Stallions

WickIow Brave · 13-01-2018 02:47PM

Minding, Winter, and Promise To Be True being covered by Deep Impact. Wow.

diomed · 14-01-2018 12:04AM

WickIow Brave wrote: »

Minding, Winter, and Promise To Be True being covered by Deep Impact. Wow.

I now expect three Shadai mares to be covered by Galileo, or some other deal.
My guess is there is a lot of swapping stallion seasons / shares / percentages in the business.

diomed · 14-01-2018 12:32AM

GillLebowski wrote: »

Just wondering, anybody know of anywhere I can get a list of all the different horses a stallion has sired.

If I was looking at checking every horse that has been sired by Frankel, is there anywhere I can check this?

Anyone know anywhere I can check if a trainer has has any horses sired by a horse, or whether a sire's progeny are racing with a certain trainer?

The Return of Mares published annually by Weatherbys gives the information (UKP64).
Frankel 2016 coverings of regestired mares 104
Frankel 2017 coverings of registered mares 173
Frankel 2017 coverings of unregistered mares 22
It gives a full listing of all mares covered, but not much detail
e.g. SUN BITTERN (USA) - Barronstown Stud
https://www.bettrendsshop.co.uk/books/weatherbys/return-mares-package-2017

It is unclear from your question if you are talking flat or jumps sires, previous sires or retired sires, Irish sires or sires from other countries.
If you are looking for all horses a sire has ever sired you will never get the full picture.
pedigreequery.com will give many of them, but about 30% of foals will never go to trainers. Many will be culled, and be unnamed.
Previously the General Stud Book had a list in the back of the mares bred to a sire but they dropped those lists years ago.

There was an annual book called Horses In Training that gave the horses.
Many trainers were not in the book. I never saw Ballydoyle horses in it.
The Racing Calender has the info, but it is expensive.

Yearlings are bought in the bloodstock sales late in the calendar year.
It would be tricky to find out from sales results which trainers got which sales yearlings.
Trainers may not buy themselves, but have bloodstock agents buying for them so you would not know who was getting the purchases.
If you are a glutton for punishment you could download the Excel files for Tattersalls, Goffs, Arqana and find all the sold yearlings by sires.
And of course some top owners would have their own studs, sending some to the sales, and some horses directly to trainers.

GillLebowski · 14-01-2018 06:07AM

diomed wrote: »

The Return of Mares published annually by Weatherbys gives the information (UKP64).
Frankel 2016 coverings of regestired mares 104
Frankel 2017 coverings of registered mares 173
Frankel 2017 coverings of unregistered mares 22
It gives a full listing of all mares covered, but not much detail
e.g. SUN BITTERN (USA) - Barronstown Stud
https://www.bettrendsshop.co.uk/books/weatherbys/return-mares-package-2017

It is unclear from your question if you are talking flat or jumps sires, previous sires or retired sires, Irish sires or sires from other countries.
If you are looking for all horses a sire has ever sired you will never get the full picture.
pedigreequery.com will give many of them, but about 30% of foals will never go to trainers. Many will be culled, and be unnamed.
Previously the General Stud Book had a list in the back of the mares bred to a sire but they dropped those lists years ago.

There was an annual book called Horses In Training that gave the horses.
Many trainers were not in the book. I never saw Ballydoyle horses in it.
The Racing Calender has the info, but it is expensive.

Yearlings are bought in the bloodstock sales late in the calendar year.
It would be tricky to find out from sales results which trainers got which sales yearlings.
Trainers may not buy themselves, but have bloodstock agents buying for them so you would not know who was getting the purchases.
If you are a glutton for punishment you could download the Excel files for Tattersalls, Goffs, Arqana and find all the sold yearlings by sires.
And of course some top owners would have their own studs, sending some to the sales, and some horses directly to trainers.

Thanks for that... Some interesting stuff there but not really what I was looking for. I'm looking for a way to find all of Keith Dalgleish's horses who's sire is Bushranger, and a way of doing this for different trainers and sires.

tryfix · 17-01-2018 02:38AM

GillLebowski wrote: »

Thanks for that... Some interesting stuff there but not really what I was looking for. I'm looking for a way to find all of Keith Dalgleish's horses who's sire is Bushranger, and a way of doing this for different trainers and sires.

I used to be a very happy chappy when I got my copy of the Horses In Training every year before the Internet revolution. It gave the pedigree and trainer of every horse in training even when they were unnamed 2yos.

