8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

seamus · 09-05-2018 02:12PM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

Does anyone know where LoveBoth are physically based? Can't see it anywhere on their website, "Contact Us" just leads to e-mail.

I mean I'm sure they don't operate out of the same offices, have the same founders, same board etc as YD or some other pro-life organisation. There are totally loads of pro-life outfits that started completely independently of each other because there's such an authentic grassroots pro-life movement in Ireland and it's not at all the same twenty odd zealots setting up loads of organisations to create that impression, no sirree, but still it's a bit odd.

https://benefacts.ie/org/c9ba156f-b35a-4015-8b66-02fefa05a04d

swampgas · 09-05-2018 02:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As explained previously, I have to keep this brief.

I consider the unborn - from the instant of conception - to be fully deserving of the right to life.

I will not apologise for that belief, nor try to change your mind on the fact that you clearly disagree.

I reserve the right to make my own decision, just as you have the right to make yours.

I assume that this belief of yours is religiously based, because there isn't really any other sensible reason for believing that a zygote should have the same rights as a living adult.

You don't have to explain or justify that belief, but you might try explaining why your rather extreme faith-based position on abortion should be imposed on the whole country by the constitution. Do you not agree with the concept of freedom of religion?

....... · 09-05-2018 02:14PM

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pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 09-05-2018 02:16PM

Cheers guys! Friend of mine is researching for an article, I'll give yous a by line

spookwoman · 09-05-2018 02:17PM

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Their website says 60 Clifton house lower fitzwilliam st Dublin 2.

That's a serviced office that also offers virtual addresses.

More info here
https://www.lobbying.ie/organisation/1273/pro-life-campaign

solocheck fr VIE
https://www.solocheck.ie/Irish-Company/V-I-E-Company-Limited-By-Guarantee-204461
Principal Activity:[91.32] Activities of Political Organizations
May Trade As:Pro Life Campaign
Loveboth
Life Equality
Protectboth

some of the directors have links to another lot registered as a charity https://benefacts.ie/org/2c215210-123e-4718-8c16-bf6a0663adea/beatha-slainte-cuideachta-faoi-theorainn-r%C3%A1tha%C3%ADochta

....... · 09-05-2018 02:17PM

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ASISEEIT · 09-05-2018 02:19PM

seamus wrote: »

I went to check and see if they'd ever made a comment on it. David Quinn is famous for wittering on about the hippocratic oath and talking about the slippery slopes that can arise.

So they've said nothing on organ donation, but I did find an interesting article. It was claiming that someone in the NHS had suggested encouraging bringing babies with FFAs to term, so that their organs may be donated after death.

And the tone was critical. The Iona institute was criticising a suggestion that mothers be encouraged to bring FFAs to full term.

Think about how many knots that requires in order to justify it to yourself.

Aborting children with FFAs = wrong.
Bringing them to full term, if their organs could be used = wrong.

So not only would they prefer that babies be incubated so they may die shortly after birth, but it be wrong if other babies could be saved through their organs.

Pro-life my hole.

The 29 thanks says it all . Ie yes side on the run if they have to applaude this. You don't take life. There is no mainstream no voter or medic who would back this. Its nonsense. Nobody has the right to take a life to save a life or lives . This is a fringe argument

Martina1991 · 09-05-2018 02:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

As explained previously, I have to keep this brief.

I consider the unborn - from the instant of conception - to be fully deserving of the right to life.

I will not apologise for that belief, nor try to change your mind on the fact that you clearly disagree.

I reserve the right to make my own decision, just as you have the right to make yours.

Then by your own statement, you must be against the morning after pill, the 13th amendment, IVF clinics, abortions in the cases of rape etc?
Anything else is hypocrisy.

....... · 09-05-2018 02:21PM

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail · 09-05-2018 02:21PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

The 29 thanks says it all . Ie yes side on the run if they have to applaude this. You don't take life. There is no mainstream no voter or medic who would back this. Its nonsense. Nobody has the right to take a life to save a life or lives . This is a fringe argument

Presumably you didnt spot the hypocrisy in Ionas position?

yourdeadwright · 09-05-2018 02:21PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

It doesn't change the fact if your husband did rape you he is a rapist and a pig ,
Rape is the act , if you commit the act your a rapist , weather its legal or not has noting to do with the act,

yourdeadwright wrote: »

They most certainly did and they where terrible things but it doesn't change the fact that if you commit the act Rape, you are a Rapist regardless if it was legal or not ,
Its pretty straight forward stuff,

You are like a CD on repeat.

Ive no interest in trying to explain it further to you.

