The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

29-04-2018 03:17PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

The 8th amendment is more important than just abortion. Repelling it is very important for women's health.
Do all the lobbying & marching you want after, you can have a say in legislation

It wasnt me123 · 29-04-2018 03:18PM

I don't normally dissect posts but I will do it for this one if that's okay. I'm bolding it to make it easier to read.

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

There is name calling on both side - just look above at Conorhal's post - disgusting and he's a No voter - its regrettable but some people lose the run of themselves at times. The main reason the No voter is afraid to vote is because when asked to state the providence of their statement, they can't. They don't want to have a healthy debate, they come in post about baby murderers or a quote from Iona Institute and then disappear.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way to far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

You are voting on repealing the 8th amendment - not on abortion. That is for legislation. This is why Yes voters get so heated - No voters muddy the waters - stay on topic. We are voting to repeal a constitutional amendment - then we will have legislation - two totally different things.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

You might call a fetus the most vulnerable but I don't - I would keep that title for the homeless, elderly, people with learning or physical disabilities - you know, the people who are living and actually need our support - you are entitled to your opinion, I just don't think your opinion should take precedence over mine - choice for all.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

I also will vote on the 25th for yes - and I don't think you will have to fear a backlash as in every poll and the doorsteps, the majority want a Repeal.

Please continue to post, because its impossible to have a debate if there is only one side debating the facts.

AtomicHorror · 29-04-2018 03:18PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

There'd be protests. After that, a new campaign for repeal.

Boo!

SusieBlue · 29-04-2018 03:18PM

Killester1 wrote: »

Why wait till it happens!!! Take control of your body. That’s what the YES want isn’t it ....my body my choice ..... everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions and not have abortion as the fall back.

For some people having an abortion IS taking responsibility.
It being a choice you wouldn’t make doesn’t make it the wrong one.
I’ll keep repeating it until people understand.

iguana · 29-04-2018 03:21PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

But you aren't protecting them. Not one little bit. It's 2018 most people have the money and means to go to Britain/Europe and anyone who doesn't can get an abortion pill online. You aren't protecting one single foetus, please don't fool yourself about that. 35 years ago some abortions were prevented but that is not the case today. I can empathise with someone who voted for the 8th in the past when they were possibly protecting foetuses and did not understand that they were putting the lives and health of women at risk.

But here and now. No embryos or foetuses are being saved, wanted embryos and foetuses can be put at risk (in the case of twins where one is non viable and will kill the second if not aborted), women are routinely put at risk and families undergoing the bereavement of FFA are left without care. All so some people can pretend to save embryos and foetuses. Because that's all you are doing; pretending. increasingly few people are fooled by it and most of us who do understand are justifiably angry that anyone is willing to put fooling themselves ahead of women's safety.

Hammer Archer · 29-04-2018 03:21PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

You've no problem with the No side labelling yes voters/campaigners as murderers/baby killers I suppose (which has happened quite a bit). We've had No voters label people as stupid as well on this thread but it's telling that you only see the one side.

You vote no and that's your business. Personally, I would never want to see my partner, my daughter, my sister or any other girl/woman in my life be denied potentially life saving medical treatment, die because a miscarrying fetus still has a faint heartbeat, be kept alive on machines while her brain rots because a non viable fetus still has a heartbeat, be forced to have her baby's remains shipped by courier from the UK because she couldn't have her FFA pregnancy aborted here or even simply be forced to the UK (away from her support network and GP) to terminate a pregnancy because she cannot cope with a(nother) baby.
If you'd be happy to see the women/girls in your life deal with one (or more) of these things then by all means vote no. Personally I find the above situations absolutely barbaric.

AtomicHorror · 29-04-2018 03:23PM

ELM327 wrote: »

The word is not acceptable.
End of.

(Although I'm not sure what the politically correct word is, whatever it is, I'm sure that I'm currently corresponding with one )

"Intellectual disability" is the usual term.

That being said, conflating the intellectually lazy with the intellectually disabled is also not acceptable, regardless of the term you use for it.

AtomicHorror · 29-04-2018 03:30PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

For some people having an abortion IS taking responsibility.
It being a choice you wouldn’t make doesn’t make it the wrong one.
I’ll keep repeating it until people understand.