I'd be pretty sure that there's an online version of Horses In Training these days, which should by this stage have some excellent features for breaking down the data in manageable units such as age, sire, trainer etc.

Start searching under horses in training and see where it gets you.

diomed · 24-01-2018 02:54AM

Stats here
http://www.the-racehorse.com/stats/stallion/frankel/2017/14163/

Francie Barrett · 15-04-2018 02:59AM

After The Pentagon bombed today on heavy ground (admittedly), I am hopeful that the chances of Saxon Warrior making an attempt at the Derby have increased. Aidan has said this is his Guinea's horse, but I am hoping he changes his mind. I have liked this horse a lot from what I have seen of it last year - it has the form, and the breeding to run in the Derby.

tryfix · 18-04-2018 02:01PM

Hot on the heels of Giants Causeway's death, another leading sire Dansili has been pensioned off at the age of 22 due to declining fertility.

There's been a host of deaths of familiar sires this year. Arc winner Trempolino made it 34 years of age but died in March. Elusive Quality who had been pensioned off died at the age of 25. Dubawi's best stallion son Poet's Voice died in March at the tender age of 11.

Jakkalberry died in New-Zealand at the age of 12 in February. Thewayyouare also passed in February at the age of 13.

diomed · 21-04-2018 07:27AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKPRXxCv5bc

tryfix · 30-04-2018 10:56PM

Camelot gets his first "classic winner" as Wait Forever takes the Italian 2,000 Guineas. At least he's not just a sire of slow boats.

tryfix · 05-05-2018 06:10PM

From the 2,000 Guineas thread.

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Trifix et al, has the game dun changed? In terms of deep impact etc someone write a massive post on the stallions thread please

The result is a continuation of the dominance of the Galileo line. Since Frankel became Galileo's first 2,000 winner in 2011 there has only been one winner of the 2,000 who hasn't been a son or grandson of Galileo with 3 of the last 5 winners being out of Galileo mares.

The game hasn't changed, European racing isn't going to be flooded with Deep Impacts.

What has changed is the urgency with which the Galileo outcross problem has to be addressed by Coolmore. Coolmore are bursting at the seams with high quality Galileo broodmare prospects, broodmares from blue hen bloodlines that will supply huge quantities of black type performers.

Galileo differs from other top sires such as Dubawi in that Galileo's stock don't need time to mature, they are ready for top two year old races and the classics . That kind of sire ( Sadlers Wells and Danehill ) gave Coolmore a stranglehold over the European breeding industry. When Galileo goes there had better be a replacement waiting in Coolmore.

There isn't one there that we know about. All the fabulous Scat Daddys and War Fronts are not suitable sires for producing multiple middle-distance champions. Something like Australia needs to end up being a top sire for Coolmore to find a new champion sire.

As I understand it Coolmore have some kind of right to send a certain amount of mares to Deep Impact every year. That's why they ended up breeding Saxon Warrior, it was more good fortune than brilliant planning.

Saxon Warrior as a son of multiple Champion Sire Deep Impact out a group 1 winning 2yo could easily be turned into Champion Sire material if he goes and wins the Derby or some other top races. He's still not an outcross for the Galileo line but if he was the real deal Coolmore wouldn't be too worried about that.

How far can Coolmore go with the Deep Impact line? It's not like they can just pop down the road and buy a clatter of them to race. They cost an absolute fortune and the Japanese bloodlined ones they could shell out for aren't necessarily going to work in European racing.

They'll just keep sending him as many mares as they are allowed to and work from there, for now they have an outstanding new sire line to offer breeders. Of the few Deep Impacts that O'Brien has trained they are mainly outstanding looking animals ( although September is small ).

Personally I think that Coolmore need to really get behind Fastnet Rock and get a top two year old son of his to stud in Ireland.

paddy no 11 · 05-05-2018 08:11PM

Thanks love this thread even if I don't have a scoobie on breeding

(They were allowed call a horse scat daddy!!!!)

tryfix · 06-05-2018 01:01AM

So You think had his 4th individual Gp 1 winner yesterday in Australia where he's a great success. Here he's somewhere between woeful and adequate.

Mgoraf · 10-05-2018 10:35AM

Any info on the book of mares Camelot covered this year?

See he's had a classic winner and classic place from his first crop, albeit in Italy.