This tactic of the No crowd to simply endlessly repeat rubbish despite being given detailed explanations just makes you look incredibly stupid.[/quote]
No need to explain anything,
I'm not the NO crowd at all just trying to explain to people that sometimes its people that have to take responsibility ,
Just cause its good aul grand da doesn't mean its not rape ,

Sofiztikated · 09-05-2018 02:22PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

The 29 thanks says it all . Ie yes side on the run if they have to applaude this. You don't take life. There is no mainstream no voter or medic who would back this. Its nonsense. Nobody has the right to take a life to save a life or lives . This is a fringe argument

Well done on COMPLETELY missing what was said.

nozzferrahhtoo · 09-05-2018 02:22PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Nobody has the right to take a life to save a life or lives

Except we do it all the time. We take the lives of live stock in order to feed humans for example. So we very much have the right to take life to suit ourselves.

The abortion debate therefore should center on the anti choice contingent explaining to us when and why we should NOT be allowed take life in this world. And then show how the criteria thus defined and substantiated can be applied to a 12/16 week old fetus.

Alas the best they have is the move of shouting "Human" at the question and then running away thinking they answered the question when in fact they only begged it.

patrickSTARR · 09-05-2018 02:24PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Legally, you are not a person until you are born. Seriously, man, they give you a certificate and everything!

QUOTE]

But that's the place where most disagree. Some think that life begins at birth, some belief it begins when the baby is conceived.

Some believe a termination when the child and mother are healthy, to be murder.

kylith · 09-05-2018 02:24PM

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Have you just arrived on this planet ????

Here's something for you to think on - there were MILLIONS of men and women who would decide whether to have sexual congress on a given night.

Some women may have just gone with the flow. Some men may have not even been bothered.

Many couples were equally up for it.

I'd say a small minority of men were so bullish as to think "I'm doing it anyway" even over an objection.

You really need to open a book, or talk to someone with an IQ in three figures as I believe you have the capacity to learn and grow - but are currently not doing so.

It was taught that men had a right to have sex and women had a duty to let them, within marriage. They would not have thought in terms or rape or duress, it was the way it was.

My issue would be with the priest not telling the husband to lay off for a bit, or discussing the rhythm method.

nozzferrahhtoo · 09-05-2018 02:25PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Some believe a termination when the child and mother are healthy, to be murder.

As I keep saying though, to the point it is starting to become my slogan.... "THAT they believe that has never been in question. WHY they believe it remains entirely opaque"

wexie · 09-05-2018 02:25PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

The 29 thanks says it all . Ie yes side on the run if they have to applaude this. You don't take life. There is no mainstream no voter or medic who would back this. Its nonsense. Nobody has the right to take a life to save a life or lives . This is a fringe argument

31 now, thanks for pointing that out to me

ELM327 · 09-05-2018 02:26PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

As I keep saying though, to the point it is starting to become my slogan.... "THAT they believe that has never been in question. WHY they believe it remains entirely opaque"

Or indeed, why they see fit to enforce their beliefs on others that do not share them.

RobertKK · 09-05-2018 02:26PM

Esmeralda Inexpensive Balloonist wrote: »

Does anyone know where LoveBoth are physically based? Can't see it anywhere on their website, "Contact Us" just leads to e-mail.

I mean I'm sure they don't operate out of the same offices, have the same founders, same board etc as YD or some other pro-life organisation. There are totally loads of pro-life outfits that started completely independently of each other because there's such an authentic grassroots pro-life movement in Ireland and it's not at all the same twenty odd zealots setting up loads of organisations to create that impression, no sirree, but still it's a bit odd.

There is a strong pro-life movement in Ireland, just look at the crowd that turned out for the march in Dublin.

Tens of thousands of people marched through Dublin yesterday in the one of the country's biggest ever anti-abortion demonstrations.
Participants in the Rally for Life marched from Parnell Square to Merrion Square, where they were addressed by speakers calling for the retention of the Eighth Amendment in the Constitution, which protects life in the womb.
Placard-waving marchers were 10 to 12 abreast at the front of the march as they arrived at Merrion Square while marchers near the rear of the crowd were still leaving O'Connell Street.The demonstration stretched for well over a kilometre through the city.

Organisers stated 100,000 people joined the rally.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/huge-crowds-join-prolife-march-in-city-36691934.html

SusieBlue · 09-05-2018 02:26PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

The 29 thanks says it all . Ie yes side on the run if they have to applaude this. You don't take life. There is no mainstream no voter or medic who would back this. Its nonsense. Nobody has the right to take a life to save a life or lives . This is a fringe argument

Can you please explain why a pre >12 week old zygote should have an equal right to life, as me, a living citizen?
In particular, why should its equal right to life be upheld at the expense of my health or life being at risk?

