When to add vat

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 05:09PM #1

Hi I’m starting to think of starting up a business of supplying and fitting of carpentry items.

My question is.

Let’s say my material list is as follows:

Door €25
Unit €25
Worktop €25
Accessories €25
Drawers €25
Delivery €25

Total € 150 (A)

Do I now add vat at 23% meaning. Material total is € 150+23% = €184.50 (B)

Labour

Workshop 3 hours @35 per hour €105
Fitting 3 hours @35 per hour €105

Total €210 (C)
Plus vat @13.5%
Total €238.35 (D)

Do I know add A + C together and add 13.5%
Making sale price to customer €408.60

Or do I add B + C and add 13.5% = €447.75

Or do I add B + D and add 13.5% = €479.93

Quite a different in sale price in all 3 options so any advice welcomed as not sure how too price with vat added.

Also how is vat applied to delivery and do I add vat to markup.

Tia

22-04-2018 05:12PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

......
Do I know add A + C together and add 13.5%
Making sale price to customer €408.60

.....

Tia

This

Dunno what you mean about delivery.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 05:13PM

Augeo wrote: »

This

Dunno what you mean about delivery.

I was told delivery is charged at 23% all the time.

22-04-2018 05:15PM

Delivering what?
Surely you turn up with the stuff, supply & fit.

Or is there a courier or something?

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 05:17PM

Augeo wrote: »

Delivering what?
Surely you turn up with the stuff, supply & fit.

Or is there a courier or something?

Turn up with stuff and fit it yes. But it needs to be charged for delivery as I’m not bringing it in the van for free. And the time it takes to load and unload.

Marcusm · 22-04-2018 06:23PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

Hi I’m starting to think of starting up a business of supplying and fitting of carpentry items.

My question is.

Let’s say my material list is as follows:

Door €25
Unit €25
Worktop €25
Accessories €25
Drawers €25
Delivery €25

Total € 150 (A)

Do I now add vat at 23% meaning. Material total is € 150+23% = €184.50 (B)

Labour

Workshop 3 hours @35 per hour €105
Fitting 3 hours @35 per hour €105

Total €210 (C)
Plus vat @13.5%
Total €238.35 (D)

Do I know add A + C together and add 13.5%
Making sale price to customer €408.60

Or do I add B + C and add 13.5% = €447.75

Or do I add B + D and add 13.5% = €479.93

Quite a different in sale price in all 3 options so any advice welcomed as not sure how too price with vat added.

Also how is vat applied to delivery and do I add vat to markup.

Tia

Are you Vat REGISTERED? When do you expect to exceed the registration threshold? You are putting the cart before the horse.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 07:22PM

Marcusm wrote: »

Are you Vat REGISTERED? When do you expect to exceed the registration threshold? You are putting the cart before the horse.

I will be vat registered and it’s fitted kitchens and robes so I’d expect to be well over the threshold.

Still awaiting an answer to to OP

22-04-2018 07:33PM

You were told...

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 07:42PM

Augeo wrote: »

You were told...

In last work place it was mentioned by accounts

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 07:51PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

In last work place it was mentioned by accounts

Does total A 150e include vat you paid to the wholesaler already At 23% or is that less vat

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 07:52PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Does total A 150e include vat you paid to the wholesaler already At 23% or is that less vat

Less vat.

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 08:11PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

Less vat.

So basically delivery goes in as labour as your not engaging another contractor
So it's material at 125 plus labour at 235 plus vat at 13.5 % equals 408.60 total cost to client

You pay your supplier 153.75e (125 + 23% vat) nd claim back 28.75 from revenue but also pay revenue 48.60 the vat you charged the client
The trick is to try and have your materials 2/3s and labour 1/3 to cancel out

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 08:22PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

So basically delivery goes in as labour as your not engaging another contractor
So it's material at 125 plus labour at 235 plus vat at 13.5 % equals 408.60 total cost to client

You pay your supplier 153.75e (125 + 23% vat) nd claim back 28.75 from revenue but also pay revenue 48.60 the vat you charged the client
The trick is to try and have your materials 2/3s and labour 1/3 to cancel out

So if my labour isn’t a 1/3 I’m at loss in vat as in about.

