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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #8972
    stockdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    I'll bite, what have you been through, and what was the difficult decision you had to face?

    Generally a decision is based off of a selection of options, i.e a choice.

    That's personal and nothing to do with you.


  • #8973
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    stockdam wrote: »
    So if you don't believe that something is right then your only solution appears to to be to use force to stop it? Nobody is pretending that it is easy to "solve".

    Ok since I'm the one getting all the questions then let's start to balance it up.

    Do I have the right to hold a belief that the child and father have rights? If so then do I have right to vote whichever way I feel is right? Does that lead to me agreeing that a woman should be put into jail?

    Yes, yes and yes.

    Your vote is effectively only for a principle (because you do not care that it is enforced and is happening anyway) that consequently causes harm and suffering to pregnant women.


  • #8974
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    stockdam wrote: »
    That's personal and nothing to do with you.

    Right so let me get this straight.

    You've come on ranting and raving, have asked ridiculous questions and made outright strange assumptions, you make a statement about something you've been through, and a difficult decision you had to make yet you don't want to share it at all despite it more than likely being relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Yep, seen this before.


  • #8975
    stockdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    Wrongway1985 wrote: »
    Nobody is suggesting terminations are in any way right, unfortunately they may be necessary and they occur anyway, the 8th restricts these women whose lives may be at risk, if you think about the living breathing women in your life, would you actually believe the rights of a recently fused egg and sperm are to be of an equal footing?

    No I don't. I said the fetus does have rights. It cannot just be because the mother doesn't want the child. I also said that the father also has a right to be able to bring up a child.

    I also said that it becomes a difficult debate unless you remove all rights other than the mothers.


  • #8976
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    A fetus doesn't have rights, it has one right. Singular, not plural.


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  • #8977
    stockdam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭stockdam


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Yes, yes and yes.

    Your vote is effectively only for a principle (because you do not care that it is enforced and is happening anyway) that consequently causes harm and suffering to pregnant women.

    The third yes is your view and not mine.


  • #8978
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    tunguska wrote: »
    I went to a discussion on the 8th ammendment at the weekend. Myself and another person where the only ones there who were planning on voting Yes, the rest were all voting No. Without exception these people were open, patient and kind. They listened to what I had to say, they didnt try and convince me I was wrong, they didnt try to shout me down. They didnt try and cloud my views with lies, and most of all, they werent concerned in any way with taking away anyones choice. They were concerned with life, thats all. There was no conspiracy to control anyone in anyway. I learned a lot by listening to them and not being so attached to my own views. So you just dont know what you might learn by being open, not being so attached to your own views and letting go of antagonism.

    What kind of discussion did you go to? I'm thinking it was one hosted by the anti choice side? Like I haven't heard of any that are not facilitated by one side. Or the other.

    Anyway. So they are concerned with life. Please share your learnings. Did you learn why it feels like they only care about the life of the unborn? And care nothing about the actual living woman?

    So I'm pro life. I'm.assuming you are too? Who isn't actually?
    And I'm also pro choice.
    I wonder could the anti choicers learn from that?

    Do you think they learnt anything from you at this strange and unique little discussion where you and your friend were the only two yes voters with all those no voters / anti choicers?


  • #8979
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    stockdam wrote: »
    Ok so go on.........you then came to a "logical conclusion" which is your belief and not mine. You are now mixing up what I said and your conclusion of what you believe that it means. What's your point?

    It's not a belief.

    You claim abortion is termination of life. Abortion is illegal ergo abortion is an unlawful termination of life. The unlawful termination of life is murder. Murder means jail time, and I don't think many people would disagree with sending a murderer to jail. People would also not be allowing people to go overseas to murder.

    None of this is a belief. And yet, if you believe abortion is murder (which is what an unlawful termination of life is. There's no ifs, buts, or maybes about it), then it stands to reason that you believe women should be jailed for murder. This is not a strawman. None of this is a strawman. It is taking what you said and applying the exact same logic to a different situation, and getting different outcomes. It's getting you and other pro-life supporters to see where they logical fallacy is.