Why should I have to be dying to receive the healthcare I need?

kylith · 09-05-2018 02:26PM

"patrickSTARR wrote: »

But that's the place where most disagree. Some think that life begins at birth, some belief it begins when the baby is conceived.

Some believe a termination when the child and mother are healthy, to be murder.

You can believe what you like, but the law of the land says that you have to be born to be a person.

Sofiztikated · 09-05-2018 02:27PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

ELM327 wrote: »

Legally, you are not a person until you are born. Seriously, man, they give you a certificate and everything!

QUOTE]

But that's the place where most disagree. Some think that life begins at birth, some belief it begins when the baby is conceived.

Some believe a termination when the child and mother are healthy, to be murder.

How do you define healthy?

SusieBlue · 09-05-2018 02:28PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But that's the place where most disagree. Some think that life begins at birth, some belief it begins when the baby is conceived.

Some believe a termination when the child and mother are healthy, to be murder.

You can believe whatever you want, but not at the expense of me receiving substandard healthcare.
Your right to believe that stops where it interferes with my rights. It shouldn't even be up for discussion.

wexie · 09-05-2018 02:28PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

patrickSTARR wrote: »

How do you define healthy?

not actively knocking on death's door seems to be the definition a lot of people around here go with

Zubeneschamali · 09-05-2018 02:28PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

As I keep saying though, to the point it is starting to become my slogan.... "THAT they believe that has never been in question. WHY they believe it remains entirely opaque"

Also, since the 8th and the law today do not agree that abortion is murder, who cares that they claim to believe this? They are wrong.

inter arma · 09-05-2018 02:29PM

When was the latest official poll? How are things looking?

bloodless_coup · 09-05-2018 02:29PM

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Total. Cop. Out.

But sure let me dumb it down for you anyway:

1) What is wrong with eligible voters returning to vote?

2) How do you know the majority of them yes voters?

3) What is wrong with them being yes voters particularly?

1) Fair weather people who will bitch and moan about Ireland all day long coming back to push thier agenda formed by the delusion that they are more "progressive" and superior for having left Ireland.

2) All interviews and articles about them, they have been yes

3) Yes voters in the main are arrogant, self righteous, condescending and sanctimonious, who look down on anyone who disagrees with thier point of view, call people who want to vote no as small minded and uncivilised.

swampgas · 09-05-2018 02:30PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

But that's the place where most disagree. Some think that life begins at birth, some belief it begins when the baby is conceived.

Some believe a termination when the child and mother are healthy, to be murder.

Please tell me why what SOME believe should be imposed on everyone?

Anyone who thinks abortion is murder or who thinks abortion is wrong will never be forced to have an abortion. However right now ALL women are being denied access to abortion in Ireland because SOME people want to keep controlling other people's live and other people's bodies.

SOME people need to butt out of other people's lives and healthcare.

spookwoman · 09-05-2018 02:30PM

kylith wrote: »

It was taught that men had a right to have sex and women had a duty to let them, within marriage. They would not have thought in terms or rape or duress, it was the way it was.

My issue would be with the priest not telling the husband to lay off for a bit, or discussing the rhythm method.

Same thing crossed my mind I cannot imagine how that woman must have been feeling to say no more. And then have the husband run squealing to the priest, she must have felt betrayed among other things.
If that was to happen today divorce papers would be on the table the next day by any woman

ASISEEIT · 09-05-2018 02:31PM

Basically this debate comes down to the following- do you accept or reject fact that the life in the womb is a baby and thus worthy of prorection. Its not about whether you want the child or not. There are unwanted children in the world and we don't shoot them because of that.

Rape and fatal foetal anomalies are side issues. Pregnancies by rape are statitically small. If however you passed a law allowing abortion for just that i would support it because of the non consent issue. The rest of us humping and bumping know the consequences
There is no accepted medical term for FFA so no law could be designed to allow it but we can't slaughter others to satisty a tiny miniority. If we made laws like that we would ban a huge amount of stuff
Adoption is a real option and people should realise the law has radically changed. Its no longer a case of no contact with your child if you put him or her up for adoption
The bodily integrity argument is bull because if taken to logical conclusion would permit prostitution,self harm and heroin addiction
I cant support anything that would allow a doctor to scrap out arms,legs and skull of a baby . End of story . 12 weeks my backside. Proposed law allows that to be extended under circumstances and we know what happened in England after 1967

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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