The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

27-04-2018 05:59PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

Sorry bad choice of words.

From the doc I quoted

The Amendment clearly supports standard obstetric practice of insisting on the use of all medically necessary treatments to protect the life of the mother even if this unintentionally compromises the life of the unborn child- while as far as is practicable making every effort to protect the life of that child.
The 8th amendment does not compromise the care of expectant mothers. Ireland remains one of the safest places in the world to have a child.
Those politicians and doctors who have declared themselves publicly in favour of repeal, view "the 8th" as the single biggest obstacle, not only to selective abortion for unborn children who are terminally ill, but also to the wider availability of abortion as a means of fertility control. This is precisely what the eighth amendment of the constitution was intended to do. Retention of the Eighth would mean that the current brake on abortion provision in this country would continue. Removal of the Amendment would remove the brake. If this is what we want.

Ireland being the safest/best place to have a child has actually been debated in the thread and found to not really measure up, even leaving aside the 8th, care provided by the NHS has been shown to be better than that provided by the HSE, despite some pro life posters trying to claim otherwise because abortion is legal in the U.K. so this is the NHS default answer to any issue related to pregnancy.

Bringing back in the 8th, women have died and been denied treatment simply because they are pregnant.

Martina1991 · 27-04-2018 06:01PM

patrickSTARR wrote:

I donâ€™t agree that healthy unplanned pregnancies should be aborted.

This element makes me feel uncomfortable as well. But the 8th amendment hasn't stopped women seeking abortion in these circumstances. These women have gone abroad or bought illegal pills online without medical supervision.

patrickSTARR wrote:

But on the other hand, I do think the 8th as it is wrong. I read so many stories about women who have had horrible experiences and I agree that a change is needed, but I don't want to change the current laws to the point that healthy foetus can be aborted .

Voting No:
. Nothing changes.
. Women will still seek abortions abroad illegally and at later stages in pregnancy
. Maternity care for all women put at risk.

Voting Yes:
. women who still seek abortions have them in a safe environment at the earliest possible stage with support.
. Maternity care is not hindered and intervened only when the woman is close to death.

27-04-2018 06:04PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Try

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/oireachtasbusiness/committees_list/eighthamendmentoftheconstitution/

Or

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-will-seek-to-ban-late-term-abortions-1.3440056

Aharddecision · 27-04-2018 06:06PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

Ireland being the safest/best place to have a child has actually been debated in the thread and found to not really measure up, even leaving aside the 8th, care provided by the NHS has been shown to be better than that provided by the HSE, despite some pro life posters trying to claim otherwise because abortion is legal in the U.K. so this is the NHS default answer to any issue related to pregnancy.

Bringing back in the 8th, women have died and been denied treatment simply because they are pregnant.

I haven't read the whole thread but it is very informative!

Zubeneschamali · 27-04-2018 06:07PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

I'd welcome any feedback if you have any.

Ok. This isn't hard at all. I voted against the 8th in 1983 because it was insane, and I'll vote against it again.

Might even win this time.

Zubeneschamali · 27-04-2018 06:16PM

Aharddecision wrote: »

My problem is I feel uninformed as to what will actually happen after we vote yes.

Jazz music. No, wrong thread, abortion.

Abortion will happen here legally, instead of happening in England legally or here illegally.

Ave Sodalis · 27-04-2018 06:19PM

Did anyone hear what Cora Sherlock was saying earlier? It was on I-Radio so I'm not sure where she said it, but she was talking about how abortion up to 12 weeks is actually worse than what they have in the UK....

patrickSTARR · 27-04-2018 06:21PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

This element makes me feel uncomfortable as well. But the 8th amendment hasn't stopped women seeking abortion in these circumstances. These women have gone abroad or bought illegal pills online without medical supervision.

Voting No:
. Nothing changes.
. Women will still seek abortions abroad illegally and at later stages in pregnancy
. Maternity care for all women put at risk.

Voting Yes:
. women who still seek abortions have them in a safe environment at the earliest possible stage with support.
. Maternity care is not hindered and intervened only when the woman is close to death.

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

Bannasidhe · 27-04-2018 06:27PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

It's really quite simple imho.

As long as the 8th is there ALL women, regardless of their circumstances, are subjected to it when pregnant.

It turns a crises into a nightmare scenario but doesn't actually prevent 'a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus' - as long as she can afford to travel.

Also - do you seriously believe a woman who has a baby only because she couldn't afford to travel is the model of parenting we should be advocating?

Sofiztikated · 27-04-2018 06:29PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

Define healthy.

27-04-2018 06:30PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned.

Just because its available in England doesn't mean it should be here in my view.

