8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

Zubeneschamali · 15-05-2018 11:25AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Your effectively saying the fetus isnt fully human enough. Which is grand - not fully human.

The Supreme court agrees - the unborn is not a child and has none of the rights children have in the Constitution, just the right to life in 40.3.3

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:26AM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

However, by the most reasonable and accurate methods available to us, there's no evidence that abortion has a negative impact on mental health.

And I was pointing out that these reasonable and accurate measures haven't necessarily a way to calibrate themselves.

I've got a lot of time for science. But I don't think it has omnipotent reach. If there can be seen to be a fundamental problem at root of the measurment method, then you have to thread carefully.

There are a lot of assumptions in your post. An awful lot of women would have to have a) seen abortion as an issue of conscience b) had one anyway c) lied, to themselves, for years for any of this to have any significant effect.

The question of conscience lies at the root of it. Everyone has one for a start. And if there are some things which are fundamentally counter conscience (such as killing another) then all will be subject to it's influence.

The question is in the "if". If > then's. No matter how big the cohort.

Interestingly, Richard Dawkins, in his book, The God Delusion cites research which concluded that morality, the world over, is fundamentally the same. Education / religion / social influence / wealth .. it didn't matter. Even tribes who'd had no contact with the outer world held to this same basic morality (in which killing another is going to find it's place).

Is this a root matter of conscience for everyone and everyone is wired to recoil from killing another? If so, then folk will suppress very deeply

erica74 · 15-05-2018 11:28AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

pro abortion posters you mean.
and no i don't play with toys or have a pram, but i guess the yes side wouldn't want either of those as they wouldn't need them.

Nope, prochoice. Every woman should have the choice to continue with her pregnancy or have an abortion or whatever choice she deems right for herself and every woman should have full input into her maternity care.
3 threads in and you still don't understand what the referendum is about

I'm putting you on ignore now, I've had enough of your vile posts.

never_mind · 15-05-2018 11:29AM

splinter65 wrote: »

But if abscence of sentience and consciousness are the only things that render a 12 week fetus a non person then why can’t that be applied to a person in an induced coma?

Whatever about sentience... if a fetus is the result of rape/incest, or has a major FFA, it can impede and impact on the health of the woman. When a person is in an induced coma they are in the process of receiving medical treatment... the 8th doesn't allow for medical treatment.

Whatever happens on the 25th it won't stop women from traveling to the UK and availing of abortions. It's already here, even if you don't want to recognise it.

Sofiztikated · 15-05-2018 11:29AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

pro abortion posters you mean.
and no i don't play with toys or have a pram, but i guess the yes side wouldn't want either of those as they wouldn't need them.

Do you honestly think we're baby killing, heartless things?

That last comment is insensitive in the extreme.

Stick your self serving, holier than thou, snide comments up your conservative arsehole
You are no better than anyone else.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:29AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Supreme court agrees - the unborn is not a child and has none of the rights children have in the Constitution, just the right to life in 40.3.3

What other rights would you suggest giving a child in the womb?

ohnonotgmail · 15-05-2018 11:30AM

splinter65 wrote: »

But if abscence of sentience and consciousness are the only things that render a 12 week fetus a non person then why can’t that be applied to a person in an induced coma?

Because as a society we have decided they are very different entities.

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never_mind · 15-05-2018 11:30AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

pro abortion posters you mean.
and no i don't play with toys or have a pram, but i guess the yes side wouldn't want either of those as they wouldn't need them.

What a sick, twisted comment.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-05-2018 11:31AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

And I was pointing out that these reasonable and accurate measures haven't necessarily a way to calibrate themselves.

I've got a lot of time for science. But I don't think it has omnipotent reach. If there can be seen to be a fundamental problem at root of the measurment method, then you have to thread carefully.

And as I have repeatedly pointed out, these measures are being used as a counter to a popular myth. They're far from measures of objective truth, but they're far closer to it than "abortion causes suicide" or "I just have a feeling they're lying".

The question of conscience lies at the root of it. Everyone has one for a start. And if there are some things which are fundamentally counter conscience (such as killing another) then all will be subject to it's influence.

I mean by that logic, the world is probably full of people who secretly feel terrible about eating meat.