Mgoraf · 12-05-2018 05:31PM

Dawn approach has the fav for the French 1000 guineas tomorrow

kiers47 · 14-05-2018 03:43PM

Declaration of War had his first classic winner with his first crop this weekend in the Poulains. Olmedo i thought he won a with a bit in hand and idled plenty when getting to the leaders.

He looks another ideal type for the Prix Du Jockey Club to go with Pascal Bary's colt Study of Man who i highlighted for the race in the Epsom thread.
That race could be an absolute belter by the looks of it.

Mgoraf · 14-05-2018 04:05PM

His fee has dropped each year I see, how are his progeny selling?

Was he always planned to stand in the US? I see he stood here his first season.

diomed · 15-05-2018 08:57AM

Mgoraf wrote: »

Any info on the book of mares Camelot covered this year?

See he's had a classic winner and classic place from his first crop, albeit in Italy.

From 2017 the Premio Lydia Tesio is Italy's only remaining Group 1 race.

antietam · 15-05-2018 10:30PM

Camelot progeny will eventually run over 3m in January at Hexham/Market Rasen etc,etc at best if Coolmore are lucky.IMO Coolmore have nothing[going forward long term] and need to sell paintings to survive it seems.

tryfix · 22-05-2018 01:47AM

.Whatever happened to Hawk Wing, Coolmore's last winner of the Lockinge Stakes before Rhododendron clung on to land Saturday's Group 1 prize?

The answer is to be found in South Korea, in a spacious paddock at the Korea Racing Authority's stud farm on Jeju Island, where Hawk Wing has been resident since BBA Ireland negotiated his sale in 2008, five years after he topped the International Classifications on a mark of 133, a point ahead of the Arc winner Dalakhani.

The son of Woodman's chequered stud career at Coolmore, marked by Lucky General's near-million-euro haul from a sales race and Bank Of Burden's 17 wins in Scandinavia, plus a season's shuttle to Australia, has been replicated in Korea.

All started well, and Hawk Wing averaged 80 mares in his first four seasons. However, the figure was halved in 2013 and has been reduced to single digits thereafter.

For each of the last two seasons he has visited just one mare – a far cry from what might have been expected from a Group 1 winner at the ages of two, three and four, another feat that Rhododendron achieved at Newbury.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-news/hawk-wing-to-be-found-away-from-the-limelight-in-south-korea/332219

The mighty Hawk Wing has fallen very far indeed. Covering just one mare a year in South Korea.

Peintre Celebre · 28-05-2018 01:48PM

A big sunday for Mastercraftsman. He burst on the scene with The Grey Gatsby and Kingston Hill from his first crop off a lowly fee. Didnt reach the same heights since but he got a fee rise to 40k after that and those bred off that fee are 2 year olds this year so there could be some good ones. Alpha Centauri confirmed her early 2 year old promise with a good success yesterday and she looks one to keep winning on good ground and goes to the Coronation next.

His son Neufbosc won a 12 furlong group 3 readily at Longchamp yesterday after a surprising success in a listed race last time. A few of them had big reputations yesterday and it was a good performance visually. Id imagine he would be well fsncied for the gr 1 Grand prix de Paris on Bastille day.

tryfix · 28-05-2018 04:06PM

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

A big sunday for Mastercraftsman. He burst on the scene with The Grey Gatsby and Kingston Hill from his first crop off a lowly fee. Didnt reach the same heights since but he got a fee rise to 40k after that and those bred off that fee are 2 year olds this year so there could be some good ones. Alpha Centauri confirmed her early 2 year old promise with a good success yesterday and she looks one to keep winning on good ground and goes to the Coronation next.

His son Neufbosc won a 12 furlong group 3 readily at Longchamp yesterday after a surprising success in a listed race last time. A few of them had big reputations yesterday and it was a good performance visually. Id imagine he would be well fsncied for the gr 1 Grand prix de Paris on Bastille day.

It's also great to see the Danehill Dancer sire line living on. He was a great sire considering what came his way, also I really hope The Gurkha ( out of a Danehill Dancer mare ) makes it as a stallion to help keep the line going.

Considering how well Galileo and Danehill Dancer clicked it's an awful shame that Coolmore didn't back Mastercraftsman with their better broodmares.

diomed · 29-05-2018 03:19PM

I like to see Mastercraftsman with a good winner.
His dam line is a little bit different, but different in a good way with plenty of good sires and dam. A few hundred horses by Mastercraftsman will be a nice mixer in the thoroughbred population.

tryfix · 05-06-2018 04:35PM

A question for anyone with an inkling of Coolmore's buying policy.

