Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

uck51js9zml2yt · 16-04-2018 08:28PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

It was also Christians who started these things, what's your point?

Depends on your definition of Christian.

Timberrrrrrrr · 16-04-2018 08:47PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

Depends on your definition of Christian.

Is Noah Christian enough for you?

In the book of Genesis, Noah condemns Canaan (Son of Ham) to perpetual servitude: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers" (Gn 9:25).

Lantus · 16-04-2018 09:46PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

Is Noah Christian enough for you?

Before or after he slept with his daughter?

uck51js9zml2yt · 16-04-2018 09:51PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Is Noah Christian enough for you?

He was neither Jewish nor Christian.
Have you a point to make or are you just after a cheap score?

16-04-2018 09:52PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

Did you know there are recorded instances in the Bible of God changing His mind. In other words his opinion in something.
He has desires for us , ways in which He wants us to live. Most of the time we disagree and live as we want.
We disregard His opinions.

If we stood back and left the world to carry on as it's going, we'd enter a period of chaos and moral degradation ( even more than we have now)
We can see in the Bible what happened when everyone did what was right in their own eyes.
Someone has to intervene.
It was Christians who brought an end to slavery and chimney boys.

Should they have stood by just because it was deemed acceptable by the general population?

Well I don't see giving women the right to access complete medical care even if their pregnant and if then requiring a termination in any way leading to chaos or moral degregatiom as you said, it's simply showing compassion and respect for their life. It is denied by the 8th as it stands and that is what will change if the 8th is repealed

The world being in chaos and moral degreation and only Christians can save it is normally seen only as a mantra in fundamentalist Christian groups both here in Europe and in the US, while also used by far right parties to gather a support base, and by racist organisations such as the KKK who identify as Christian and carried out murder in the name of god.

I'm not of course claiming that you are racist or a fundamentalist Christian in any way, but I don't find your posts to be Christian orientated as already stated.

Cabaal · 16-04-2018 10:46PM

end of the road wrote: »

it's a valid opinion. grant it it's not shared by everyone who would be against unrestricted abortion/abortion on request/on demand but it is still a valid viewpoint, as some will believe that the unborn should not lose their lives because of the circumstances of how they were conceived. by all means you don't have to agree with it but it's hardly "crap" as you discribe it.

Actually it is crap. And that is very much a valid opinion.

Just like it would be crap to suggest that after the rapist serves his jail term he should be entitled to visitation rights to his off spring.

After all, every baby deserves a mammy and daddy.... Right?

You claim to care about life but the reality is pro life growing give a crap about victims when it comes to their mental and physical health.

I thought we as a society had moved on and realised mental health was important, but the flippant attitude pro life people have to it is extremely worrying.

Cabaal · 16-04-2018 10:48PM

If people here are do against abortions why aren't you busy lobbying to repeal the 13th and 14th amendments?

robarmstrong · 16-04-2018 10:56PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Actually it is crap. And that is very much a valid opinion.

Just like it would be crap to suggest that after the rapist serves his jail term he should be entitled to visitation rights to his off spring.

After all, every baby deserves a mammy and daddy.... Right?

You claim to care about life but the reality is pro life growing give a crap about victims when it comes to their mental and physical health.

I thought we as a society had moved on and realised mental health was important, but the flippant attitude pro life people have to it is extremely worrying.

They aren't pro-life, just pro-birth.

I'm pro-birth but I'm voting pro-choice, throughout myself and my partner's history with miscarriage and unfortunately abortion, I have thought of them as my babies since the second she passed a pregnancy test, but my opinion does not trump the scientific, legal and medical term of "fetus". I also don't want my future daughters to suffer what so many women before them have suffered and endured to seek a medical procedure that should be made available to them despite my opinion on the procedure itself, so I'm voting to repeal.

To be brutally honest I'm against abortion but I am not ashamed to say I could not give a toss about what happens to the babies afterwards providing they aren't aborted, I just wish others would admit it too.

end of the road · 16-04-2018 11:01PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Actually it is crap. And that is very much a valid opinion.

Just like it would be crap to suggest that after the rapist serves his jail term he should be entitled to visitation rights to his off spring.

After all, every baby deserves a mammy and daddy.... Right?

no, wrong. a rapist is a danger and i have no issue with him being kept away from his child.

Cabaal wrote: »

You claim to care about life but the reality is pro life growing give a crap about victims when it comes to their mental and physical health.

i do. and most pro-life people do.

Cabaal wrote: »

I thought we as a society had moved on and realised mental health was important, but the flippant attitude pro life people have to it is extremely worrying.

you actually mean a mix of people from both sides. not caring about people isn't exclusive to one side, dispite all attempts to try and make it out to be otherwise.

Cabaal wrote: »

If people here are do against abortions why aren't you busy lobbying to repeal the 13th and 14th amendments?

already answered, have a look back through the thread.

Cabaal · 16-04-2018 11:24PM

You seem to think the question about the 13th and 14th were directed personally at you, sorry to burst your bubble but you're not that important and I've very little regard for any of your posts.