It is actually about completely the opposite of responsibility. If you have "no choice" under the law, then you're not responsible for the consequences of following the law.

It is slave morality. The same morality that drives Christianity and the rest of the lousy Abrahamic religions. Nobody has to be responsible when things go wrong if they never had a choice. The Word, the Bible, the Quaran, the Torah, the Law. The worst consequences can be regarded as a tragic manifestation of some grander plan or design, beyond the control of us all.

True responsibility only comes from choice. From having to look at the balance of your values, the possible consequences of each path, weigh it all up and then act. And then, accept personal responsibility for the outcome, good or bad.

The slaves call that "playing god".

SusieBlue · 29-04-2018 03:30PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

The 8th amendment does and will continue to effect my maternity care, as it will for every other pregnant woman in this country.
It ties the hands of doctors during an emergency, compromising the care both I and my baby will receive.
It adds stress to already stressful situations.
It states that the >12 week old fetus gestating in my uterus is of equal value and importance as me, a living, breathing, sentient, woman.

But it isn’t all about me.
It adds further distress and trauma to women experiencing FFA.
It casts shame and pressure on women having a crisis, unplanned pregnancy.
It further demeans women who have gone through rape.

It has neither the best interests or of women of babies at heart.
It isn’t medical best practice.
It was put in place to stop abortion and it hasn’t even achieved that.

Abortions have been happening in Ireland since the dawn of time. They are happening today. They will happen in the future.
For as long as women are conceiving, there will be women wanting to terminate.
Ireland never was and never will be an abortion free country.This is a fact.

We’ve just moved on from coat hangers and scalding bath to departure gates and ferry ports.

The question is whether we want to regulate this, by ensuring that the women who do seek terminations, can do so in a safe, supervised situation.
Or whether we’ll continue to stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it isn’t happening.

So maybe you can understand now why people aren’t tolerating No voters.
The No voters don’t care about these women or these families, and see them as collateral damage, a worthy sacrifice to keep Ireland ‘abortion free’.

We need to look after the living citizens we do have before offering any rights to potential people at their expense.

This is why I’ll be voting Yes. Repeal the 8th.

Killester1 · 29-04-2018 03:30PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

For some people having an abortion IS taking responsibility.
It being a choice you wouldn’t make doesn’t make it the wrong one.
I’ll keep repeating it until people understand.

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

AtomicHorror · 29-04-2018 03:31PM

Killester1 wrote: »

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

Who said it's the only solution? If it were, why would we be talking about choice? What alternative would there be to the only answer?

Zubeneschamali · 29-04-2018 03:32PM

Killester1 wrote: »

But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy.

It isn't the only solution.

But it is one of the solutions, and should be legally available to all, not just to those who can afford a trip to England.

robarmstrong · 29-04-2018 03:34PM

Killester1 wrote: »

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

Because the women don't want to be forced into a carrying a pregnancy full term, what part of that do you not understand?

A woman should not be forced into carrying a pregnancy she does not want to full term. If she wants an abortion she should have one, if she does not want one and instead wants to carry full term and give up for adoption then she may absolutely do that.

reubenreuben · 29-04-2018 03:35PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

Just reading through a lot of the posts here and the lack of respect and understanding from some yes voters for people who vote no is appalling really. Many calling anyone who votes no as idiots stupid etc. is quite insulting to be honest. It has come to the situation where people are afraid to express they are voting no in public which does not encourage healthy debate.

As someone who is going to vote no I have thought long and hard about this referendum and i understand where yes voters are coming from and I respect their views in terms of cases of rape, ffa and danger of life to the mother. However the unlimited abortion up to 12 weeks goes way too far for my liking and that is why I am voting no.

I can assure you I am not anti-women, an idiot, a jesus freak or whatever insult some yes campaigners would like to call me but someone with a conscience to protect the most vulnerable in our society who are the unborn that at 12 weeks have a heartbeat and so many humane features.

That’s just my thoughts on the matter and i will exercise my democratic right on may 25th by voting no. If the result is yes i will accept the result however if the result is no I fear the backlash.

Basically what you are saying is this.

You want to tell women that they can't have an abortion in Ireland, and you are not responsible if they have it in a different country, get sick because of it and are not able to ask for anyone's help in Ireland. That states to me that you are an uncaring fool.

