8th amendment referendum part 3 - Mod note and FAQ in post #1

pleas advice wrote: »

correlation is not causation, thats more to do with education and availability of contraception


your first link pretty much backs up exactly what i was saying...

Here’s one for you from the World Health Organisation if that is a source you will accept:

• Highly restrictive abortion laws are not associated with lower abortion rates.

You can read it in full on page 3 (or read the whole article).

http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/publications/unsafe_abortion/induced_abortion_2012.pdf

Killester1 wrote: »

A couple of weeks ago, Leo announced that he was giving the YES campaign 50,000e to 100,000e depending how their campaign was going......tax payers money. My taxes. How is that fair and democratic?

Source?

AllForIt wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, how are trans people deeply affected by this issue more than anyone else?

I didnt say more than anyone else. Stop making my words up. Trans men who still have wombs are affected by this.

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Don't be so rude. just because I'm not approaching this yes vote in exactly the same way as you does not mean I'm complacent.

I am confident this will be repealed, that is not complacency.

I work out in the community, I bring this topic up all the time. I am confident in what I am saying, that most people I talk to will vote Yes. Now I also agree with another poster that they could be saying yes to repealers and No to save the 8th.

I also believe in the polls - I don't think all the undecideds are all no voters. Some of those will be yes and I think this amendment will be repealed.

Your opinion isnt the only opinion, I'm entitled to mine as well, thats why we're on a discussion forum.

We are on the same side you know.

Statistically speaking, in Ireland especially, "don't knows" gravitate towards no and not yes. So that is all the the no side are trying to do with their falsehoods and lies and doctored photos. They don't need to convince YES voters to move to NO, merely to "dont know". And they are doing a good job considering they have absolutely nothing to fight with. Hence the fake stats, fake doctors etc they make it up.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I didnt say more than anyone else. Stop making my words up. Trans men who still have wombs are affected by this.

Trans people are a very small part of the population. And as a percentage of the trans community, female to male transitions leaving an intact reproductive system are less common than others. So when you have a small percentage of a tiny percentage it's an outlier statistically speaking.

While I sympathise with your point, and those affected, the repeal side really needs to focus on what will win the referendum. And (no offense intended, purely statistics) speaking about men with wombs will not do that.

What will win the referendum is ensuring the voter base understands that all the no posters are rubbish, and lies. And ensuring that they understand the effect the 8th has on female rights and on healthcare. Finally they should understand even if they don't "like" abortions, they are happening anyway.

https://www.thejournal.ie/how-many-irish-travel-to-uk-for-abortions-3986043-May2018/

Article posted earlier on in thread, just bringing it back up.

NINE WOMEN AND girls leave Ireland every day to have a termination in the UK. A further three order abortion pills online.

That's 12 abortions everyday for Irish women and girls, abortions had for any and every wide ranging reason under the sun. Is that not heartbreaking for everyone? 9 women and girls having to leave their home country for essential medical care. 3 women and girls taking abortion pills in their bathroom, in their bedroom, without essential medical care.

The vast majority of these abortions (92%) were performed under 13 weeks of pregnancy.

In 2016, 4,810 abortions were carried out on women who were not residents of England and Wales – compared with 5,190 in 2015. The number of abortions to non-residents has fallen each year since 2003, when the figure was 9,078. The 2016 number is the lowest in any year since 1969.

92% of abortions carried out before 13 weeks. Nobody is talking about murdering 6 month old babies, only the No side are making up those lies. 92% of abortions are carried out within the time limit being proposed for Ireland.

In fact

Some 85% of the terminations took place within 12 weeks of gestation, with the majority of these (2,256) taking place within the first nine weeks.

85% took place within the first 9 weeks, even earlier in pregnancy than our proposed change will allow for.

Almost four in five of the women and girls (79%) had not had a previous abortion.

So it is fairly uncommon for our women and girls to have more than one abortion.

On abortion pills

Commenting on figures when they were released last year, Helen Deely, head of the HSE Sexual Health and Crisis Pregnancy Programme, said: “It appears that the rate of women travelling abroad for an abortion declined relatively rapidly between 2001 and 2007 and in recent years the decline has been more gradual.”

Figures published by one provider would suggest a 62% increase in the number of women from Ireland contacting that online service over a five-year period, from 548 in 2010 to 1438 in 2015.

The authors report that the number of women who consult with the service is not indicative of the actual number of women who were sent the abortion pill and subsequently took it.

And this is the scary part

approximately one in 10 (9.3%) “reported to the online provider that they were experiencing a symptom for which they were advised to seek medical advice and 95% sought medical advice as advised”

Imagine a woman or girl taking an abortion pill at home in their bedroom, already pushed into doing this in secrecy and then she has a symptom that causes her to need medical advice. Can you imagine the fear and the panic? That is not fair and our women and girls may wait before seeking medical care, afraid and hoping whatever they're experiencing will pass, which is dangerous.

And now, the reasons for having an abortion

Lohr told the committee there is “little difference between the reasons why women from Ireland present compared to those from the UK”. She said the reasons given by women and girls seeking abortions are “diverse and multifaceted”.

They involve “financial hardship, knowledge that her family is complete, inadequate partner or family support, domestic violence, or simply feeling they are not in the position to care for a baby at that point in their lives”, Lohr stated.

Of Irish women who receive abortion care in the UK, 70% are married or with a partner. Nearly half have already had at least one previous birth, meaning they are already mothers. All this is in keeping with information we have for women from the UK.

Lohr noted that, while some abortions “take place of pregnancies that were planned and indeed wanted, such as those for foetal anomaly, the majority of the women we see were trying to avoid pregnancy when they conceived”.

