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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #8222
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    baylah17 wrote: »
    But we know with certainty that the 12 week old fetus is NOT a human being, so thats cleared that up

    Really? Where are you getting this from? Maybe I'll actually learn something today.


  • #8223
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Deleted User wrote: »
    If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

    Except what you quoted the keyword being "unlawful".

    It isn't outright illegal to have an abortion in Ireland, it is just extremely strict, I think there has been around 60 legal abortions here in the last 3 or 4 years.

    Tell me how that's murder, if abortion is legal, it removes the "unlawful" aspect.


  • #8224
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    professore wrote: »
    There is quite a good chance that voting repeal will lead to no change ....

    Wait until all those rural TDs have to be seen to be voting for abortion in the Dail ....

    Have said all along that repeal was a stupid way to approach this, amending it to have basic outlines about when it is and isn't OK to have an abortion and let the public vote and put it in the constitution was the way to go. Now you have no idea what you are voting for if you vote yes. You know for certain if you vote no.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/no-guarantee-a-yes-vote-will-lead-to-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-watchdog-36838099.html

    The booklet states the legal effect of a Yes vote would be that the Oireachtas has full authority "to pass laws regulating the termination of pregnancy".

    "These laws need not limit the availability of termination to circumstances where there is a real and substantial risk to the life of the mother. Any law may be changed by the Oireachtas," the commission says.

    It also reinforces the fact that TDs and senators may not be able to reach agreement on what type of legislation should be passed, in which case the existing laws will apply even if the Eighth Amendment is repealed.

    It's highly unlikely there will be no change after repeal. Nearly everyone agrees there should be some change, even if it is just for cases like FFA. TDs who will object outright to any legislative change are in the minority, so the status quo won't be maintained.

    As for putting grounds into the constitution, that's been discussed ad nauseum. The issues with that approach have been well highlighted, and no one advocating this approach has been able to explain how they would mitigate for those issues.

    If people want to see change, then a Yes vote is the only viable option to make change happen. Because what we can be certain of with a No vote is that the status quo will be maintained and that helps or protects no one.


  • #8225
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Murder is a matter of fact not a matter of opinion. Abortion is not murder. If it was the law would treat both the same. It doesn't

    It might not be on the same level as murder but it's a crime at the moment under Irish law with pretty serious penalties.
    22. (1) It shall be an offence to intentionally destroy unborn human life.
    (2) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.

    (3) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.


  • #8226
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The moment a fetus becomes a human is entirely subjective, hence why this is so contentious.

    In the eyes of the law, upon birth (or at the stage of viability), so it isn't entirely subjective, it's an emotional estimate of when it becomes "human".

    When it has full human rights applied and awarded to it, I would consider it human, until then, it is of human nature.


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  • #8227
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8228
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    Even if no law is passed afterwards repeal of the 8th will have a positive effect on maternity care.

    How? I'm not for or against, just wondering? Do you mean people taking legal challenges? Surely without any legislation, the current legal precedents would remain in place?


  • #8229
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #8230
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    In the eyes of the law, upon birth (or at the stage of viability), so it isn't entirely subjective, it's an emotional estimate of when it becomes "human".

    When it has full human rights applied and awarded to it, I would consider it human, until then, it is of human nature.

    So I presume you'd be fine with abortions up until 9 months yeah?


  • #8231
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ....... wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    You think a 9 month old healthy fetus 1 hour before birth shouldn't be offered any right to life?

    I disagree. My view is that abortion is a necessary evil.

    I'm OK with 12 weeks - because you have to draw the line somewhere, FFA and mother's life in danger. I think other than that it should be defined as an unborn child and given human rights - as in all practical senses a 1 month old baby is no more human than an 8 month old fetus.


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  • #8232
    baylah17
    Closed Accounts Posts: 790 ✭✭✭baylah17


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So I presume you'd be fine with abortions up until 9 months yeah?
    You should avoid preumpions
    I am in favour of terminating a pregnancy at any stage if the life of the mother is at risk, at 9 months that would be called inducement or C Section.
    Next....


  • #8233
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So I presume you'd be fine with abortions up until 9 months yeah?

    This has been done to death on this thread several times already on this thread.
    This referendum is for 12 weeks on request so muddying the waters by talking about aborting a full term fetus is just deflecting.
    It has nothing to do with what we are voting on.


  • #8234
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    robarmstrong wrote: »
    In the eyes of the law, upon birth (or at the stage of viability), so it isn't entirely subjective, it's an emotional estimate of when it becomes "human".

    When it has full human rights applied and awarded to it, I would consider it human, until then, it is of human nature.

    I agree. And that's why this imaginary line when a fetus becomes human - and let's face it it is imaginary - since babies are effectively helpless for several months after birth you could make an argument they aren't human either - but they are so "cute" ....

    Make that call and write it into the referendum and put it in the constitution. End Of Debate.

    What we are doing now people will still be fighting about the ins and outs of abortion in 10 years time.


  • #8235
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    This has been done to death on this thread several times already on this thread.
    This referendum is for 12 weeks on request so muddying the waters by talking about aborting a full term fetus is just deflecting.
    It has nothing to do with what we are voting on.

    I'm sorry, it isn't about 12 weeks. That's factually incorrect. It's about some group of politicians imagining that's what MIGHT happen if they can all agree. Like the Bertie Bowl or the Dublin Metro. The Referendum Commission themselves say this.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/no-guarantee-a-yes-vote-will-lead-to-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-watchdog-36838099.html

    I will probably vote yes. But am very unhappy about it.