If I pay 48.60 and claim bk 28.75 in at At loss of 19.85.

So I take that from 408.60 I charge the client which in fact means I get 388.75

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 08:38PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

So if my labour isn’t a 1/3 I’m at loss in vat as in about.

If I pay 48.60 and claim bk 28.75 in at At loss of 19.85.

So I take that from 408.60 I charge the client which in fact means I get 388.75

That's it .
The only way vat helps the small guy is in expenses such as diesel, van, tools, services related to the business.
There's no point in trying to make money out of vat unless your supplying a lot of material. Even on a 6k to 1k ratio the final return to you in vat is only 340e. You've already charged for your labour costs the vat is revenues cut out of it

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 08:42PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

That's it .
The only way vat helps the small guy is in expenses such as diesel, van, tools, services related to the business.
There's no point in trying to make money out of vat unless your supplying a lot of material. Even on a 6k to 1k ratio the final return to you in vat is only 340e. You've already charged for your labour costs the vat is revenues cut out of it

But if I add 23% vat to material at the start. My material will be higher in value.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 08:48PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

That's it .
The only way vat helps the small guy is in expenses such as diesel, van, tools, services related to the business.
There's no point in trying to make money out of vat unless your supplying a lot of material. Even on a 6k to 1k ratio the final return to you in vat is only 340e. You've already charged for your labour costs the vat is revenues cut out of it

How do you work out only 340

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 08:50PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

But if I add 23% vat to material at the start. My material will be higher in value.

Not allowed charge vat on vat
The only time 23% comes in to it is say you made the unit in your workshop and the client bought it from your workshop then you would charge 23% to the client.
I think you can deliver it but once you don't assemble anything on the clients property.

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 08:52PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

How do you work out only 340

Sorry meant 5k materials plus 1 k labour 6k total + vat at 13.5%

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 08:53PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Not allowed charge vat on vat
The only time 23% comes in to it is say you made the unit in your workshop and the client bought it from your workshop then you would charge 23% to the client.
I think you can deliver it but once you don't assemble anything on the clients property.

Really. This is the information I need lol. Thanks for that.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 08:58PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Sorry meant 5k materials plus 1 k labour 6k total + vat at 13.5%

Thanks for your input.

And last one then. Do you add margin/markup before you apply vat at 13.5% or after the vat is added

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 09:01PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

Thanks for your input.

And last one then. Do you add margin/markup before you apply vat at 13.5% or after the vat is added

Maybe I’m not explaining this properly to you.

I charge 35 per hour and that covers labour taxes and overheads. Do I add a markup as well.

22-04-2018 09:04PM

You have to look at things in an exVAT fashion.

Buy something at 100 + VAT @ 23% ..... you get the 23% back.

You install/fit that thing for 50 labour, total 150 + 13.5% VAT....you give the VAT over in your returns.

You don't make or lose money on the VAT portion.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 09:11PM

Augeo wrote: »

You have to look at things in an exVAT fashion.

Buy something at 100 + VAT @ 23% ..... you get the 23% back.

You install/fit that thing for 50 labour, total 150 + 13.5% VAT....you give the VAT over in your returns.

You don't make or lose money on the VAT portion.[/quote

But I do lose in vat. If I’m paying in more than I’m getting back.

“So if my labour isn’t a 1/3 I’m at loss in vat as in about.

If I pay 48.60 and claim bk 28.75 in at At loss of 19.85.

So I take that from 408.60 I charge the client which in fact means I get 388.75”

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 09:16PM

Augeo wrote: »

You have to look at things in an exVAT fashion.

Buy something at 100 + VAT @ 23% ..... you get the 23% back.

You install/fit that thing for 50 labour, total 150 + 13.5% VAT....you give the VAT over in your returns.

You don't make or lose money on the VAT portion.

