortion pills you should vote yes. This referendum is a legal question. The abortion debate comes after and we can battle that out with our government.

    The 8th amendment can be kept and the law could be changed to a fine rather than a jail term.
    Leo Varadkar was scaremongering yesterday saying women would likely be prosecuted if a no vote - despite it not happening at present, and despite the fact that people like Leo Varadkar could change the penalty if he wanted to.


  • #6848
    Uncharted
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭Uncharted


    At this stage of the game,I'd imagine there will be little to no movement of people's deep seeded opinions.
    People who actually know enough on this topic to hold an opinion, are already entrenched in it.

    I hope the older demographic use their votes,particularly the older male voter. The last few vox pops have sounded extremely disappointing regarding this.

    There seemed to be an air of "its not my problem,I'm too old for that racket".


  • #6849
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The 8th amendment can be kept and the law could be changed to a fine rather than a jail term.
    Leo Varadkar was scaremongering yesterday saying women would likely be prosecuted if a no vote - despite it not happening at present, and despite the fact that people like Leo Varadkar could change the penalty if he wanted to.
    Didn’t they try to change it to a nominal fine and were voted down?


  • #6850
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    kylith wrote: »
    Didn’t they try to change it to a nominal fine and were voted down?

    I don't remember them trying.


  • #6851
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The 8th amendment can be kept and the law could be changed to a fine rather than a jail term.
    Leo Varadkar was scaremongering yesterday saying women would likely be prosecuted if a no vote - despite it not happening at present, and despite the fact that people like Leo Varadkar could change the penalty if he wanted to.

    in that instance the constitution would say that the right to life of the unborn was absolute and the law would not support that, ie there is no punishment for violating that right.
    I guess it could put an end to conversations that abortion=murder. Would anti choice campaigners be satisfied that a pregnancy can be terminated for a fine? like running a red light? or would he try and change the law to a fine and the wrath of the church and anti choice brigade come down upon him?


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  • #6852
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The 8th amendment can be kept and the law could be changed to a fine rather than a jail term.
    Leo Varadkar was scaremongering yesterday saying women would likely be prosecuted if a no vote - despite it not happening at present, and despite the fact that people like Leo Varadkar could change the penalty if he wanted to.

    Why in the world would we do that? Are you suggesting that women should be prosecuted but fined not imprisoned?
    I don't see any scaremongering. Look what happened in northern Ireland, all it takes is for someone to make a complaint to gardai that their friend, sister, girlfriend etc had taken abortion pills. Then we will see someone prosecuted.


  • #6853
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    kylith wrote: »
    Didn’t they try to change it to a nominal fine and were voted down?

    RobertKK wrote: »
    I don't remember them trying.


    I think it just couldn't get the support. It was because the rights given to the unborn/embryo warrant a custodial sentence. Otherwise the law doesn't make sense. You can't define abortion as a type of killing without having a punishment that fits the crime.

    Honestly i don't get pro lifers who say it should be a fine or we shouldn't punish women. The 8th defines a foetus in such a way that it has to be punished in a particular manner. And if a person honestly believes it's murder then I can't see why they wouldn't want the woman punished accordingly.

    Edit: Here is the article about it Robert.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bill-to-cut-penalty-for-abortion-to-1-defeated-in-d%C3%A1il-1.3004516


  • #6854
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »
    kylith wrote: »
    Didn’t they try to change it to a nominal fine and were voted down?

    I don't remember them trying.
    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bill-to-cut-penalty-for-abortion-to-1-defeated-in-dáil-1.3004516?mode=amp


  • #6855
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The 8th amendment can be kept and the law could be changed to a fine rather than a jail term.

    No, it really can't.

    The 8th guarantees the equal right to life of the unborn. That means the punishment must be comparable to the punishment for murder.

    A number of TDs already tried this in the Dail, and the AG said it would not be constitutional.

    We could add another clause like the 13th, though. Something like: "Nothing in this section shall be invoked to invalidate any law about anything as if we really meant this, it is entirely symbolic hypocrisy and we never had a notion of enacting it in the real world".


  • #6856
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    RobertKK wrote: »
    The 8th amendment can be kept and the law could be changed to a fine rather than a jail term.
    Leo Varadkar was scaremongering yesterday saying women would likely be prosecuted if a no vote - despite it not happening at present, and despite the fact that people like Leo Varadkar could change the penalty if he wanted to.

    Would you support such a change?

    It kind of flies in the face of the Pro-life position that life is precious if the fine for ending it is akin to speeding or littering.


  • #6857
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Grayson wrote: »
    I think it just couldn't get the support. It was because the rights given to the unborn/embryo warrant a custodial sentence. Otherwise the law doesn't make sense. You can't define abortion as a type of killing without having a punishment that fits the crime.

    Honestly i don't get pro lifers who say it should be a fine or we shouldn't punish women. The 8th defines a foetus in such a way that it has to be punished in a particular manner. And if a person honestly believes it's murder then I can't see why they wouldn't want the woman punished accordingly.

    Edit: Here is the article about it Robert.
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bill-to-cut-penalty-for-abortion-to-1-defeated-in-d%C3%A1il-1.3004516

    Well moving from 14 years in jail to €1 was always going to fail. That is not a penalty to discourage anything. It wouldn't stop any offense in law.


  • #6858
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    amcalester wrote: »
    Would you support such a change?

    It kind of flies in the face of the Pro-life position that life is precious if the fine for ending it is akin to speeding or littering.

