Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Delirium wrote: »

You answer to terminating a pregnancy is to carry it to term???

yes that's right.
because in my view unless there is a genuine medical reason she should not be allowed to terminate the pregnancy as the unborn have a right to life as well.

smokingman wrote: »

He probably has another option where she dies because women don't really matter amirite?

no this is not correct. her dying is not an option and if you read back through the thread i have made that clear. of course women matter but the unborn also matter. both matter to me as that is what being pro-life is about

SusieBlue wrote: »

What other options are there for a woman experiencing a crisis pregnancy, besides ‘working more hours’ and ‘contacting a charity’?

look to see if she is entitled to anything from wellfare. either way, there is no excuse for having an abortion when both mother and baby are healthy.

end of the road wrote: »

look to see if she is entitled to anything from wellfare. either way, there is no excuse for having an abortion when both mother and baby are healthy.

She already has a couple of kids and is already claiming all the welfare she entitled to.
Then what?

Did you even think this through? Not very helpful advice from yourself tbh.

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not her body, not her choice as there are 2 bodies.

Delirium wrote: »

you do realise where the foetus is located during pregnancy?

i do. however i do believe there are 2 bodies, the mother and the unborn. that is why the her body her choice slogan isn't a valid argument in my view.

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the same doesn't hold true for a fetus, as it's a very different situation. the fetus does not compromise the bodily autonomy of the woman in which it resides in the vast majority of cases. where it does such as a genuine medical reason, abortion can be performed in ireland.
the fetus does not have a special status, it only has it's right to life upheld as much as is practical to do so.

end of the road wrote: »

the same doesn't hold true for a fetus, as it's a very different situation. the fetus does not compromise the bodily autonomy of the woman in which it resides in the vast majority of cases. where it does such as a genuine medical reason, abortion can be performed in ireland.
the fetus does not have a special status, it only has it's right to life upheld as much as is practical to do so.

You keep saying abortions are available for "genuine medical reasons" but this is untrue. An abortion is only available in Ireland if there's a risk to the woman's life. Risks to her health don't count, even if they will result in long term physical or mental impairment. If you'd ever spent any time in a medical setting, you'd know there's more to medicine than simply keeping people alive; it's about giving them quality of life as well. And this is something that the 8th won't allow. It only has regard for a woman's life, not her health or wellbeing.

So no, abortions cannot be carried out when there is a genuine medical reason; they can only be carried out in life-threatening situations.

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a fetus is not a parasitical presence. it's not on the list of recognised parasites. if she doesn't want it within her body then that is unfortunate but she should not be allowed to have it removed. unless there is a genuine medical reason why it needs to be removed. a fetus does not have any special status, it just has a basic right to life thanks to the constitution. even then that right to life is only upheld as much as it is practical to do so. it must continue to have that right as it is a human being and the only difference between it and a born human being is the stage of development it is at.

end of the road wrote: »

if she doesn't want it within her body then that is unfortunate but she should not be allowed to have it removed.

Why shouldn't she? Because you said so?

You haven't made very good points on any of this discussion. In fact across the other thread, when I detailed how my partner will miscarry constantly yet doesn't fall into the legal requirements here, you thanked a poster dictating to me that I should get a vasectomy, rather than seek a legal abortion. What if I don't want the vasectomy, are you going to force me to sit through one?

The very fact that pro-life individuals would much prefer me to "take responsibility of birth control" by having a vasectomy rather than allowing my partner (who has genuine uterine abnormalities which causes a lot of our pregnancies to be miscarried) access to a legal abortion speaks waves about the mentality and mindsets of those voting no.

end of the road wrote: »

no, it's because it is a human being, which is developing, and we don't allow the killing of human beings except in extreme circumstances.



i have made a large number of fantastic points in relation to this discussion. as have many on the pro-life side. the poster suggested that a vasectomy could be an option for you, not that you had to have it.




it is the government who is preventing your partner from accessing abortion in ireland, via not at least trying to legislate for such cases within the 2013 act. they will continue to prevent your partner from accessing abortion in ireland, if there is a no vote, because of it's proposals for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, which isn't required to address your partner's case, which should be a medical case. the government had an opportunity to propose legislation for hard cases only, including your partner's case, but chose to go for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, which removed support for a repeal vote.

I've switched from desktop to phone so apologies for only addressing one aspect of your post, I'll address the rest when I'm back at a desktop providing you can wait.