YOU see abortion as fundamentally counter to conscience. I don't. Many other people don't.

The question is in the "if". If > then's. No matter how big the cohort.

Not sure what you mean here? There are more people who possibly might feel one way than people who definitely feel another?

SusieBlue · 15-05-2018 11:31AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

pro abortion posters you mean.
and no i don't play with toys or have a pram, but i guess the yes side wouldn't want either of those as they wouldn't need them.

Every time I think you can't stoop any lower, you come back with a belter of a comment like that one.
Keep going, you are only helping the Yes side.

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AnneFrank · 15-05-2018 11:33AM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Do you honestly think we're baby killing, heartless things?

That last comment is insensitive in the extreme.

Stick your self serving, holier than thou, snide comments up your conservative arsehole
You are no better than anyone else.

What classy language, are you Brid Smyth ?

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AnneFrank · 15-05-2018 11:34AM

never_mind wrote: »

What a sick, twisted comment.

the truth is uncomfortable isn't it.
It's not pro choice, it's pro abortion.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-05-2018 11:34AM

splinter65 wrote: »

But if abscence of sentience and consciousness are the only things that render a 12 week fetus a non person then why can’t that be applied to a person in an induced coma?

Absence of capacity for it.

It's like saying you're making whatever decision about a bird because it's lost the ability to fly and someone insisting you'd better do the exact same with all the fish because they can't fly either.

never_mind · 15-05-2018 11:34AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

What classy language, are you Brid Smyth ?

Wow - you stay classy, AnneFrank!

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Sofiztikated · 15-05-2018 11:35AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

What classy language, are you Brid Smyth ?

Have you anything to contribute to the thread, or just piss and moan, and annoy people?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 15-05-2018 11:36AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

the truth is uncomfortable isn't it.
It's not pro choice, it's pro abortion.

Most people who have an abortion are already mothers, is the actual truth. So the 'no need for prams or toys' comment was just another bit of vindictiveness with zero basis in fact.

I'd be absolutely delighted if nobody, ever, had an abortion, could you explain to me how I'm pro-abortion?

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retro:electro · 15-05-2018 11:38AM

AnneFrank wrote: »

pro abortion posters you mean.
and no i don't play with toys or have a pram, but i guess the yes side wouldn't want either of those as they wouldn't need them.

There are no pro abortion posters because nobody is advocating for abortion. Best case scenario, no abortions happen. Worst case scenario, someone avails of the choice that has been given to her by the people of Ireland and decides for whatever reason that she needs to end the pregnancy.

In an idea world no abortions would happen. Maria Steen seems to think that every woman who finds out she’s pregnant greets it as welcome news and falls in love from the outset. This is not real life and she is deluded.

Edited to add: I don’t even know why I’m bothering to give you the respect of a decent answer. We all know you don’t deserve it and don’t care.

Shadowstrife · 15-05-2018 11:38AM

More Key-board warrior posturing. Guys, get out and canvass. It is more productive than feeding the trolls

splinter65 · 15-05-2018 11:39AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Because as a society we have decided they are very different entities.

You’ve appointed yourself spokesperson for our society? I see.
So tell me how society has decided one human being that is not sentient and not conscious but WILL BE sentient and conscious in a matter of weeks or months is deserving of protection and the other is not.

blanch152 · 15-05-2018 11:40AM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The Supreme Court has ruled (in March) that the unborn are not children now, even with the 8th in place.

They never were children.

Nothing has changed as a result of the Supreme Court.

Prior to the 8th, the only right that the unborn had was the right to life, the 8th gave that right equal status to the right to life of the mother, and repealing the 8th only restores the status quo ante.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:41AM

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Unfortunately for your position, this is the crux of the issue. Is it? Isn't it.

antiskeptic · 15-05-2018 11:42AM

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Now if only you had a scientific study to demonstrate that.

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splinter65 · 15-05-2018 11:44AM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

Absence of capacity for it.

It's like saying you're making whatever decision about a bird because it's lost the ability to fly and someone insisting you'd better do the exact same with all the fish because they can't fly either.

Here’s what an unborn human being and a person in an induced coma have in common.
Neither are sentient or conscious but both have the capacity to be both sentient and conscious in a matter of weeks or months, if looked after carefully.
Why is one not deserving of protection?

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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