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

But our constitution gives rights to women for information on abortion & the right to travel for one. So basically, our constitution only protects the unborn if you cannot travel.
Abortion happens anyway, it's a constitutional right, it just happens in a different country.

pjohnson · 27-04-2018 06:31PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Did anyone hear what Cora Sherlock was saying earlier? It was on I-Radio so I'm not sure where she said it, but she was talking about how abortion up to 12 weeks is actually worse than what they have in the UK....

I like hearing her. She always provides comedy with her ramblings. Never seems to complete an interview without either completely flip-flopping form where she started or uttering something mind-numbingly stupid.

patrickSTARR · 27-04-2018 06:36PM

Bannasidhe wrote: »

It's really quite simple imho.

As long as the 8th is there ALL women, regardless of their circumstances, are subjected to it when pregnant.

It turns a crises into a nightmare scenario but doesn't actually prevent 'a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus' - as long as she can afford to travel.

Also - do you seriously believe a woman who has a baby only because she couldn't afford to travel is the model of parenting we should be advocating?

Just because someone can afford to travel to get it done else where doenst mean I can advocate abortions being legal for healthy mothers and babies here. I cant advocate it here

I wouldn't be advocating them as models of parenting, not at all, but the child deserves a chance to live regardless of how good a mother it may have is.

But that's just one side of my thought process on where my vote lies. Women do need urgent care when in dangerous pregnancies. Its about me deciding which is the greater good. Ive a month to get off the fence. I still feel whichever way I vote, someone suffers.

joe40 · 27-04-2018 06:39PM

I'm not sure the option to travel can be taken for granted in the future. I haven't heard anyone talking about this, but surely with brexit looming, the idea of the NHS continuing to provide abortion for Irish women may not continue.

Martina1991 · 27-04-2018 06:40PM

patrickSTARR wrote:

I agree to a point on what you said about voting yes. I believe a yes voting will normalise abortion to the point it will be more freely available and more people will opt to abort if available if its unplanned. .

[ b]Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned [/b]. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

I think anti choice people are afraid every unplanned pregnancy will result in abortion. That is ridiculous.

The process of abortion is painful, stressful, traumatic and shameful. (I'm going by the stories of women who have actually had one).

No woman would walk into an abortion clinic simply because its down the road. It could never be a decision made lightly.

You're main argument for voting no is these hypothetical women. Women you don't know. Women you will never know. Their decisions have no effect on your life whatsoever. These women who can afford to travel could still have abortions thanks to the 13th amendment. Voting No doesn't stop it.

Smertrius · 27-04-2018 06:44PM

i am saying nobody should be forced go to another country to have an abortion and its their freewill to have an abortion

Bannasidhe · 27-04-2018 06:45PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Just because someone can afford to travel to get it done else where doenst mean I can advocate abortions being legal for healthy mothers and babies here. I cant advocate it here

I wouldn't be advocating them as models of parenting, not at all, but the child deserves a chance to live regardless of how good a mother it may have is.

But that's just one side of my thought process on where my vote lies. Women do need urgent care when in dangerous pregnancies. Its about me deciding which is the greater good. Ive a month to get off the fence. I still feel whichever way I vote, someone suffers.

Respectfully, I would counter that your first point is pure NIMBYism which penalises those who cannot afford to travel or due to their status in Ireland - e.g in Direct Provision - cannot legally travel. It's how we ended up with a rape victim being force-fed.

as for "I wouldn't be advocating them as models of parenting, not at all, but the child deserves a chance to live regardless of how good a mother it may have is." - I just can't even...! I doubt you want a situation where children are neglected, abused, made to feel unwanted and unloved but that is what you are saying you prefer...

Women cannot get that urgent care until their life is in serious danger. This will continue as long as the 8th is there. Where is the "greater good" in that? Women will continue to be collateral damage.

Larbre34 · 27-04-2018 06:48PM

joe40 wrote: »

I'm not sure the option to travel can be taken for granted in the future. I haven't heard anyone talking about this, but surely with brexit looming, the idea of the NHS continuing to provide abortion for Irish women may not continue.

Its not an NHS service. People go privately to places like Marie Stopes and pay.

To avail of the NHS you need to be a UK resident and paying social insurance or an EU citizen seeking emergency treatment (i.e. not abortion) on an E111

patrickSTARR · 27-04-2018 06:48PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

You're main argument for voting no is these hypothetical women. Women you don't know. Women you will never know. Their decisions have no effect on your life whatsoever. These women who can afford to travel could still have abortions thanks to the 13th amendment. Voting No doesn't stop it.

Firstly its not an argument, its my thought process. Im still undecided. Just because I don't or do know these women, those lives are still lost. I don't think every unplanned pregnancy will result in an abortion if the 8th is repealed, but with it being more easily available it will become a more normalised option.

I know 2 women who have had abortions (that I know of) of healthy babies, both regret it and suffer years later.

On the flip side I know people who suffered from the 8th during pregnancies and suffer years later too.