Why should you have this power over someone else's mind and body.

Hammer Archer · 29-04-2018 03:38PM

Killester1 wrote: »

I totally understand that. But why does abortion have to be the only solution to an unwanted/unplanned pregnancy. We need to work together on solutions. Having respect to life for both mother and the unborn is a start. .....

It's not the only solution. It's an option. Or at least it should be in this country.

One thing I've noticed from the no side is that they're all about working on "solutions" but have never actually put forward any themselves.

Poyndexter · 29-04-2018 03:40PM

bubblypop wrote: »

The 8th amendment is more important than just abortion. Repelling it is very important for women's health.
Do all the lobbying & marching you want after, you can have a say in legislation

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

AtomicHorror · 29-04-2018 03:43PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

The point is that you can lobby for change to the legislation, as is the case for all legislation.

Killester1 · 29-04-2018 03:47PM

Hammer Archer wrote: »

It's not the only solution. It's an option. Or at least it should be in this country.

One thing I've noticed from the no side is that they're all about working on "solutions" but have never actually put forward any themselves.

What options do the YES side have to offer?

Poyndexter · 29-04-2018 03:48PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

So maybe you can understand now why people aren’t tolerating No voters.
The No voters don’t care about these women or these families, and see them as collateral damage, a worthy sacrifice to keep Ireland ‘abortion free’.

Incorrect. I do care about women and i also care about the unborn.

I really wish people would read my post instead of seeing a post from a no voter and the angry mob jumping on top of them. How dare they express a different opinion.

And as for the poster calling me a fool would you get a life and cop on.

Regarding cases of ffa, rape and danger of life to mother I agree abortion should be legalised in those cases but it’s the unlimited up to 12 weeks that goes too far for me and why I’m voting no.

Water John · 29-04-2018 03:51PM

But you are not being asked to vote on the 12 weeks. So you'll vote NO and those cases, you mention yourself as needing the option of abortion, your sacrafycing up as , collateral damage.

It wasnt me123 · 29-04-2018 03:51PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

Nobody is twisting any argument - there are two things you keep discussing and bringing under the 8th amendment argument.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment.

Legislation will then come into play. You don't like the legislation then you vote for the TD who reflects what you want. The plan is 12 weeks but its not been passed as yet - lobby your TD to get it changed - that's democracy.

My body autonomy should never be held to ransom in the Constitution.

pitifulgod · 29-04-2018 03:52PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

Incorrect. I do care about women and i also care about the unborn.

I really wish people would read my post instead of seeing a post from a no voter and the angry mob jumping on top of them. How dare they express a different opinion.

And as for the poster calling me a fool would you get a life and cop on.

Regarding cases of ffa, rape and danger of life to mother I agree abortion should be legalised in those cases but it’s the unlimited up to 12 weeks that goes too far for me and why I’m voting no.

You are aware that abortions happen for Irish women regardless? In fact, limiting availability simply results in later abortions due to the need to travel.

reubenreuben · 29-04-2018 03:53PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

Incorrect. I do care about women and i also care about the unborn.

I really wish people would read my post instead of seeing a post from a no voter and the angry mob jumping on top of them. How dare they express a different opinion.

And as for the poster calling me a fool would you get a life and cop on.

Regarding cases of ffa, rape and danger of life to mother I agree abortion should be legalised in those cases but it’s the unlimited up to 12 weeks that goes too far for me and why I’m voting no.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment. See, you are a fool.

swampgas · 29-04-2018 03:53PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

I’m quite aware of the wording of the referendum thanks very much but we all know that the legislation will before unlimited abortion up to twelve weeks. Stop trying to twist the argument.

So you disagree with the recommendations of the Citizen's Assembly and the Oireachtas Committee on the 8th Amendment, both of which agreed with abortion on request up to 12 weeks?

Do you also agree with keeping the 12th and 13th amendments, you know the ones that guarantee the right to information on abortion and the right to travel for an abortion?

Because as long as the 12th and 13th amendments are there as well, removing the 8th won't make much of a difference to elective abortions, it will just relocate them. It will make a huge difference to medical care, FFA cases, and so on.