It's directed at all forced birthers in this thread.

As for laughable claims regarding caring about physical and mental health, you've a funny way of showing it by forcing rape victims to go to term against their wishes. Must make you warm and fuzzy inside.

end of the road · 16-04-2018 11:43PM

Cabaal wrote: »

As for laughable claims regarding caring about physical and mental health, you've a funny way of showing it by forcing rape victims to go to term against their wishes. Must make you warm and fuzzy inside.

neither mother or baby suffering makes me warm and fuzzy inside. it's not what i want.
the fact i care about both is not laughable to me. i believe it is the right thing to do.

Timberrrrrrrr · 16-04-2018 11:56PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

He was neither Jewish nor Christian.
Have you a point to make or are you just after a cheap score?

My point is you claimed Christians bought an end to slavery while glossing over the fact that Christians bought slavery to the (modern) world and fought wars to try and keep it!

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-04-2018 10:25AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

My point is you claimed Christians bought an end to slavery while glossing over the fact that Christians bought slavery to the (modern) world and fought wars to try and keep it!

That's were your definition of Christian differs to mine.
Just because I dress up in a Hamburger suit it doesn't make me a hamburger.

As I said, have you a point to make?

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-04-2018 10:27AM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

That's were your definition of Christian differs to mine.
Just because I dress up in a Hamburger suit it doesn't make me a hamburger.

As I said, have you a point to make?

Ah right, i get you now

A Christian is whatever you decide a Christian is

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-04-2018 12:19PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah right, i get you now

A Christian is whatever you decide a Christian is

No, a Christian is defined by the new testament.i suggest you read it.

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-04-2018 12:23PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

No, a Christian is defined by the new testament.i suggest you read it.

So in your eyes no Christians owned slaves ever?

uck51js9zml2yt · 17-04-2018 02:17PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So in your eyes no Christians owned slaves ever?

I can't answer that one and neither can you.
What has slavery got to do with abortion and this thread?

If you want to discuss it, open another thread.

It really seems to be a case of "I don't have an argument so I'll discuss another topic'

I'm out of this thread...

Timberrrrrrrr · 17-04-2018 02:32PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

I can't answer that one and neither can you.
What has slavery got to do with abortion and this thread?

If you want to discuss it, open another thread.

It really seems to be a case of "I don't have an argument so I'll discuss another topic'

I'm out of this thread...

Seriously? It was you who bought the subject of slavery into the thread not me

smacl · 17-04-2018 02:43PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

That's were your definition of Christian differs to mine.
Just because I dress up in a Hamburger suit it doesn't make me a hamburger.

As I said, have you a point to make?

So what percentage of Ireland's population would you consider Christian, by your definition of the word?

Cabaal · 17-04-2018 02:57PM

Katie Full Leak wrote: »

I can't answer that one and neither can you...

Err yes you both can if you bother to read a history book, Christians most certainly did own slaves and many of them fought to have the right to continue to do so.

Christians also went to the Americas and killed thousands in wars and millions with the diseases they brought with them from 1491 onwards.

We know all of the above as factual.

antiskeptic · 20-04-2018 09:15AM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I have thought of them as my babies since the second she passed a pregnancy test, but my opinion does not trump the scientific, legal and medical term of "fetus".

Au cointreau Rodney. Your opinion is the very thing which gives the scientific, legal and medical view prime place in your worldview.

You are responsible for giving it prime place, in other words. If you bow the knee to it, it's because you chose to. Same as with any god.

antiskeptic · 20-04-2018 09:20AM

Cabaal wrote: »

As for laughable claims regarding caring about physical and mental health, you've a funny way of showing it by forcing rape victims to go to term against their wishes. Must make you warm and fuzzy inside.

Folk still aren't banging on about all the peripheral reasons people have abortions?

Why don't folk concentrate on lifestyle stuff?

Peregrinus · 20-04-2018 09:23AM

robarmstrong wrote: »

I'm pro-birth but I'm voting pro-choice, throughout myself and my partner's history with miscarriage and unfortunately abortion, I have thought of them as my babies since the second she passed a pregnancy test, but my opinion does not trump the scientific, legal and medical term of "fetus".

antiskeptic wrote: »

Au cointreau Rodney. Your opinion is the very thing which gives the scientific, legal and medical view prime place in your worldview.

You are responsible for giving it prime place, in other words. If you bow the knee to it, it's because you chose to. Same as with any god.

What antiskeptic said. The moral status that we assign to the unborn entity (or to anything, really) doesn't flow from the word used to name it. Rather, the word we use to name it reflects the moral status we assign it.

smacl · 20-04-2018 11:34AM

antiskeptic wrote: »

Why don't folk concentrate on lifestyle stuff?