  • #8980
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,488 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    stockdam wrote: »
    No I don't. I said the fetus does have rights. It cannot just be because the mother doesn't want the child. I also said that the father also has a right to be able to bring up a child.

    I also said that it becomes a difficult debate unless you remove all rights other than the mothers.

    You don't seem to get it...if the mother doesn't want the child if she has the means/money she can seek abortion in the U.K. or if not the means (poor most likely) and forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy or possibly criminal charges from buying pills online or other methods. People want their troubled relatives to not have to go underground and be ignored by their own country in times of crisis.

    People are not advocating repeal as a means of contraception which is what you seem to suggest.

    Fathers role in a childs life is nothing to do with the 8th amendment.


  • #8981
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I'm just thinking about those new No posters. It says in it's justification (not on the posters obviously, that's far too limiting for the public to see) that the 6 months they're referring to is under mental health ground. It was pointed out earlier in the thread that that's what's happening now anyway. However, just to add to that, I had a look at the statute and there isn't actually a time limit on the current Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act. So the proposed legislation is actually more restricted and conservative in that regard than what's currently in place.


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  • #8982
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    That poll you're referring to has 47% support for Yes, 28% for No. Red C reported 56% for Yes, 26% for No last month, that's what has me worried about a "Shy No" rearing its head when the votes are counted.

    I respect your view but I would think there would be just as many shy yes voters out there - this topic has touched most families in the State - the neighbours just don't know about it and so they would be reluctant be seen to support Repeal.

    I actually still think it will be 70 / 30 for Repeal, I think those don't knows could be split between both camps and that will see Repeal win.

    I'm not complacent, niave or any other adjective that I have been described here as - I'm a woman who is of an age that I have never been able to vote on this subject - and there are alot of us - and anyone with a shred of compassion will be voting repeal.


  • #8983
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    circular flexing wrote: »
    None of the no side material has been fact checked - they are completely making stuff up. I hope people are waking up to this more and more.

    Its gas. There is a save the 8th leaflet that quotes the Irish Times as a source. The source it refers back to is a newspaper article reporting the claim..

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8984
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    tunguska wrote: »
    Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive. Ive since come across a number of "No" posters that had been defaced or damaged. I have yet to come across one "Vote Yes" poster that had been interfered with. There seems to be an under current of aggression to this whole thing, coming from only one side I might add. Its the side that thinks its right and has the higher moral ground. But all this shows is that when someone doesnt agree with the majority view they are set upon. Respect peoples views please. Even if you dont agree with the other person respect their right to have a different outlook than you.
    I'll be voting yes, but I still think that some folks on the Yes side of things need to grow up and stop being so aggressive. I noticed the same thing around the time of the Marriage referendum not so long ago. Like a liberal mafia going after anyone who dare to vote a different way to them. Have a civilised debate and be open minded, if you put aside your own anger you might actually learn something from someone who doesnt agree with you.

    A lot of yes posters have been robbed or stickers put over them. Absolute drivel to say only no the campaign is the victim of dirty tactics.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #8985
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    tunguska wrote: »
    Me and a friend were leaving a restaurant sunday afternoon when we come upon a "Vote No" poster which someone had taken the liberty to write upon in black marker. What that person wrote seemed pretty ignorant and aggressive.

    What's on most No posters is pretty ignorant and aggressive to begin with, so how could you tell the difference?


  • #8986
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    To be fair...You see a poster defaced, you're not going to Google to see what the score sheet is. Doesn't mean you don't care, just commenting on what you witnessed.

    Well, I agree. I just assume there’s been some defacing on both sides. I’m just suspicious when people only focus on the misdeeds of one side.


  • #8987
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    A lot of yes posters have been robbed or stickers put over them. Absolute drivel to say only no the campaign is the victim of dirty tactics.

    Whoaaaaaaaaaa

    The aggression there. Ouch











    Lol
    Jk
    Playing the victim is fun :)


  • #8988
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    BabysCoffee wrote: »
    What did you learn?

    Why dont you go and talk to some people from the No side, find out what you might learn yourself. Like actually listen to them instead of trying to win an argument.


  • #8989
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    tunguska wrote: »
    Why dont you go and talk to some people from the No side, find out what you might learn yourself. Like actually listen to them instead of trying to win an argument.