She said the majority of women from Ireland who had abortions in the UK were using a form of contraception when they conceived. An analysis of 2,703 women from Ireland who were treated at BPAS clinic over a four-year period found they were using the following forms of contraception:

3.1%: Intrauterine contraceptive/implant/sterilisation
28.8%: Injection/oral contraceptives/patch/ring
47.6%: Condom/diaphragm/fertility-awareness based methods
20.4%: No method

The 20% using no contraception are not necessarily "young and stupid", there are also many reasons why some women and girls can't use any contraception.

Then on the type of abortion

However, the majority of early abortions provided for Irish women are performed surgically – 71%, compared to 28% for women resident in England and Wales.

Lohr said this is because, for financial and practical reasons, many women travelling from Ireland “often aim to fly in and out of the UK within a day, and as medical abortion involves leaving the clinic after taking the second set of medication and going home to pass the pregnancy, it is not clinically optimal for that to happen on the way to the airport or the flight home”.

“Effectively this means that women from Ireland are in all practical senses denied a choice of method in abortion,” Lohr said.

Lohr then spoke about why some Irish women and girls may have an abortion later in their pregnancy (but still quite early in their pregnancy)

“Reasons for later presentation will include the time it takes to organise travel and make logistical arrangements, particularly for those with work and childcare commitments,” she stated.

So, by denying our women and girls access to abortion services here in Ireland, they are sometimes being forced to continue with their pregnancy longer than necessary, which impacts their physical and mental health.

I urge anyone and everyone to read, research and educate yourself on what we'll be voting on on 25th May. This isn't about "killing babies" or "a licence to kill" or any of that other nonsense, this is about full, compassionate medical care for Irish women and girls here in Ireland. This is very important, this affects you regardless of whether you are a man or a woman.

Repeal the 8th.

ELM327 wrote: »

You have given reasons but they are anecdotal, not empirical.

For what it's worth, I agree with your point though. I think this is a very close run referendum and there will be no more than 10 percentage points in it. Probably closer to 5.

Eh no

The data taken on doorsteps is effectively an opinion poll. I am not talking about speaking to a few people.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Eh no

The data taken on doorsteps is effectively an opinion poll. I am not talking about speaking to a few people.

I'm not suprised your data has you thinking a no will win, especially if the attitude here is what you use IRL. I said in the very first thread its up to the repeal side to loose it that since the no side have no actual argument. You're managing to start arguments and disagreements with Yes voters because they dont 100% agree with you and it is stupid. That lecturing "I'm right you're wrong" attitude will push any undecideds to vote no.

Right lads can we stop the squabbling and just accept that despite our difference of opinion on certain things we're still ultimately voting yes, and be thankful for that?

No need for this back and forth at all, serves no purpose whatsoever.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Grand yeah. At the end of the day I believe we shouldnt be complacent and believe a yes vote is inevitable. In my view such complacency is dangerous (it may mean yes voters dont bother turning up on the day) Thats all. Nothing else.

All forward for repeal - nothing to see here now

Mrsmum wrote: »

Ah here now, as an argument for abortion, I have to say I find this a scraping the bottom of the barrel one. At the very least you should change the "would" above to could. And this notion that's being put out here that non pregnant women are not getting treatment in their droves is bizarre to me. Blimey so prevalent is it, apparently trans men are even in danger ! The truth is all over Ireland right now, non pregnant women are getting all sorts of treatment and not being denied it at all unlike what the narrative on here suggests. One of my friends, a woman in her mid forties is being treated for cancer and that's as serious as it gets. Who doesn't know a woman who is on anti depression medication and any number of women with all manner of other medical issues getting treatment. Yet if someone landed from Mars and read this thread, he could be forgiven for thinking refusing treatment to non pregnant women of child bearing age was the norm. Well he'd be very wrong.
However of course medical personnel have to check if women of child bearing age might be pregnant before certain procedures are done and certain medicines are given. They would be medically negligent if they didn't. And same applies in UK or every other country also. And the reason they check before ploughing ahead is that most people would not thank them at all for damaging their foetus/baby in the womb by radiation or whatever. The exact same will still happen even if the 8th is repealed unless you expect them to say instead "listen Mary, we can skip the pregnancy questions on this form so long as I know you are happy enough to abort if this treatment damages the contents of your womb should it turn out you are pregnant" !

How dare you deny the actuality of the harm the 8th does.

My partner was denied a scan on her back due to the fact that, as she takes a combined contraceptive pill, it stops the menstruation cycle. Not even a doctor's negative pregnancy test (which was supplied) allowed the scan to take place.

I should point out that the "trans men" argument is not introduced by me, and does not represent what I think is relevant to the discussion. You are far more likely to have an engaging discussion with someone on the fence if you talk about the harm the 8th has on women's healthcare, as opposed to mentioning pregnant men.

Flying Fox wrote: »

Several posters on this thread have given their own real life examples of basic tests being denied 'just in case' they're pregnant, even when the know they can't be. Are you calling them liars?

I'm really not getting drawn into the crazy dramatics around here so don't think it's gonna happen folks. Consider this my answer to all like minded replys. Jeez even poor Joey the parrot quickly realised you better not say a thing the mob don't like and he was on the same side and actually I thought he made a reasonable point.
I am saying that of course medical personnel here have to check if a patient is pregnant before administering treatment. That's common sense for the medical people to cover their legal asses like that same as they do in every country because when push comes to shove they would very quickly be sued if the treatment they gave a woman harmed her foetus. On a previous post someone said she regularly lies to them so therefore they'd be mad to just believe someone if the treatment is such that it would harm a foetus.