Im happy with how Im making my decision in the run up to this vote, I will do my best to make the right choice.

circular flexing · 27-04-2018 06:50PM

Ave Sodalis wrote: »

Did anyone hear what Cora Sherlock was saying earlier? It was on I-Radio so I'm not sure where she said it, but she was talking about how abortion up to 12 weeks is actually worse than what they have in the UK....

She might be right, I haven't looked too much into it though. Wikipedia says

In England and Wales and Scotland, section 1(1) of the Abortion Act 1967 now reads:[1]
Subject to the provisions of this section, a person shall not be guilty of an offence under the law relating to abortion when a pregnancy is terminated by a registered medical practitioner if two registered medical practitioners are of the opinion, formed in good faith -
(a) that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or(b) that the termination of the pregnancy is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or(c) that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated(d) that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped.

so it seems you have to give a reason for abortion in the UK whereas I think the proposed legislation here means no reason required up to 12 weeks.

To me the difference is of no importance anyway.

reubenreuben · 27-04-2018 06:51PM

Why is it always england, england, england when some are referring to abortion statistics/comparisons.

Its not the only country that has legal abortions you know.

27-04-2018 06:56PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Firstly its not an argument, its my thought process. Im still undecided. Just because I don't or do know these women, those lives are still lost. I don't think every unplanned pregnancy will result in an abortion if the 8th is repealed, but with it being more easily available it will become a more normalised option.

I know 2 women who have had abortions (that I know of) of healthy babies, both regret it and suffer years later.

On the flip side I know people who suffered from the 8th during pregnancies and suffer years later too.

Im happy with how Im making my decision in the run up to this vote, I will do my best to make the right choice.

I know 2 close friends who had abortions, both of whom were mothers already. I travelled with one while her husband stayed home & mind the kids. Neither of them regret it, & would do exactly the same again.
Women can have abortions now, as protected in our constitution,they just have to go overseas

erica74 · 27-04-2018 06:58PM

The antichoice posters are blowing my mind:pac:

New one in Waterford this evening
"They said to cherish all the children equally, vote no" and in the background is the Irish flag and some 1916 leaders

:pac:

patrickSTARR · 27-04-2018 06:59PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I know 2 close friends who had abortions, both of whom were mothers already. I travelled with one while her husband stayed home & mind the kids. Neither of them regret it, & would do exactly the same again.
Women can have abortions now, as protected in our constitution,they just have to go overseas

Im sure there are some who don't regret it, everyones different. Do you mind me asking the reasons for why they wanted to have abortions?

Its my view that abortions are just wrong if the baby and mother are in good health.

robarmstrong · 27-04-2018 07:00PM

reubenreuben wrote: »

Why is it always england, england, england when some are referring to abortion statistics/comparisons.

Its not the only country that has legal abortions you know.

Yano I've no idea to be honest. I'm just assuming it's because where most of our women go to seek abortions, maybe that's why?

BabysCoffee · 27-04-2018 07:06PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Im sure there are some who don't regret it, everyones different. Do you mind me asking the reasons for why they wanted to have abortions?

Its my view that abortions are just wrong if the baby and mother are in good health.

How does it affect you (taking in to account you think abortion is wrong) if a woman has an abortion?

27-04-2018 07:08PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Im sure there are some who don't regret it, everyones different. Do you mind me asking the reasons for why they wanted to have abortions?

Its my view that abortions are just wrong if the baby and mother are in good health.

Well, one case her & her husband lost their jobs in construction. They had 3 children already & just couldn't bring Another child into the family, without the love ones suffering. One has special needs. They have since lost their house.
The other one had a teenage son, had an extremely hard time bringing him up, suffers from depression, & if I'm honest, probably is an alcoholic. I think she made the right choice for her & whatever baby may have come along. Her son had a very hard upbringing. Very hard.

Smertrius · 27-04-2018 07:18PM

if they say its illegal abortion in a country, the country should pay the woman if she wants abortion to have it done. No woman should have suffer it her body and her right to have abortion

erica74 · 27-04-2018 07:24PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Im sure there are some who don't regret it, everyones different. Do you mind me asking the reasons for why they wanted to have abortions?

Its my view that abortions are just wrong if the baby and mother are in good health.

What difference does it make to you personally whether any woman anywhere has an abortion?

kylith · 27-04-2018 07:24PM

patrickSTARR wrote: »

Its a healthy mother aborting a healthy foetus that I have a problem with just because with unplanned. I cant back that, however I do agree those who have serious health issues in pregnancy need the 8th repealed.

For me its a tough decision.

The thing about a healthy woman aborting a healthy pregnancy is that you shouldn’t let that blind you to the rest of her life.

She may be healthy, but she could have no money and not be able to afford to raise a child. She may be raising 3 children by herself and can’t cope with a 4th. She may have to drop out of college and thus lose any chance is a good career. She may have been raped and does not want to have her rapist’s child.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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