8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

amcalester · 08-05-2018 05:02PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Pro-lifers would like to change the mindset, not jail women, being vindictive is not how one changes minds.

Forcing a women who's been raped to continue with a pregnancy she doesn't want seems pretty vindictive.

Ally Dick · 08-05-2018 05:02PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

oh Robert! she asked for an abortion and the response was "this is a Catholic country"

Not a very nice response, but she was an Indian immigrant living in Ireland...and subject to the laws of Ireland

RobertKK · 08-05-2018 05:02PM

amcalester wrote: »

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Read the reports, they clearly say it was mismanagement by the hospital.

SusieBlue · 08-05-2018 05:03PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Eh I agree with Yes voters but your mother didn't have to have sex,
How is it the countries fault she had that many kids ?

Not very helpful or useful advice to someone who is already pregnant and having a crisis.
"You didn't have to have sex" ---- I have one word for you. Hindsight.

gctest50 · 08-05-2018 05:03PM

RobertKK wrote: »

It would only advertise hospital incompetence as that was the main finding for her death. The establishment which includes the government have enough of a health crisis going on without having Savita on posters reminding people that the findings of the reports blame the hospital and the staff for not providing the required level of care - the hospital had to pay compensation for not doing their job properly.
Some Yes campaigners and abortion advocates have used her, but they no report which directly attributes her death to the 8th amendment.
So putting her image up on posters would just point to hospital mismanagement..

She died as a consequence of the Eighth Amendment," - Prof Boylan

I think Prof. Boylan would know

....... · 08-05-2018 05:04PM

This post has been deleted.

ohnonotgmail · 08-05-2018 05:04PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

oh Robert! she asked for an abortion and the response was "this is a Catholic country"

amcalester wrote: »

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Robert, would you cop on. You've been shown evidence again and again where the healthcare professionals in question admitted the 8th tied their hands.

If she had been given an abortion when she first requested one, the situation would never have escalated to the point where the sepsis killed her. That is indisputable.

There is nothing I can do if you refuse to believe the evidence in front of you but you are doing your side no favours by continuously misrepresenting the case.

Not to mention how disrespectful you are being to that woman and her family.

But sure even if he thought the 8th was to blame for her death he would just come back with

RobertKK wrote: »

...

Hard cases make bad law. ...

Triceratops Ballet · 08-05-2018 05:04PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Pro-lifers would like to change the mindset, not jail women, being vindictive is not how one changes minds.

well then pro lifers should be looking to change the laws that require women to be prosecuted. There is an easy way to do this, you can vote yes on the 25th.

ASISEEIT · 08-05-2018 05:04PM

optogirl wrote: »

There is not a form of adoption where you can 'change your mind'

Yes within a certain time frame there is. I think its between 6 months to a year.
There is also open adoption. You now have the right to keep contact with your child . Some people are time warped on this issue.
Bottom line is its much better all round for the baby , mother and the people yearning for a child. Lots of couples cant have kids.
I do accept that a woman might find it easier to abort than explain the bump but in the end its a better solution than pulling a child from the womb and dumping it. I will proably be banned for stating that fact. Pesky things facts.

ohnonotgmail · 08-05-2018 05:04PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

Not a very nice response, but she was an Indian immigrant living in Ireland...and subject to the laws of Ireland

laws that cost the lady her life.

amcalester · 08-05-2018 05:05PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Read the reports, they clearly say it was mismanagement by the hospital.

We all know you only the parts that confirm your opinions, this has been pointed as recently as today so I'm not going to bother quoting the parts of the report that show the doctors hands were tied by the 8th, and if an abortion had been performed when requested Savita would be alive today.

Zubeneschamali · 08-05-2018 05:05PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Some Yes campaigners and abortion advocates have used her, but they no report which directly attributes her death to the 8th amendment.

Really? What does this mean so:

O&G Consultant 1 stated that the patient and her husband were advised of Irish law in relation to this. At interview the consultant stated “Under Irish law, if there’s no evidence of risk to the life of the mother, our hands are tied so long as there’s a fetal heart”. The consultant stated that if risk to the mother was to increase a termination would have been possible, but that it would be based on actual risk and not a theoretical risk of infection “we can’t predict who is going to get an infection”.

Triceratops Ballet · 08-05-2018 05:06PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

Not a very nice response, but she was an Indian immigrant living in Ireland...and subject to the laws of Ireland

yes, that's the point, she was subject to the laws which prohibit abortion, so despite the fact that she was actively miscarrying, she was denied an abortion which could have saved her life.

bootpaws · 08-05-2018 05:06PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Not very helpful or useful advice to someone who is already pregnant and having a crisis.
"You didn't have to have sex" ---- I have one word for you. Hindsight.