    Why not just share with us here? You said you learnt stuff, now back it up and give us an idea of what you learned?


    Ps. What kind of discussion meeting were you even at???


  • #8990
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    tunguska wrote: »
    Why dont you go and talk to some people from the No side, find out what you might learn yourself. Like actually listen to them instead of trying to win an argument.

    We learn plenty from the spokespeople, like McGuire and Sherlock and Quinn. None of it is good.


  • #8991
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    What's on most No posters is pretty ignorant and aggressive to begin with, so how could you tell the difference?

    If youre defacing a poster it means youre a coward who hasnt got the courage to go talk to someone face to face.


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  • #8992
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    tunguska wrote: »
    Why dont you go and talk to some people from the No side, find out what you might learn yourself. Like actually listen to them instead of trying to win an argument.

    No sorry, I'd really like to know what you have learned. You came on here to tell us you'd really learned something, so it would actually be really cool if you could share what you have learned. Because I might go and learn something but it might not be the same something, so I'd very specifically like to know what you have learned. It must have been something notable for you to have come on and told us that it had happened, so please share it.


  • #8993
    BabysCoffee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭BabysCoffee


    tunguska wrote: »
    Why dont you go and talk to some people from the No side, find out what you might learn yourself. Like actually listen to them instead of trying to win an argument.

    I'm open to listening to you. I want to hear what you learnt.

    But now you are shutting me down. Sob sob....

    I guess I need to find some nice No voters who can talk to me and I can listen and learn.


  • #8994
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    We learn plenty from the spokespeople, like McGuire and Sherlock and Quinn. None of it is good.

    Talk to a regular person not a self appointed figure head.


  • #8995
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    I would also be open to hearing a new perspective on the pro-life side, and would be interested in what they have to say.


  • #8996
    tunguska
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    BabysCoffee wrote: »
    I'm open to listening to you. I want to hear what you learnt.

    But now you are shutting me down. Sob sob....

    I guess I need to find some nice No voters who can talk to me and I can listen and learn.

    But thats the thing, youre not prepared to listen. If you were you wouldnt be asking me you'd make up your own mind and find out for yourself.


  • #8997
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    tunguska wrote: »
    But thats the thing, youre not prepared to listen. If you were you wouldnt be asking me you'd make up your own mind and find out for yourself.

    We are prepared to listen, you just don't seem prepared to tell us? :confused::confused::confused:


  • #8998
    BabysCoffee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,713 ✭✭✭BabysCoffee


    tunguska wrote: »
    But thats the thing, youre not prepared to listen. If you were you wouldnt be asking me you'd make up your own mind and find out for yourself.

    I'm listening.

    What did you learn?


  • #8999
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    tunguska wrote: »
    If youre defacing a poster it means youre a coward who hasnt got the courage to go talk to someone face to face.

    Not really. When I was grieving a miscarriage the sight of many of those posters would have destroyed me. I wouldn't have been able to cope with seeing them. I genuinely don't know if I would have been able to leave the house for the two months we can expect to keep seeing them. I certainly wouldn't have been safe to drive. That's not hyperbole, my mental health was way too fragile to have coped with them. And that's not an unusual reaction either. I know of a lot of women who are not managing very well at all right now because of those posters. The temptation, for their loved ones, to just get rid of them must be overwhelming. It's a horrible, horrible abusive tactic and they know it because women have been explaining for years about the hurt that imagery causes to bereaved families and begging them to stop.


  • #9000
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    tunguska wrote: »
    But thats the thing, youre not prepared to listen. If you were you wouldnt be asking me you'd make up your own mind and find out for yourself.

    Are we at least allowed to know the general theme of it? Or where to find the level headed No arguments?


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  • #9001
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    tunguska wrote: »
    But thats the thing, youre not prepared to listen. If you were you wouldnt be asking me you'd make up your own mind and find out for yourself.

    I'm another person prepared to listen.

    In what world does asking someone means the opposite (I.e. that you're not interested)

    Come on just tell us. It's been built up to something amazing now


This discussion has been closed.
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