  • #8236
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    If you believe the unborn is a human being, then it is murder

    Well, the law disagrees, so that is very much a matter of personal opinion. Calling people who disagree murderers is not on.


  • #8237
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,598 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    Deleted User wrote: »
    So I presume you'd be fine with abortions up until 9 months yeah?

    Absolutely of course yeah, on demand too.


  • #8238
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    How? I'm not for or against, just wondering? Do you mean people taking legal challenges? Surely without any legislation, the current legal precedents would remain in place?

    the current precedents are based on the existence of the 8th. once the 8th is gone we can have better precedents.


  • #8239
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    baylah17 wrote: »
    You should avoid preumpions
    I am in favour of terminating a pregnancy at any stage if the life of the mother is at risk, at 9 months that would be called inducement or C Section.
    Next....

    So you value the life of the mother over the life of the unborn. I can get behind that.


  • #8240
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    This has been done to death on this thread several times already on this thread.
    This referendum is for 12 weeks on request so muddying the waters by talking about aborting a full term fetus is just deflecting.
    It has nothing to do with what we are voting on.

    I completely agree.

    But the argument that I was presented with was that there is no difference in a fetus right up until birth.


  • #8241
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    the current precedents are based on the existence of the 8th. once the 8th is gone we can have better precedents.

    Not a legal expert but that sounds like it could be true.


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  • #8242
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    professore wrote: »
    I agree. And that's why this imaginary line when a fetus becomes human - and let's face it it is imaginary - since babies are effectively helpless for several months after birth you could make an argument they aren't human either - but they are so "cute" ....

    Make that call and write it into the referendum and put it in the constitution. End Of Debate.

    What we are doing now people will still be fighting about the ins and outs of abortion in 10 years time.

    Well, yes, they are helpless, but any willing adult can take on said care and responsibility for that baby. It doesn't have to be the mother.
    Unfortunately, you can't transfer a pregnancy to another person. Only the person pregnant can bring the baby to term.
    So the scenarios there are quite different.

    Putting things like this into the constitution is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.


  • #8243
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    It might not be on the same level as murder but it's a crime at the moment under Irish law with pretty serious penalties.

    so you agree that abortion is not murder?


  • #8244
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    I agree. And that's why this imaginary line when a fetus becomes human - and let's face it it is imaginary - since babies are effectively helpless for several months after birth you could make an argument they aren't human either - but they are so "cute" ....

    Make that call and write it into the referendum and put it in the constitution. End Of Debate.

    What we are doing now people will still be fighting about the ins and outs of abortion in 10 years time.


    you really couldn't. a state of helplessness is not relevant when we are deciding what is and isnt a person. Sentience is relevant.


  • #8245
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    professore wrote: »
    I'm sorry, it isn't about 12 weeks. That's factually incorrect. It's about some group of politicians imagining that's what MIGHT happen if they can all agree. Like the Bertie Bowl or the Dublin Metro. The Referendum Commission themselves say this.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/no-guarantee-a-yes-vote-will-lead-to-abortion-up-to-12-weeks-watchdog-36838099.html

    I will probably vote yes. But am very unhappy about it.

    We aren't going to go from being one of the most conservative countries in the world, to a free for all in the matter of a couple of weeks.
    To suggest so is scaremongering.

    It reminds me of the same sex marriage referendum... "This isn't just about lads wanting to marry lads, next they'll be wanting to marry their dog, or a tree, or the sofa, who knows what they MIGHT legalise on the back of this"....
    Its all sounding very familiar.


  • #8246
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    ohnonotgmail wrote: »
    so you agree that abortion is not murder?

    For me personally? I think aborting a viable fetus is murder. If it's not viable, then it isn't murder. Something to be avoided if at all possible, but shouldn't be illegal.


  • #8247
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,916 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    professore wrote: »
    For me personally? I think aborting a viable fetus is murder. If it's not viable, then it isn't murder. Something to be avoided if at all possible, but shouldn't be illegal.

    I meant as a matter of fact.


  • #8248
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I completely agree.

    But the argument that I was presented with was that there is no difference in a fetus right up until birth.

    Legally there isn't. The only right the unborn has is the right to life. This right is the same whether they are 10 weeks gestated or 35 weeks gestated.
    Currently, the right doesn't get any stronger or weaker, based on the gestation of the pregnancy.
    So its true, there is no difference.


  • #8249
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Really? Where are you getting this from? Maybe I'll actually learn something today.
    "Person" is a legal construct. We don't all get to have an opinion on what a "person" is.

    A "person" is whatever the law says it is. And law says that a person comes into existence at birth.

    "Human being" is not a legal term, it's a nothing phrase really, it does not confer any legal rights or obligations. So discussing whether or not a foetus is a "human being" is an exercise in futility, since it matters not whether it is a "human being" or not. If we can agree it is, then that means nothing. If we can agree it's not, that means nothing.


  • #8250
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Well, yes, they are helpless, but any willing adult can take on said care and responsibility for that baby. It doesn't have to be the mother.
    Unfortunately, you can't transfer a pregnancy to another person. Only the person pregnant can bring the baby to term.
    So the scenarios there are quite different.

    Putting things like this into the constitution is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.

    If the fetus is viable outside the womb, the mother can induce pregnancy and then have it adopted. Sure it isn't pleasant, but either is caring for an old sick relative with say dementia.

    And putting the 8th in the constitution reflected the opinions of people AT THE TIME. It worked extremely well for what it was designed to do.


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  • #8251
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


This discussion has been closed.
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