Or should I be charging 23% vat for this example

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 09:21PM

Margin of 10% or what ever you think you'll get away with before Vat .

Sit down write out every thing for the years costs
Insurances
Pensions
Transport costs incl Service, tax, DOE, repayments, fuel
Tools and equipment yearly cost
Rent
Sundries
Office equipment
Accountancy costs

Then add your desired yearly wage to all that.
Divide by 48 allowing for 4 weeks holidays a year incl bank holidays and sick days
Then divide that by 40 avg hourly working week
That's your hourly rate min 8 hrs a day 5 days a week can be a scary enough figure to have in your head starting out .
I was there myself, tbh you'll find yourself putting in at least 60 hrs a week min to attain that figure but best of luck with the new venture

22-04-2018 09:22PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

...

But I do lose in vat. If I’m paying in more than I’m getting back.

“So if my labour isn’t a 1/3 I’m at loss in vat as in about.

If I pay 48.60 and claim bk 28.75 in at At loss of 19.85.

So I take that from 408.60 I charge the client which in fact means I get 388.75”

Look at the figures ex VAT

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

Or should I be charging 23% vat for this example

It's 13.5% as you are installing / fitting the thing. Parts & labour all at 13.5%

You'll be buying stuff at trade / discounted prices exVAT...you can charge RRP for it so there's some "profit" there too.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 09:30PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Margin of 10% or what ever you think you'll get away with before Vat .

Sit down write out every thing for the years costs
Insurances
Pensions
Transport costs incl Service, tax, DOE, repayments, fuel
Tools and equipment yearly cost
Rent
Sundries
Office equipment
Accountancy costs

Then add your desired yearly wage to all that.
Divide by 48 allowing for 4 weeks holidays a year incl bank holidays and sick days
Then divide that by 40 avg hourly working week
That's your hourly rate min 8 hrs a day 5 days a week can be a scary enough figure to have in your head starting out .
I was there myself, tbh you'll find yourself putting in at least 60 hrs a week min to attain that figure but best of luck with the new venture

I have all that worked out to be €25 but I will charge €35.

So I put the markup before the vat is added

Bonzo Delaney · 22-04-2018 09:52PM

Kerrytony77 wrote: »

I have all that worked out to be €25 but I will charge €35.

So I put the markup before the vat is added

Yep.
One last time on the non existent vat loss for you the original job broken down and reversed... bear with me.

Material 125
Labour 235
13.5% vat 48.60
Total cost 408.60

Revenue gets 48.60
Your left with 360
Pay suplier 153.75 (125 + 28.75 (23% vat) )
Your left with 206.25
Here's the magic......
Plus the vat back 28.75
Equals the original 235e labour cost.

No loss just revenue getting their cut

22-04-2018 09:56PM

Keep track of every thing in Excel.....in & out..... exVAT & the applicable VAT alongside.

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 10:05PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Yep.
One last time on the non existent vat loss for you the original job broken down and reversed... bear with me.

Material 125
Labour 235
13.5% vat 48.60
Total cost 408.60

Revenue gets 48.60
Your left with 360
Pay suplier 153.75 (125 + 28.75 (23% vat) )
Your left with 206.25
Here's the magic......
Plus the vat back 28.75
Equals the original 235e labour cost.

No loss just revenue getting their cut

Thanks for making that out.

What sort of excel sheet can I make out.

Ps I’m more of a tradesman than office man lol hence the questions

Kerrytony77 · 22-04-2018 10:07PM

Bonzo Delaney wrote: »

Yep.
One last time on the non existent vat loss for you the original job broken down and reversed... bear with me.

Material 125
Labour 235
13.5% vat 48.60
Total cost 408.60

Revenue gets 48.60
Your left with 360
Pay suplier 153.75 (125 + 28.75 (23% vat) )
Your left with 206.25
Here's the magic......
Plus the vat back 28.75
Equals the original 235e labour cost.

No loss just revenue getting their cut

Should I have charged vat @ 23% in this example as labour is more than material

When to add vat

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