Half of all TD's are millionaires

Franz Von Peppercorn · 14-05-2018 01:01PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

At the bottom, you have those who can only talk about people.
Above than that are the people who can talk about events and their impact.
And then proper conversation lies in ideas.

We were talking about the idea that a pension is important because a politician gets removed from the workforce for so long. Without it, only the rich can be a politician.

The other guy comes back and attempts to refute an idea that has gone back centuries by throwing out a few random names, like it's remotely relevant in the big picture.

He didn’t just do that. He asked whether they getting teacher pensions which is a general idea.

Talking about people in that phrase means gossip not politicians.

Muahahaha · 14-05-2018 01:14PM

The big story here is really one of corruption. For example how did Sean Haughey come to amass 5 million with another 2 million likely on the way from his mothers will? And how did Michael Lowry amass 64m, wasnt he caught on the telephone a while back trying to hide money from Revenue?

14-05-2018 01:19PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Many of them would be successful high achievers in their professional lives before politics. Some of the usual moaners on the journal etc would prefer if TDs took a vow of poverty before entering their Dail seat. There’s far easier ways of making a 100k salary in Ireland.

its not that thats the problem

its that, for instance, how much of an influence the makeup of the majority of tds and their compadres influences decisions such as, ooh, i dunno:

- a late night unilateral bailout of the banks (stocks, shares, property owners)
- a very relaxed attitude towards solving a property crisis (most tds are landlords, many of them significantly so)
- etc etc etc

eeguy · 14-05-2018 01:30PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

its not that thats the problem

its that, for instance, how much of an influence the makeup of the majority of tds and their compadres influences decisions such as, ooh, i dunno:

- a late night unilateral bailout of the banks (stocks, shares, property owners)
- a very relaxed attitude towards solving a property crisis (most tds are landlords, many of them significantly so)
- etc etc etc

TDs are voted in. FF were rightly destroyed in the election after the bank deals and the crash.

I would argue about your "relaxed attitude" statement also. There are many factors that cause the housing crisis. Government inaction is only one factor.

CrankyHaus · 14-05-2018 01:37PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

And how did Michael Lowry amass 64m, wasnt he caught on the telephone a while back trying to hide money from Revenue?

And whatever happened to the criminal investigation of Lowry initiated on foot of the final report of the Moriarty Tribunal in 2011?

There seem to have been no developments in the 7 years since, while Michael has spent that time propping up FG in government, funny how that works.

But no, the Dail has so many millionaires because they all work really hard, or something.

14-05-2018 01:42PM

Posters need to be rigorous with evidence it doesn't advance the argument when its based on bias and an often vague ill-defined resentment against politicians and politics.

These threads always attract the...'I want to believe the majority of TD's are publicans and teachers or rich'... despite that not being correct ( that does not mean there are not former teacher or publicans who are TD's) another version of this is to pick two or three former TD's who are wealthy and extrapolate from that to all TD's.

14-05-2018 02:04PM

You thought only old people get pensions? Ha. John Bruton is in receipt of a full ministerial pension from this state since he was...34 years of age. That pension has been paid to him since March 1982, 36 years ago. In 2012, after the worst of the cuts, he was getting €138,000 per annum from his government pension - and this was his response to a request to take less from that pension (he also gets a slew of other pensions, such as his EU one, but sin scéal eile):

John Bruton -- I won't hand back my pension unless forced by law

The average citizen couldn't invent this gravy train, this institutionalised sycophancy, although politicians have managed to. All legal in this state. If anybody wants to start with tackling parasites of the Irish taxpayers, John Bruton's pension would be a very, very, very good place to begin.

Zebra3 · 14-05-2018 02:05PM

CrankyHaus wrote: »

And whatever happened to the criminal investigation of Lowry initiated on foot of the final report of the Moriarty Tribunal in 2011?

There seem to have been no developments in the 7 years since, while Michael has spent that time propping up FG in government, funny how that works.

But no, the Dail has so many millionaires because they all work really hard, or something.

A lot of our TDs are landlords.

Which of course isn’t earning money through hard work but in a lot of cases about amassing wealth through exploitation.

14-05-2018 02:17PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

A lot of our TDs are landlords.