Ok, so say you have a young woman, late teens, early twenties, who gets pregnant. Prior to this her plans were to have a career, be in a situation to afford to live independently of her folks, and perhaps start a family in later life or not. Carrying the pregnancy to term in order to give the child up for adoption places some serious stresses on this plan. Carrying the pregnancy to term and keeping the baby scuttles it. Another case is the woman who already has a family and is struggling to make ends meet. Having another unwanted child could seriously disadvantage the woman and her family, maybe leaving them destitute These are what I'm guessing you're rather glibly labelling as lifestyle choices. If these woman don't share your convictions about abortion, chances are they'll travel to have one. This also carries significant risks, stresses and has attendant costs, but is something thousands of women in this country already do every year as the least worst option available to them.

What gives you the right to say these women should be subject to this hardship, given they're going to avail of an abortion one way or another? Frankly, I find it shameful and barbaric that you would subject someone else to such hardship as you'll never have to face first hand in defence of your own rather dubious morality.

end of the road · 20-04-2018 01:27PM

smacl wrote: »

Ok, so say you have a young woman, late teens, early twenties, who gets pregnant. Prior to this her plans were to have a career, be in a situation to afford to live independently of her folks, and perhaps start a family in later life or not. Carrying the pregnancy to term in order to give the child up for adoption places some serious stresses on this plan. Carrying the pregnancy to term and keeping the baby scuttles it. Another case is the woman who already has a family and is struggling to make ends meet. Having another unwanted child could seriously disadvantage the woman and her family, maybe leaving them destitute These are what I'm guessing you're rather glibly labelling as lifestyle choices. If these woman don't share your convictions about abortion, chances are they'll travel to have one. This also carries significant risks, stresses and has attendant costs, but is something thousands of women in this country already do every year as the least worst option available to them.

What gives you the right to say these women should be subject to this hardship, given they're going to avail of an abortion one way or another? Frankly, I find it shameful and barbaric that you would subject someone else to such hardship as you'll never have to face first hand in defence of your own rather dubious morality.

because there are alternatives to abortion, and they are taking a human life for lifestyle reasons which they have the ability to try and avoid.

Delirium · 20-04-2018 01:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

because there are alternatives to abortion, and they are taking a human life for lifestyle reasons which they have the ability to try and avoid.

How, other than abortion, does someone who is pregnant terminate the pregnancy?

SusieBlue · 20-04-2018 01:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

because there are alternatives to abortion, and they are taking a human life for lifestyle reasons which they have the ability to try and avoid.

What are the alternatives?

I recall discussing adoption legalities with you on several other threads, several times, so we know that option is out.
We both know contraception isn't 100% reliable.
We also know no significant changes have been implemented to help struggling women since the 8th was introduced 35 years ago, so that point is null.
"Campaign for more help from the government" is of no use to a woman having a crisis pregnancy today.
We're talking about women having crisis's now, this moment, this week.

So I'm very interested to hear what suggestions you have as alternatives, for a woman who finds herself pregnant and cannot or will not remain so.
I'm all ears?

smacl · 20-04-2018 02:47PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

What antiskeptic said. The moral status that we assign to the unborn entity (or to anything, really) doesn't flow from the word used to name it. Rather, the word we use to name it reflects the moral status we assign it.

Thing is though P., we use different words to describe the same thing. if you call a fetus a baby, it is a baby in your opinion. If I call a fetus a fetus, then it is not a baby in my opinion. What we're left with here amounts to no more than differing subjective opinions. The question I'd then ask is on what grounds is your opinion more valid than mine, or far more importantly, that of the pregnant woman?

If we compare the above to a newly born baby, we have universal agreement that it is a baby, which makes it very different from the fetus. I would suggest that before we can dictate to a pregnant woman what she can and can't do, to the extent that it might ruin her life, we need rather more than subjective opinion. As a bare minimum we need strong consensus and even then I think the opinion of the pregnant woman carries considerably more weight than that of any third party.

smacl · 20-04-2018 02:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

because there are alternatives to abortion, and they are taking a human life for lifestyle reasons which they have the ability to try and avoid.

You might want to explain how the woman who finds herself pregnant tries to avoid it, because short of owning a TARDIS, avoiding things that have happened in the past doesn't actually work.

end of the road · 20-04-2018 06:05PM

Delirium wrote: »

How, other than abortion, does someone who is pregnant terminate the pregnancy?

she carys it to term and it ends either naturally or via a c-section.

SusieBlue wrote: »

What are the alternatives?

I recall discussing adoption legalities with you on several other threads, several times, so we know that option is out.
We both know contraception isn't 100% reliable.
We also know no significant changes have been implemented to help struggling women since the 8th was introduced 35 years ago, so that point is null.
"Campaign for more help from the government" is of no use to a woman having a crisis pregnancy today.
We're talking about women having crisis's now, this moment, this week.

So I'm very interested to hear what suggestions you have as alternatives, for a woman who finds herself pregnant and cannot or will not remain so.
I'm all ears?

she can work more hours, if she is struggling enough there are charities who can help her, and if she qualifies there are likely some extra supports she can get from wellfare. either way, abortion on demand isn't required as there are always other options.

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

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