I'd also like to add that my grandmother, while parenting 11 young children, once told my granddad that she was refusing to have sex with him because she didn't want anymore.

He went right to the church and told the local priest, who called my grandmother down to have a chat about her duties as a wife.

Things are never so simple, and they certainly weren't back then.

yourdeadwright · 08-05-2018 05:07PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Eh I agree with Yes voters but your mother didn't have to have sex,
How is it the countries fault she had that many kids ?

Not very helpful or useful advice to someone who is already pregnant and having a crisis.
"You didn't have to have sex" ---- I have one word for you. Hindsight.

I'm all for voting yes but Jesus Christ people need to be responsible ,she said she wanted 3 and had 7 when do people learn ,

ohnonotgmail · 08-05-2018 05:07PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Yes within a certain time frame there is. I think its between 6 months to a year.

you think? based on what?

Zubeneschamali · 08-05-2018 05:08PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Pro-lifers would like to change the mindset, not jail women, being vindictive is not how one changes minds.

Then we should repeal the 8th, since it requires the state to keep abortion a crime with a very substantial jail sentence attached, as in the POLDPA.

yourdeadwright · 08-05-2018 05:08PM

bootpaws wrote: »

SusieBlue wrote: »

Not very helpful or useful advice to someone who is already pregnant and having a crisis.
"You didn't have to have sex" ---- I have one word for you. Hindsight.

I'd also like to add that my grandmother, while parenting 11 young children, once told my granddad that she was refusing to have sex with him because she didn't want anymore.

He went right to the church and told the local priest, who called my grandmother down to have a chat about her duties as a wife.

Things are never so simple, and they certainly weren't back then.

That's your grand fathers fault for being a pig not the countries ,Vote yes but don't lose responsibility

Triceratops Ballet · 08-05-2018 05:09PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but Jesus Christ people need to be responsible ,she said she wanted 3 and had 7 when do people learn ,

so the married couple in question should just never have had sex again, until she had passed menopause?

ohnonotgmail · 08-05-2018 05:09PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but Jesus Christ people need to be responsible ,she said she wanted 3 and had 7 when do people learn ,

you did read the post where it said that marital rape was not a crime before 1990, right? what makes you think she had much of a choice?

Zubeneschamali · 08-05-2018 05:11PM

Ally Dick wrote: »

she was an Indian immigrant living in Ireland...and subject to the laws of Ireland

That's why we should change the law, so that an Indian immigrant living here could get the same high standard of care she would get in a hospital in her home country.

Or at least survive her care here to escape home to a civilized country.

RobertKK · 08-05-2018 05:11PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Robert, would you cop on. You've been shown evidence again and again where the healthcare professionals in question admitted the 8th tied their hands.

If she had been given an abortion when she first requested one, the situation would never have escalated to the point where the sepsis killed her. That is indisputable.

There is nothing I can do if you refuse to believe the evidence in front of you but you are doing your side no favours by continuously misrepresenting the case.

Not to mention how disrespectful you are being to that woman and her family.

Don't tell me to cop on, if you can't read reports that is not my fault.

Look at the reports.

From HIQA report in her death.
https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/hiqa-savita-halappanavar-report.pdf

14.11 Concluding remarks
The findings of this investigation reflect a failure in the provision of the most basic
elements of patient care to Savita Halappanavar and also the failure to recognise
and act upon signs of her clinical deterioration in a timely and appropriate manner.
The missed opportunities to intervene in her care that have been identified in this investigation, if acted upon, may have resulted in a different outcome for Savita Halappanavar.

The investigation found concerning deficits in how learning, particularly in the areas
of maternity services and clinically deteriorating patients, has been adopted and
implemented following previous investigations and inquiries. These deficits include
an inability to apply system–wide learning to minimise clinical risk for all patients
from adverse findings in one part of the system for the benefit of all service
users. At the heart of this ability to learn is the culture and leadership within an
organisation that actively seeks out ways to continually improve the quality and
safety of services for their population in an open and transparent way with clear
accountability and responsibility arrangements to do so. The achievement of this
must be an aim for all healthcare providers.

This investigation clearly shows that
where responsibility for implementation of learning is not clearly owned, then
learning nationally does not happen, as demonstrated in the findings relating
to the HSE enquiry into the death Tania McCabe and her son Zach in 2007, the
circumstances of which have a disturbing resemblance to the case of Savita
Halappanavar.