What US sire are they likely to start buying stock by now that we see the last of the Scat Daddy stock?

tryfix · 05-06-2018 05:00PM

kiers47 wrote: »

Declaration of War had his first classic winner with his first crop this weekend in the Poulains. Olmedo i thought he won a with a bit in hand and idled plenty when getting to the leaders.

He looks another ideal type for the Prix Du Jockey Club to go with Pascal Bary's colt Study of Man who i highlighted for the race in the Epsom thread.
That race could be an absolute belter by the looks of it.

You were absolutely right about Study Of Man and Olmedo was very disappointing, although he was eased down.

Incidentally Study Of Man had a DI of 1.35 which is fairly ideal for the 1m 2 1/2f trip. How he fares over further will be very informative re the probability of Deep Impact producing top 12f horse in Europe. Although Study Of Man's dam is by Speed influence Storm Cat she is also out of champion miler and ultimate blue-hen Miesque.

Wonder where he'll end up at stud? He'd be a perfect outcross for Gallileo mares with Deep Impact and Stormcat already clicking with Galileo mares, plus Coolmore are rightly fond of the Miesque line.

Would love to see him turn up at the Curragh, although Leopardstown would be a more likely target.

tryfix · 05-06-2018 05:06PM

Found has delivered her first foal, a colt by Warfront. Not so sure about the mating myself but Found's progeny would probably have needed some speed injected into them.

kiers47 · 05-06-2018 05:36PM

tryfix wrote: »

You were absolutely right about Study Of Man and Olmedo was very disappointing, although he was eased down.

Incidentally Study Of Man had a DI of 1.35 which is fairly ideal for the 1m 2 1/2f trip. How he fares over further will be very informative re the probability of Deep Impact producing top 12f horse in Europe. Although Study Of Man's dam is by Speed influence Storm Cat she is also out of champion miler and ultimate blue-hen Miesque.

Wonder where he'll end up at stud? He'd be a perfect outcross for Gallileo mares with Deep Impact and Stormcat already clicking with Galileo mares, plus Coolmore are rightly fond of the Miesque line.

Would love to see him turn up at the Curragh, although Leopardstown would be a more likely target.

Ya it was a nice performance he won a little snugly too I thought.
I was looking at 5/1 during the week on him for the race and woke up on Sunday and all I could get on was @7/2 so left him run at that price. Thought it was a tricky race so 7/2 was just a tad skinny for me.

Still though one to keep on side. Leopards town and then Longchamp would be great as I'll be at both.

Fanny Wank · 05-06-2018 07:29PM

tryfix wrote: »

A question for anyone with an inkling of Coolmore's buying policy.

What US sire are they likely to start buying stock by now that we see the last of the Scat Daddy stock?

Tbh I wouldn't know near enough to answer but was it not strange that they didn't look more to Giants Causeway?

While I don't follow US racing (so they might have some with US trainers) I haven't seen many, if any, Coolmore horses by Tapit

Inion An Ri · 05-06-2018 07:57PM

I've read somewhere that Coolmore have never been fans of Tapit stock because of particular concerns about his Lasix use, given it's a weakness that can be passed on genetically.
Coolmore haven't bought any War Fronts for two or three years now, they are breeding their own, they own about 35% of him and have about 40 nominations per year.
Scat Daddy was of course one of their own, as are Uncle Mo and American Pharoah (also Declaration of War and Air Force Blue), and they are supporting them very strongly, including with lots of European mares.
It hasn't been confirmed yet, but it looks like they have bought the breeding rights to Justify.
So it looks like that going forward, they will do what they do in Europe, and primarily buy the best of the progeny of their own stallions.

Inion An Ri · 05-06-2018 08:06PM

If Study of Man goes on from here and proves himself a star (it was a bit of a blanket finish on Sunday), I wouldn't be surprised to see him stand at Coolmore. They have been associated with Flaxman Stables Ireland for some time, but that's been taken to a whole new level this year, with a large number of 2yos held in joint ownership.
It looks like they will stand at least two new sons of Scat Daddy next year, so wouldn't be all that surprising to see them stand two Deep Impacts.

Stallions

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