Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

irishfan9 · 03-05-2018 02:45PM

ulster apparently produce too many backs so...

9. Cooney
10. Carbery
11. Gilroy
12. McCloskey
13. Marshall
14. Stockdale
15. Ludik
21. Shanahan
22. McPhillips
23. Cave

launish116 · 03-05-2018 02:47PM

irishfan9 wrote: »

ulster apparently produce too many backs so...

9. Cooney
10. Carbery
11. Gilroy
12. McCloskey
13. Marshall
14. Stockdale
15. Ludik
21. Shanahan
22. McPhillips
23. Cave

Addison & lowry in the mix. We genuinely are stretched now.

awec · 03-05-2018 02:48PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Ummm... I'm not completely disagreeing with you here, but I recall a lot of discussion at the beginning of the season when Carbery was being selected at full back for six matches in a row. Joe Schmidt and Leo Cullen both commented at length on the situation and Joe was quoted as saying 'he understood' the issues that Cullen was trying to fix. And Leo was saying similar things about what would be the ideal situation except for the injury to Kearney. So Joey was getting started at 15 because he needed some sort of game time and Ross Byrne was ten because he could play nowhere else.

Now aside from what the reasons were, it was obvious that there was discussion between Joe and Leo on the subject. Maybe Joe wasn't telling Leo who to pick, but he was clearly asking him why he wsn't picking Joey at ten. And then Joey got injured and the can went off down the road until after the 6N when lo and behold, Joey gets started at ten and benches behind Sexton. Ross Byrne becomes waterboy.

Yes.

The implication on here is that Ulster could take Carbery and play him at 15 or on the bench every single week and Schmidt, Nucifora and co could do absolutely nothing about it.

Of course this just isn't reality.

awec · 03-05-2018 02:50PM

jacothelad wrote: »

I'm certain that Schmidt has said that he doesn't 'order' coaches where and how they use players and I think Kiss confirmed this for example in the case of Henderson. I am also certain that Deccie did, by using Paddy Wallace at 10.

If Joe really has such faith in Carbery, logic would dictate that if Byrne is outside of Ireland's plans then he should be the one encouraged to move to Ulster. This would leave Joey playing alongside McGrath and partnering Henshaw and Ringrose, also utilising the experience of Sexton. That would accelerate his development much faster than playing with the likes of Cooney who is good, Shanahan who isn't and with non-international backline players outside, If Carbery does move and he is not cutting it I hope that he isn't simply selected because of the situation. Nor do I think that Ulster should accept him on a one year deal. It does Ulster and it's players a disservice. Byrne for 2 years while Joey makes or breaks it at Leinster.

It's not like we'd be able to say no, but if it's only one year I'd hope we use him as minimally as possible.

prawnsambo · 03-05-2018 03:02PM

Buer wrote: »

Goodnight, sweet prince.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8qbtSnPUyg

He's had a great career really. Over 200 Ulster caps and 70 for Ireland. A couple of 6N medals and the rarest of rare achievements; beating the ABs.

Squidgy Black · 03-05-2018 03:06PM

awec wrote: »

It's not like we'd be able to say no, but if it's only one year I'd hope we use him as minimally as possible.

Can I be the first one to point out that you were previously saying that McPhilip's is nowhere near Pro14 standard and it was completely unacceptable for him to be the starting 10, and now you're saying if you were to get Carbery for a year at 10 you wouldn't want him to play because he'd be taking gametime away from McPhilip's?

:pac:

molloyjh · 03-05-2018 03:09PM

jacothelad wrote: »

I'm certain that Schmidt has said that he doesn't 'order' coaches where and how they use players and I think Kiss confirmed this for example in the case of Henderson. I am also certain that Deccie did, by using Paddy Wallace at 10.