Which of course isn’t earning money through hard work but in a lot of cases about amassing wealth through exploitation.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/find-out-if-your-local-td-is-a-landlord-or-owns-multiple-properties-1.3393692

According to this, about a quarter are landlords is there any evidence that landlords who are TD are exploiting their tenants surely that would get into the media.

Or is merely owning property and renting it exploration.

Remind me of someone with extream left views who keep going on about Landlordism, when the contradiction of their position was pointed out to them they just keep repeating Landlordism like it was a mantra.

The pension issue does need to be sorted that does not mean abolished.

I wouldn't be a politician even if it paid a million a year.

eeguy · 14-05-2018 02:36PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

A lot of our TDs are landlords.

Which of course isn’t earning money through hard work but in a lot of cases about amassing wealth through exploitation.

Would you give over. My parents rent a house to my brother. Are they exploiting him?

You should be claiming disability for that chip on your shoulder.

Richard Hillman · 14-05-2018 03:12PM

I would certainly hope that people earning 70-100k a year over a long period of time would have 7 figures worth of assets. I would be more worried if people in the Oireachtas for 20-30+ years didn't. Some people would probably rather they blew they 5-8k a month and just lived month to month without making business investments

eeguy · 14-05-2018 03:18PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I would certainly hope that people earning 70-100k a year over a long period of time would have 7 figures worth of assets. I would be more worried if people in the Oireachtas for 20-30+ years didn't. Some people would probably rather they blew they 5-8k a month and just lived month to month without making business investments

Some people would rather they were on 25k a year, and even then others would be giving out.

It's a common attitude here. Everyone who earns more than me is overpaid and has their nose in the trough, everyone who earns less than me is workshy and uneducated.

Zebra3 · 14-05-2018 04:27PM

eeguy wrote: »

Would you give over. My parents rent a house to my brother. Are they exploiting him?

You should be claiming disability for that chip on your shoulder.

Was it too difficult for you to understand the bit where I wrote "in a lot of cases"?

Maybe get your own chip looked at before making false accusations against others. :rolleyes:

Zebra3 · 14-05-2018 04:29PM

mariaalice wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/find-out-if-your-local-td-is-a-landlord-or-owns-multiple-properties-1.3393692

According to this, about a quarter are landlords is there any evidence that landlords who are TD are exploiting their tenants surely that would get into the media.

Or is merely owning property and renting it exploration.

Remind me of someone with extream left views who keep going on about Landlordism, when the contradiction of their position was pointed out to them they just keep repeating Landlordism like it was a mantra.

The pension issue does need to be sorted that does not mean abolished.

I wouldn't be a politician even if it paid a million a year.

I never said TDs were exploiting people, but I'd be very surprised if some aren't. Though that will all depend on each lerson's definition of exploitation.

But of course fair play to you for skipping my point about profiting from renting as not being hard work. That point not suit your agenda?

Deise Vu · 14-05-2018 04:31PM

eeguy wrote: »

Some people would rather they were on 25k a year, and even then others would be giving out.

It's a common attitude here. Everyone who earns more than me is overpaid and has their nose in the trough, everyone who earns less than me is workshy and uneducated.

We have literally hundreds of thousands of different pension schemes in this country, some with only one or two members. Then we have PS employees, some with final salary defined benefit pensions, and recent employees on 'whole of life' DB pensions. Then there are PS entitled to full pensions after 30 years and others after 40. Then, at the top of the tree, we have the Politicians who can get a decent pension after 8 years 'service'.

Do you think this is fair, that the people who make the rules, quelle surprise, have the most lucrative pension with the lowest qualifying bar? Does it make sense to have hundreds of thousands of schemes? Why not do something mad, like have everyone pay the same percentage of their salaries into a fund and whatever that fund buys is your pension. Then there can be no finger pointing or Public Servant representatives having to pretend that their pensions are worthless.

The problem is it would be too sensible and the people who make the rules would have the most to lose.

Still no answer to my pension question about the 'leave of absence' teachers. I recall Enda saying he was giving his up. That was more worrying than reassuring because he left teaching when he was 24. So what was he giving up exactly? Answers on a €20 note in a brown envelope please.

sbsquarepants · 14-05-2018 04:41PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

A lot of our TDs are landlords.

Which of course isn’t earning money through hard work but in a lot of cases about amassing wealth through exploitation.

Or another way of looking at would be - by footing the initial cost of purchase and providing someone with a place to live. Why exactly should a politician subsidise some randomers housing costs?