As such, I can't see how the 12 week limit is important in this debate. For one thing, although it is what is proposed for subsequent legislation, it is not part of the 8th amendment itself. For another, I imagine that the abortions you are opposed to (guessing: healthy woman pregnant, no medical issues) are going to happen anyway as long as those women have the means to travel.

So what impact is is voting No going to have on Irish women, if the No vote wins? Is it going to stop abortions? No. Is it going to continue to put Irish women's lives at risk? Yes.

Is there some other principle that you believe is important here, that I'm not getting?

Are you religious? Is that why you want to vote No?

Is it because you think some women will "abuse" abortion being available?

I'm genuinely curious.

Poyndexter · 29-04-2018 03:55PM

It wasnt me123 wrote: »

Nobody is twisting any argument - there are two things you keep discussing and bringing under the 8th amendment argument.

The referendum is about repealing the 8th amendment.

Legislation will then come into play. You don't like the legislation then you vote for the TD who reflects what you want. The plan is 12 weeks but its not been passed as yet - lobby your TD to get it changed - that's democracy.

My body autonomy should never be held to ransom in the Constitution.

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

pleas advice · 29-04-2018 03:57PM

Water John wrote: »

But you are not being asked to vote on the 12 weeks..

We pretty much are though. But some people would deny that the referendum has anything to do with abortion at all
And deny that abortion is the killing of a living entity
And deny the level of abortion in countries that have legalised it,
And deny the realities of the methods of abortion that will be available

Water John · 29-04-2018 03:58PM

Politicians are, the same as the rest of us. Their views change over time. Many who supported the 8th in 1983, will now be voting for it to be repealed, incl me.

pleas advice, 12 weeks is being suggested. It may not pass in the Dail, though.

swampgas · 29-04-2018 04:01PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

To be frank, this is a red herring that we are seeing over and over. You don't have to "trust" politicians, instead you get to choose which ones to elect.

I get the impression you were disappointed that some politicians came out as pro-choice. You can always vote for someone else.

Are you annoyed that the majority of TDs seem to disagree with you? In which case, that's just bad luck. You need to get better at persuading people to agree with your position.

Or perhaps you need to rethink your own position instead.

It wasnt me123 · 29-04-2018 04:02PM

Poyndexter wrote: »

You expect me to trust politicians in this country? We’ve already seen the likes of Leo varadkar, simon coveney, micheal martin flip flop on this issue and pander to what is populist thinking based on what their dozens of advisors have told them would enhance their image with a general election on the horizon.

As has already been said in this thread, fairly recently actually.

You trust politicians to legislate for everything from working conditions, teaching, hospitals, road laws, benefits, travel rules, etc etc, everything.

Why will this legislation be such a problem. I personally like a politician that can change, can inform themselves on a matter and change their mind if their opinion has changed. That person has the strength of their conviction and just doesn't stick their head in the mud and pretend society hasn't changed.

If I was being facetious I would say "its not compulsory" you know, but I just don't get it. What a perfect stranger does with their body has absolutely nothing to do with you, or me or anyone else. Its none of our business.

Poyndexter · 29-04-2018 04:04PM

swampgas wrote: »

As such, I can't see how the 12 week limit is important in this debate. For one thing, although it is what is proposed for subsequent legislation, it is not part of the 8th amendment itself. For another, I imagine that the abortions you are opposed to (guessing: healthy woman pregnant, no medical issues) are going to happen anyway as long as those women have the means to travel.

So what impact is is voting No going to have on Irish women, if the No vote wins? Is it going to stop abortions? No. Is it going to continue to put Irish women's lives at risk? Yes.

Is there some other principle that you believe is important here, that I'm not getting?

Are you religious? Is that why you want to vote No?

Is it because you think some women will "abuse" abortion being available?

I'm genuinely curious.

Of course the proposed 12 week legislation is important in this debate and yes I disagree fully with a random 100 people that makes up the citizens assembly.

Yes the main issue I have are healthy women opting to have an abortion simply because they don’t want a child. If brought in here there is a far higher case of women making rash decisions jist like the many cases I have heard from women who deeply regret have an abortion or the near misses like the lady who spoke on the late late the other night. What we need is further support for women who find themselves in this situation. There are also options of putting your child up for adoption if they felt they couldn’t cope with raising a child for whatever reason.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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