If Joe really has such faith in Carbery, logic would dictate that if Byrne is outside of Ireland's plans then he should be the one encouraged to move to Ulster. This would leave Joey playing alongside McGrath and partnering Henshaw and Ringrose, also utilising the experience of Sexton. That would accelerate his development much faster than playing with the likes of Cooney who is good, Shanahan who isn't and with non-international backline players outside, If Carbery does move and he is not cutting it I hope that he isn't simply selected because of the situation. Nor do I think that Ulster should accept him on a one year deal. It does Ulster and it's players a disservice. Byrne for 2 years while Joey makes or breaks it at Leinster.

And then what happens at Leinster during the international windows. It's one thing to have Team Ireland take priority. It's another thing to have Team Ireland shaft the province keeping Team Ireland afloat. The words nose and face spring to mind.

awec wrote: »

Yes.

The implication on here is that Ulster could take Carbery and play him at 15 or on the bench every single week and Schmidt, Nucifora and co could do absolutely nothing about it.

Of course this just isn't reality.

Except it is reality right now. Why wouldn't it be reality next season? Why was Byrne at 10 in Galway on Saturday and Joey at 15? We could have had Jordan Larmour at 15, James Lowe could have played there, Barry Daly has played there too so he was an option. It was a nothing game. If Joe was ever going to be able to successfully persuade a provincial coach to do something surely that was a perfect opportunity?

molloyjh · 03-05-2018 03:11PM

awec wrote: »

It's not like we'd be able to say no, but if it's only one year I'd hope we use him as minimally as possible.

I'd hope you use him in the ways that serve Ulster best. If that's on the bench, at 15, at home watching it on the tele or starting at 10 then so be it. Don't be so spiteful as to....well, again, the words nose and face spring to mind.

prawnsambo · 03-05-2018 03:18PM

molloyjh wrote: »

Except it is reality right now. Why wouldn't it be reality next season? Why was Byrne at 10 in Galway on Saturday and Joey at 15? We could have had Jordan Larmour at 15, James Lowe could have played there, Barry Daly has played there too so he was an option. It was a nothing game. If Joe was ever going to be able to successfully persuade a provincial coach to do something surely that was a perfect opportunity?

Except he kinda did play ten. He took all the kicks and was in the line a lot often as a second playmaker. It was a shambles of a game from a Leinster POV, but that struck me at the time.

And I think I said this before, but Ross Byrne needed game time. He hadn't played since 7th April and if the unthinkable happened in the next few weeks, we could well have him on the bench for an important match without a game for six weeks.

awec · 03-05-2018 03:20PM

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Can I be the first one to point out that you were previously saying that McPhilip's is nowhere near Pro14 standard and it was completely unacceptable for him to be the starting 10, and now you're saying if you were to get Carbery for a year at 10 you wouldn't want him to play because he'd be taking gametime away from McPhilip's?

:pac:

Well he's not, but if the best we're getting is Joey Carbery for a year we may as well just take the hit.

Awesomeness · 03-05-2018 03:24PM

awec wrote: »

Well he's not, but if the best we're getting is Joey Carbery for a year we may as well just take the hit.

But why was that not the case when CL was brought in?

I have sympathy and actually think mcphillips could be a fine player but there will be plenty of game time for both.

And rather than it being a kick the can down the road it could be more about biding time till a top class NIQ becomes available after the world cup

Squidgy Black · 03-05-2018 03:27PM

awec wrote: »

Well he's not, but if the best we're getting is Joey Carbery for a year we may as well just take the hit.

Would you not be better off taking Carbery for a year and then waiting until after the WC to get a proper 10 to step in? Signing the likes of Donald or Myler would only make sense if you're looking to get someone in to mentor McPhilips with the view that he's your long term option at 10.

Otherwise it's possibly the worst time to be looking at other 10s, options are extremely scarce.

Yeah_Right · 03-05-2018 03:54PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I was right above the action when Trimble emptied Liam Squire in Chicago. He won Ireland a crucial scrum and the rest is history.

You mean when he shoulder charged Liam Squire in the head :mad:

mfceiling · 03-05-2018 04:06PM

What is the story with Carberry?