TerrorFirmer · 14-05-2018 05:57PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

But of course fair play to you for skipping my point about profiting from renting as not being hard work. That point not suit your agenda?

Because it was utterly moronic in fairness.

How do you think they got the properties in the first place? Won them at a table quiz?

Many/most wealthy TD's either were, or still are, very successful business/career people prior to entering politics.

Profiting from renting is exactly the culmination of hard work for many people. Work hard, earn, invest and hope for return.

TD's don't get paid a huge amount considering it's a 24/7 slog. It's one of the toughest jobs going realistically in terms of time invested - and consider that you're not guaranteed more than a single term - and public office is one of the worst soul-consuming fields to get involved in.

Also, people do realise that the rules have changed and you don't get a pension until retirement age? I feel like people don't understand that is now a thing.

eeguy · 14-05-2018 07:45PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Was it too difficult for you to understand the bit where I wrote "in a lot of cases"?

Maybe get your own chip looked at before making false accusations against others. :rolleyes:

It doesn't matter if it's most or all, your point is ridiculous.
Being a landlord is a business. A business must make a profit. There's not much profit in being a landlord these days even with high rents. Someone did a fantastic breakdown in the accommodation forum and the number sdont add up, which is why so many people are getting out of it.

14-05-2018 09:48PM

Being a millionaire isn't that big a deal nowadays. According to the Knight Frank world wealth report for 2017 there were 83,100 dollar millionaires in Ireland in 2016 (so probably over 80,000 euro millionaires in 2018?)

8-figures is the new 7-figures; only 2760 people worth over $10 million in 2016; so maybe 3000 worth over 10 million euro in 2018? And even those worth 10 million would need to watch their money carefully to maintain a comfortable living in the long run.

Also - the number of farmers worth say 2,3,4 million must be quite high but it's a case of asset rich, cash (relatively) poor.

lightspeed · 14-05-2018 11:22PM

dulpit wrote: »

The pension issue is a non-issue though. Think about it - if you decided to run for Dáil, were elected for 2 terms and then walked away or lost seat. You've theoretically lost 10 years of your main career, which could make it very hard to (a) get back into the career you had and (b) get back to decent earnings.

We have 2 choices:
Only have rich people run for Dáil

Renumerate our politicians for the work they do, including pensions/etc.

or just have it pay a normal salary say 50k and have them receive a pension similar to most in private sector.

Im sure the argument then would be that there would be more corruption if they were not paid the high salary and pensions they are paid now. Firstly, that's never made a difference and same argument is still made to defend high bonuses for investment bankers.

When corruption takes place instead of the usual high priced tribunals how about we just give a minimum of 15 years in prison?

In this country we only apply the carrot approach against crime and corruption whereas id want to see many beaten with the stick.

14-05-2018 11:39PM

lightspeed wrote: »

or just have it pay a normal salary say 50k and have them receive a pension similar to most in private sector.

Im sure the argument then would be that there would be more corruption if they were not paid the high salary and pensions they are paid now. Firstly, that's never made a difference and same argument is still made to defend high bonuses for investment bankers.

When corruption takes place instead of the usual high priced tribunals how about we just give a minimum of 15 years in prison?

In this country we only apply the carrot approach against crime and corruption whereas id want to see many beaten with the stick.

It's not a normal job so why should it be badly paid? 50k is a pittance for a job like being a TD, the equivalent private sector job would be on well over 100k. Nobody would do the job for 50k as it would be terribely under paid, it could be argued that they are underpaid as it is as it's a 24/7 job with massive responsibility and constant scrunity.

StupidLikeAFox · 15-05-2018 02:27AM

Grayson wrote: »

I'd actually be interested in politics except the Indo would have an aneurism when they discovered how many drugs I did in my 20's. And it's just one stupid story after another. And some are very stupid

I really enjoyed myself in my 20's.

Vote Grayson

"Forget the recession, its time for a session"

"I'll put the E into the HSE"

"Smoke some blunts and forget those.....other guys"

JohnMc1 · 15-05-2018 12:46PM

JohnnyFlash wrote: »

Is that little oddball, Barrett, the leader of the National Party? I’m no leftie but that lad is a jumped-up little fascist. Blaming everything on immigrants, women, and ‘liberals’. Liberals being anyone who doesn’t share his warped and angry view of the world.