Go and tell HIQA they are not being respectful...

seamus · 08-05-2018 05:11PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but Jesus Christ people need to be responsible ,she said she wanted 3 and had 7 when do people learn ,

Are you that naive?

So, she can't get contraception. She can't have an abortion. Society says that her husband is the master of the house and sex is a wife's duty. Religion says that masturbation, or otherwise "spilling the seed" is a sin. The law says that a husband can have sex with his wife whenever she wants.

But apparently she was "irresponsible" in having more children.

Jesus Christ, people need to look beyond their narrow life experience.

ASISEEIT · 08-05-2018 05:11PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you think? based on what?

I will check or you can check. Its also possible to have ongoing contact with your child once adopted.

January · 08-05-2018 05:13PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but Jesus Christ people need to be responsible ,she said she wanted 3 and had 7 when do people learn ,

Bingo.

I wanted 4. I got pregnant again, so I had an abortion. I took responsibility.

Billy86 · 08-05-2018 05:13PM

seamus wrote: »

Are you that naive?

So, she can't get contraception. She can't have an abortion. Society says that her husband is the master of the house and sex is a wife's duty. Religion says that masturbation, or otherwise "spilling the seed" is a sin. The law says that a husband can have sex with his wife whenever she wants.

But apparently she was "irresponsible" in having more children.

Jesus Christ, people need to look beyond their narrow life experience.

And since this would have all happened prior to 1991, if I'm correct it would have been legal for the husband to rape the wife at the time if she refused him sex?

RobertKK · 08-05-2018 05:13PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's why we should change the law, so that an Indian immigrant living here could get the same high standard of care she would get in a hospital in her home country.

Or at least survive her care here to escape home to a civilized country.

They have high maternal death in India.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/health/india-s-maternal-mortality-rate-on-a-decline/story-ZcnBG0kidtvPEkRnKNI0II.html

The maternal mortality rate (MMR) that highlights the number of mothers dying per 100,000 live births, may be on a decline, still about five women die every hour in India from complications developed during childbirth.

Most of these new mums succumb to heavy blood loss (post-partum haemorrhage).

The recent World Bank data puts the MMR for India reported in 2015 at 174 per 100, 000 live births, which is a significant decline from the 215 figure that was reported in 2010.

In absolute numbers, nearly 45,000 mothers die due to causes related to childbirth every year that accounts for 17% of such deaths globally.

eviltwin · 08-05-2018 05:16PM

ASISEEIT wrote: »

Yes within a certain time frame there is. I think its between 6 months to a year.
There is also open adoption. You now have the right to keep contact with your child . Some people are time warped on this issue.
Bottom line is its much better all round for the baby , mother and the people yearning for a child. Lots of couples cant have kids.
I do accept that a woman might find it easier to abort than explain the bump but in the end its a better solution than pulling a child from the womb and dumping it. I will proably be banned for stating that fact. Pesky things facts.

Open adoption doesn't exist in Ireland. There's nothing to stop adoptive parents allowing contact with the birth parents but there is no legal framework for that and it can be removed at any stage.

Once a birth mother has signed over her child she has no rights.

Maybe you are confusing it with family adoption, it's probably more likely there will be continued contact with the birth parents there.

Where do you get the idea that adoption is better for the woman? How is forcing someone to remain pregnant against her will better for any woman?

yourdeadwright · 08-05-2018 05:16PM

seamus wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm all for voting yes but Jesus Christ people need to be responsible ,she said she wanted 3 and had 7 when do people learn ,

Are you that naive?

So, she can't get contraception. She can't have an abortion. Society says that her husband is the master of the house and sex is a wife's duty. Religion says that masturbation, or otherwise "spilling the seed" is a sin. The law says that a husband can have sex with his wife whenever she wants.

But apparently she was "irresponsible" in having more children.

Jesus Christ, people need to look beyond their narrow life experience.

I had two set of grand parents much older than 70 and my parents are older than 70, and none had these issues, These are not issues caused by the 8th, for godsake,
I'm all for voting YES but keep it sensible

RobertKK · 08-05-2018 05:17PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Then we should repeal the 8th, since it requires the state to keep abortion a crime with a very substantial jail sentence attached, as in the POLDPA.

There will always be penalties for illegal abortions, they have penalties for illegal abortions where they are legal, in England it is up to life in prison.

8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

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