He's not getting game time at 10 for Leinster so he needs to be getting a chance to play at 10 elsewhere. Send him to Ulster so. But he really isn't pushed on moving. Well needs must and if he isn't playing 10 more often then it's detrimental to ireland.
What about Ulster's lack of depth at 10? Send in Carberry. But he's playing 15 at Leinster. Well he can play 10 Ulster. Why not 15 at Ulster? Because they need a 10. So why push him there to play 10? Ireland. So who's idea is it to send him to Ulster to play 10? Nobody's idea....it's just he needs game time.
Fierce amount of he's needed for this and needed for that.

prawnsambo · 03-05-2018 04:10PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You mean when he shoulder charged Liam Squire in the head :mad:

looks fine to me.

Neil3030 · 03-05-2018 04:27PM

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd hope you use him in the ways that serve Ulster best. If that's on the bench, at 15, at home watching it on the tele or starting at 10 then so be it. Don't be so spiteful as to....well, again, the words nose and face spring to mind.

The spiteful cohort can bleat all they want.

Ulster will play Carbery at 10, and they'll do it with a smile on their face.

Former Former · 03-05-2018 04:52PM

mfceiling wrote: »

What is the story with Carberry?

He's not getting game time at 10 for Leinster so he needs to be getting a chance to play at 10 elsewhere. Send him to Ulster so. But he really isn't pushed on moving. Well needs must and if he isn't playing 10 more often then it's detrimental to ireland.
What about Ulster's lack of depth at 10? Send in Carberry. But he's playing 15 at Leinster. Well he can play 10 Ulster. Why not 15 at Ulster? Because they need a 10. So why push him there to play 10? Ireland. So who's idea is it to send him to Ulster to play 10? Nobody's idea....it's just he needs game time.
Fierce amount of he's needed for this and needed for that.

The enlarged, bolded text is the only bit that matters.

If Ireland didn't need Carbery to step up a level, he wouldn't be going to Ulster. If Ireland didn't need Carbery to get more game time at 10, no one would be asking Leinster to do anything.

Ulster don't need him? Doesn't matter.
Ulster fans don't want any more Leinster players? Doesn't matter
Leinster want to keep all three out-halves? Doesn't matter.

Everything has to be subservient to the national team. Generally I hate that perspective but a year out from the World Cup, it's the only approach possible.

Buer · 03-05-2018 05:04PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You mean when he shoulder charged Liam Squire in the head :mad:

looks fine to me.

Indeed. Glad to see agreement. In the words of the greatest referee ever, we have a deal.

mfceiling · 03-05-2018 05:06PM

Former Former wrote: »

The enlarged, bolded text is the only bit that matters.

If Ireland didn't need Carbery to step up a level, he wouldn't be going to Ulster. If Ireland didn't need Carbery to get more game time at 10, no one would be asking Leinster to do anything.

Ulster don't need him? Doesn't matter.
Ulster fans don't want any more Leinster players? Doesn't matter
Leinster want to keep all three out-halves? Doesn't matter.

Everything has to be subservient to the national team. Generally I hate that perspective but a year out from the World Cup, it's the only approach possible.

Well and good but we're told that nobody is forcing him to go anywhere and that no one is pushing for him to play 10.
So what's he going to Ulster for on a very short term contract? To play 10? He's not being forced to play 10? So let him stay with leinster to fight 15 out with Kearney.

DGRulz · 03-05-2018 05:09PM

Trimble to retire at the end of the season.

Larbre34 · 03-05-2018 05:42PM

DGRulz wrote: »

Trimble to retire at the end of the season.

At the same time as Tommy Bowe?

Shall we expect the pressure to come to send James Lowe and Jordan Larmour north as well?

Sinbad_NI · 03-05-2018 06:22PM

Anytime I've seen Cadbury ðŸ˜ play for Leinster it's been at 15.
What's he actually been like at 10 for them?