Well its a damning indictment of the established parties that he's the sensible one then.

As I my Democrat friends when they cry about Trump. Don't blame Trump for winning. Blame the Democrats for running **** candidates and abandoning their base [the working class] to embrace policies that only a tiny portion of the population care about.

whisky_galore · 15-05-2018 12:55PM

Lola Nervous Tightwad wrote: »

Drove through kilgarvan yesterday. Looked like it should have been renamed Rae-ville.

I doubt that their electorate would begrudge them a few bob for being 'looked after'.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-05-2018 01:19PM

it's not that difficult to be a "millionaire" nowadays, especially with property prices the way they are.

i say fair play to 'em. only the loonie lefty types will have a problem with it. then again that sort just want to reduce everybody to their miserable level.

Zebra3 · 15-05-2018 01:26PM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Or another way of looking at would be - by footing the initial cost of purchase and providing someone with a place to live. Why exactly should a politician subsidise some randomers housing costs?

Politicians are paying for houses in cash?

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Because it was utterly moronic in fairness.

How do you think they got the properties in the first place? Won them at a table quiz?

Many/most wealthy TD's either were, or still are, very successful business/career people prior to entering politics.

Profiting from renting is exactly the culmination of hard work for many people. Work hard, earn, invest and hope for return.

TD's don't get paid a huge amount considering it's a 24/7 slog. It's one of the toughest jobs going realistically in terms of time invested - and consider that you're not guaranteed more than a single term - and public office is one of the worst soul-consuming fields to get involved in.

Also, people do realise that the rules have changed and you don't get a pension until retirement age? I feel like people don't understand that is now a thing.

Profiting from renting is profiting from investment. It is not the same as becoming wealthy through hard work.

Wheres Me Jumper? · 15-05-2018 01:30PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Politicians are paying for houses in cash?

Profiting from renting is profiting from investment. It is not the same as becoming wealthy through hard work.

i own a number of properties which i rent out, and trust me it's not easy. in the words of one great politician,
"you should try it sometime"

15-05-2018 01:33PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Profiting from renting is profiting from investment. It is not the same as becoming wealthy through hard work.

Renting out propery is hard work, very hard work in fact. People really are clueless or blinded by their massive bias.

Deise Vu · 15-05-2018 02:30PM

Deise Vu wrote: »

We have literally hundreds of thousands of different pension schemes in this country, some with only one or two members. Then we have PS employees, some with final salary defined benefit pensions, and recent employees on 'whole of life' DB pensions. Then there are PS entitled to full pensions after 30 years and others after 40. Then, at the top of the tree, we have the Politicians who can get a decent pension after 8 years 'service'.

Do you think this is fair, that the people who make the rules, quelle surprise, have the most lucrative pension with the lowest qualifying bar? Does it make sense to have hundreds of thousands of schemes? Why not do something mad, like have everyone pay the same percentage of their salaries into a fund and whatever that fund buys is your pension. Then there can be no finger pointing or Public Servant representatives having to pretend that their pensions are worthless.

The problem is it would be too sensible and the people who make the rules would have the most to lose.

Still no answer to my pension question about the 'leave of absence' teachers. I recall Enda saying he was giving his up. That was more worrying than reassuring because he left teaching when he was 24. So what was he giving up exactly? Answers on a €20 note in a brown envelope please.

OK, even though nobody seems to have an answer to this I am going to ask another question. When Enda, Michéal and the dozens of other teachers remain on leave of absence to pursue their Dáil careers, a sub teacher has to be hired to cover the absence and then they are fired for the Summer. When this happens, are the lads and lassies in the Dáil still on leave of absence or are they now on Summer Holidays from their teaching post. ie do they get a teacher's salary for the Summer?

And, just to clarify, my original question is that, while on leave of absence, are their teacher retirement benefits accruing at the normal rate. It has always struck me as extremely suspicious that the likes of Enda and Micheál remain on the Dept of education payroll despite the fact that it is obvious they will never ever return to teaching.

eeguy · 15-05-2018 03:51PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Profiting from renting is profiting from investment. It is not the same as becoming wealthy through hard work.

And what's the difference?

Is becoming wealthy through investment worse than by hard work?
Should we stop interest payments on everything?
Ban trading stocks and shares?

Half of all TD's are millionaires

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