Do you honestly think that me having a vasectomy is a reasonable scenario there seeing as I intentionally left out that we're trying for a baby? As an adult, do you think me having a vasectomy is a genuine option to prevent my partner miscarrying and that it should be my responsibility to look after this aspect?

robarmstrong wrote: »

I've switched from desktop to phone so apologies for only addressing one aspect of your post, I'll address the rest when I'm back at a desktop providing you can wait.

Do you honestly think that me having a vasectomy is a reasonable scenario there seeing as I intentionally left out that we're trying for a baby? As an adult, do you think me having a vasectomy is a genuine option to prevent my partner miscarrying and that it should be my responsibility to look after this aspect?

well considering you are trying for a baby, then the answer would be that it's not an option currently. would it be an option that you should discard altogether long term, personally i'd say no, that it should remain 1 of a number of options.

robarmstrong wrote: »

Also - I don't care if it's "on demand", at the moment if it's all they're offering, I'll take it, I am not and I will not wait for another referendum to come around, if you vote no, you are denying God knows how many women like my partner (it's actually a lot more common than you would think, and off-topic, I highly suggest you read up on uterine abnormalities offhand just in case you and your partner/potential partner down the line are faced with this, it's an eye-opener) access to legal abortion here.

Voting "no" just because it doesn't suit your beliefs is essentially condemning these women to continually miscarry until they have a baby that implants in a safe position. I don't believe in abortion at all and to be honest it turns my stomach at the sheer thought of it, but I for one am not going to deny women like my partner be they few or many the access to a legal abortion denied to them already by the government and medical professionals and potentially further denied to them by no voters.

and if it wasn't for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, i'd be repealing as well. but the government have made their proposals and we can only vote the way we feel is right now.

end of the road wrote: »

and if it wasn't for abortion on demand up to 12 weeks, i'd be repealing as well. but the government have made their proposals and we can only vote the way we feel is right now.

I'm going to put it very simply.

Because the legislation doesn't suit you (and it's been disproven that it's "on demand" by the way), women like my partner will be directly denied access to legal abortions because they do not fit the FFA criteria.

By you voting no, you will be in essence, denying women with uterine abnormalities who have extremely high chances of pregnancies ending in miscarriage the dignity of having an abortion.

All because it doesn't suit you.

Nothing short of being pig-ignorant and narrow minded.

I too am against abortion, I'm voting to repeal regardless of the legislation because my partner has gone through god knows how many miscarriages, because there are thousands of women like her in this country that will be denied the dignity of a controlled, safe abortion and instead will be forced to carrying a doomed pregnancy until they eventually miscarry. I can't and won't deny these suffering women that dignity.

Have you ever spoken to any of these women? Do you know what it's like, carrying an otherwise healthy baby knowing full well it's only a matter of time until your body gives out on you and miscarries the baby? Having your waters break in public, in private, surrounded by everyone or surrounded by no one, with no direct access to medical care.

But instead voters like yourself will vote no because at the end of the day, it doesn't suit you.

Pretty chivalrous.

Noo wrote: »

If anyone cant understand the pro choice point of view then read the In Her Shoes page on facebook.


https://m.facebook.com/RepealTheEighth/
apologies if the link doesnt work, i think ive only added a mobile link from my phone.

It gives heartbreaking accounts of the HUGE number of different reasons why women have needed abortions. It is not black and white as many on here believe and reading these poor womens stories i cant help but get upset, not only at what they have to go through, but at the country who kicked them to the kerb during the most vulnerable time. It is pure shameful and a disgusting black mark on the social progession ireland has made.

i have read that facebook page. but i am still voting no, as i believe that if we hold out a bit longer, we can get a much much better abortion regime then what is proposed. we don't need abortion on demand to deal with the hard cases. had the government decided to deal with those cases only, and even better, decided that legislation could only be changed by referendum rather then simply at the whim of the politicians, i think there would be a lot bigger support for change and a lot of no votes would be yes votes for repeal.
i would have to disagree that it is not black and white, it mostly is . there are some cases where abortions are required and should be facilitated (FFA, mother's life under threat, permanent injury or disability) among other medical issues. then there are the cases where it is not required and we have no reason to facilitate it (economic reasons, a baby being inconvenient) would be a couple of examples.
i don't believe in most cases, the country kicked these women to the kerb. they wanted an abortion and went to england, that was their decisian. in some cases that was necessary due to medical reasons and i would agree we could and should have avoided that by dealing with the cases of medical necessity years ago in terms of legislation to allow abortions in those circumstances to be caried out here.
but i believe it's not one bit shameful or disgusting that we refuse to facilitate abortions for economic reasons among other non-medical examples and i don't believe it's any mark against our social progression, as abortion on demand for any reason is not progressive, it's regressive.