I've only really seen him at 10 during his cameos for Ireland which haven't offered much insight.

Would love to see McPhilips really kicking on and going up a notch, then that'll leave JC to play 15 ðŸ˜€

irishbucsfan · 03-05-2018 06:23PM

Sinbad_NI wrote: »

Anytime I've seen Cadbury ðŸ˜ play for Leinster it's been at 15.
What's he actually been like at 10 for them?

I've only really seen him at 10 during his cameos for Ireland which haven't offered much insight.

Would love to see McPhilips really kicking on and going up a notch, then that'll leave JC to play 15 &#55357;&#56832;

He's not been great at 10 this season but he was extremely promising there last season. He's got huge potential at 10.

stephen_n · 03-05-2018 06:48PM

awec wrote: »

This doesn't even begin to make sense.

Leinster have Johnny Sexton and Ross Byrne.

What is astounding here is your lack of outrage about Ulster signing another short term stop gap, after all the complaining you did about them playing Lealiifaano instead of their own academy players.

How does it not make sense, except in your twisted paranoid anti IRFU mind. You can take Sexton out of the equation as he only plays 10 games. If the IRFU could dictate starts, it would be Byrne who they’d be pushing out, so what’s the difference with McPhilips, other than rampant paranoia?

Because the last time I checked Lealiifaano wasn’t a homegrown talent, who was second choice 10 for Ireland. Any other strawmen you’d like to throw up there?

stl.ire · 03-05-2018 06:59PM

I don’t envy Carbery’s situation if he arrives on a loan. And not because of the Ulster pack/coaching etc - which is not a bad as some would make out.

Instead as an Ulster fan even though I will want Ulster and any Ulster players to do well it’s going to be hard not to have small lingering hope that he doesn’t become an amazing 10. While I am happy if we develop Irelands future 10 I don’t particularly want to develop Leinster’s future 10. If McPhillips were to do a Byrne and pass him in the pecking order it would probably, unfortunately, bring me some joy as ‘our’ guy would beat out Leinster’s guy. I can definitely see some Ulster fans being over critical of Carbery and over praising of McPhillips next season.

As I said, I would want Carbery to do well as an Ulster player (and I like him a lot as a player and I like Leinster). I just know that I will have a very small part of me fighting that. I suppose it’s like Munster fans who hate drugs cheats but still want Grobler to help them win.

I’m not saying this to be about me just to say I will feel bad for Carbery because I think if I feel this way then other, more extreme Ulster fans will treat him really poorly if this 1 year loan happens.

jacothelad · 03-05-2018 07:21PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

You mean when he shoulder charged Liam Squire in the head :mad:

Only if Squire 's head grew out of his chest.:D:D

prawnsambo · 03-05-2018 07:35PM

jacothelad wrote: »

Only if Squire 's head grew out of his chest.:D:D

It does now.

bilston · 03-05-2018 08:56PM

And so retires probably my favourite Ulster player of the professional era.

A one club man through thick and thin. An all time Ulster legend and a very good servant to Ireland as well.

Plenty of career highlights.

Sorry to see him retire.

That's some turnover in backs now in the last 12 months.

Former Former · 03-05-2018 10:26PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

He's not been great at 10 this season but he was extremely promising there last season. He's got huge potential at 10.

This is it. Potential.

Ulster saw it in Jackson and literally went five years without a backup out half so as not to inhibit Jackson. It was a risk but they went with it. They shot themselves in the foot to develop him but you have to take these risks.

Carbery is 22. He's much better than Jackson was at that age and he's much, much better than Sexton was. We've all forgotten how ropey Sexton was at 22 but jaysus he was ropey. Rog was 23 when he melted down in the 2000 HC final.

This is low risk by comparison, if it happens.

Former Former · 03-05-2018 11:23PM

Whatever about Carbery, there's a growing possibility that Olding and Jackson are finished

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/43994265

I dunno. As much as I agreed with their sacking from Ulster, I would hope they'd land on their feet somewhere.

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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