    Yes but a realistic fine. Not a symbolic fine which was defeated. Don't ask me how much as I am not an expert in fines and what level is a deterrent.

    btw speeding can kill so it is serious when a person is breaking speed limits.


  • #6859
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    RobertKK wrote: »

    Yes but a realistic fine. Not a symbolic fine which was defeated. Don't ask me how much as I am not an expert in fines and what level is a deterrent.
    Do you think a woman who can’t afford to travel to the U.K. could afford a ‘realistic’ fine?


  • #6860
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes but a realistic fine. Not a symbolic fine which was defeated. Don't ask me how much as I am not an expert in fines and what level is a deterrent.

    if you believe the life of the unborn is truly equal to that of the mother then you shouldn't be able to put a monetary value on it.


  • #6861
    Hurrache
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,372 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    Cora Sherlock on News at 1 on RTE radio 1 now, to not answer questions that listeners have put to her.


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  • #6862
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,637 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes but a realistic fine. Not a symbolic fine which was defeated. Don't ask me how much as I am not an expert in fines and what level is a deterrent.

    btw speeding can kill so it is serious when a person is breaking speed limits.

    What happens if the fine isn't paid? Some may choose to not pay it to stir the pot. Don't you then get a conviction?

    And, not just the woman, what about the Dr., who might have multiple fines levied?

    Sorry, the legal side of this really matters and you're suggesting pie-in-the-sky that won't work. Just repeal the eighth and let a real debate begin, not farcical shouting matches like the other night. In the Dail.


  • #6863
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    if you believe the life of the unborn is truly equal to that of the mother then you shouldn't be able to put a monetary value on it.

    People put values on their own lives with life insurance. Courts with compensation involving death.


  • #6864
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,543 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is quite sickening really, considering what we have had to uncover in this country.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/no-campaign-defends-booklet-resembling-a-government-publication-1.3496559

    Elements of the No side seem to favour getting this over the line any which way they can in an effort to pretend we are a morally upstanding haven. The truth doesn't matter.
    Despicable behaviour.


  • #6865
    RobertKK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,771 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Igotadose wrote: »
    What happens if the fine isn't paid? Some may choose to not pay it to stir the pot. Don't you then get a conviction?

    And, not just the woman, what about the Dr., who might have multiple fines levied?

    Sorry, the legal side of this really matters and you're suggesting pie-in-the-sky that won't work. Just repeal the eighth and let a real debate begin, not farcical shouting matches like the other night. In the Dail.

    The government have talked about bringing in a system for the collection of fines.
    Through the tax system, social welfare, other payments by the state.


  • #6866
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    RobertKK wrote: »
    People put values on their own lives with life insurance. Courts with compensation involving death.

    I'll rephrase then. If you truly think the life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother you shouldn't be able to put a monetary value on the ending of said life.

    ie it would be even more farcical than the current situation to have a mandatory jail term for the killing of one, but a monetary fine for the other


  • #6867
    Dressing gown
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 212 ✭✭Dressing gown


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes but a realistic fine. Not a symbolic fine which was defeated. Don't ask me how much as I am not an expert in fines and what level is a deterrent.

    btw speeding can kill so it is serious when a person is breaking speed limits.

    Robert thanks for being honest and engaging in this discussion. The whole thing is horrible to be honest. Despite being a yes voter the concept of abortion makes me squeamish too. But being a mum and having had a hard time of it at that I just can’t endorse a law that forces women to become mothers. I think you are half way there too as it’s clear you don’t want women punished for becoming pregnant. There are women that are at breaking point. Loving mothers that just cannot cope with another baby and child to care for. She has other children to think of. She is not selfish, she just knows her limits. She is desperate. I know you are grappling with this and I know you will probably stay a no, but if there is a niggling voice in you asking you to reconsider please listen to it.


  • #6868
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,948 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Uncharted wrote: »
    I hope the older demographic use their votes,particularly the older male voter. The last few vox pops have sounded extremely disappointing regarding this.

    There seemed to be an air of "its not my problem,I'm too old for that racket".

    You see it as disappointing, I see it as very hopeful.

    There's many an auld fella farming that has the pragmatism to understand that mother nature can go wrong and that gestating farm animals in difficulty get better maternity care than their fellow Irishwoman.


  • #6869
    Grayson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,780 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Uncharted wrote: »
    There seemed to be an air of "its not my problem,I'm too old for that racket".

    I remember during the divorce referendum some people saying they were voting no because they didn't want a divorce.

    Unfortunately there will be some who vote for either side who will do so for the dumbest of reasons.


  • #6870
    Frank Bullitt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,921 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    Cora Sherlock was just on the radio there for the NO side (what media bias?)

    She is not against travel, accessing information by post or the net, or the importation of abortion pills.

    What kind of position is this? She also wouldn't directly answer the question about if she would allow a woman to have access to abortion in the cases of rape, where she said she "knew people" who had given birth after a rape and were glad they did...

    She is just another moron with no morals to just flat out say she is happy for Irish women to remain in danger in Ireland.


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  • #6871
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    RobertKK wrote: »
    Yes but a realistic fine. Not a symbolic fine which was defeated. Don't ask me how much as I am not an expert in fines and what level is a deterrent.

    btw speeding can kill so it is serious when a person is breaking speed limits.

    I wasn't aware that an amendment had been suggested already and defeated, I just thought that suggesting a fine (of any value) as punishment for ending a life is a strange position to take for a Pro-Life supporter.

    Completely agree re: speeding, but there are other charges that can be brought against people who kill others while speeding such as dangerous driving causing death which carries the same penalties as manslaughter.


This discussion has been closed.
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