The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

SusieBlue · 20-04-2018 07:18PM

Also can I just point out that this thread keeps getting heated because of the inflammatory, aggravating posts being made by one person.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2018 07:19PM

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Fair play to you if you fancy the ride and can stop to evaluate all the consequences :pac:

I knew what the consequences were before I got the ride which is where the personal responsibility part comes in. Sorry if the didn't teach you that outside the pale.

SusieBlue · 20-04-2018 07:20PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Nobody is asking you stop having sex, where has anyone suggested that you stop having sex?

So all this about repealing the 8th as a healthcare issue is just a ruse because you want abortion to be available as a form of birth control in case you contraception fails.

Why are you getting personal? Lose the attitude.

I would never have an abortion but I support other women’s right to make that choice.
I don’t believe that anyone would use it as birth control, least of all me, so that’s more naivety on your part.

You said if someone doesn’t want to get pregnant, don’t have sex. That’s not normal in a healthy relationship. It simply isn’t.
And it’s of f*ck all use to someone already in the midst of a crisis pregnancy. Not very helpful advice from you.

Martina1991 · 20-04-2018 07:20PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote:

If you don't want to have children, there is no reason why you can't have sex and avoid pregnancy unless you are extremely unlucky or reckless , this is a fact which every medical professional will tell you. If you are in an adult relationship and want to enjoy sex then go ahead and tear the mattress to shreds, but if you become pregnant even though you took precautions then that is your tough luck! You knew the risks but wanted the rewards. We don't get everything we want in life all of the time and these arguments of the imaginary victims and the marginal cases to try and prove and point which you have no interest in defending hold no water. It's called personal responsibility

You really are an unbearably ignorant piece of work.

I can only assume you are a virgin or some sort of sterile hermit.

The thousands and thousands or Irish women suffering daily are not imaginary.

The 8th will be repealed and you can suck it.

SusieBlue · 20-04-2018 07:21PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

I knew what the consequences were before I got the ride which is where the personal responsibility part comes in. Sorry if the didn't teach you that outside the pale.

Having an abortion IS taking responsibility for some people. Don’t worry, I’ll keep repeating until you understand.
Your ignorance is astounding. You must be so lonely up on that high horse you’ve no hope of getting the ride, no crisis pregnancies for you!

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2018 07:24PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Having an abortion IS taking responsibility for some people. Don’t worry, I’ll keep repeating until you understand.
Your ignorance is astounding. You must be so lonely up on that hihh horse you’ve no hope of getting the ride, no crisis pregnancies for you!

Having an abortion is also considered killing an unborn child for some people. We can keep repeating that until you understand.

v638sg7k1a92bx · 20-04-2018 07:30PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

You really are an unbearably ignorant piece of work.

I can only assume you are a virgin or some sort of sterile hermit.

The thousands and thousands or Irish women suffering daily are not imaginary.

The 8th will be repealed and you can suck it.

No it won't. You know, I know it and most of the posters on here know it.

Most rational people will accept abortion in cases where the mothers life and or health is at serious risk but that's not what is being proposed and even if the 8th was repealed it still wouldn't address those concerns. What most people on here and those who favour repeal really want is unrestricted access to abortion right up until birth, and this argument about it being a healthcare issue and the epidemic of imaginary victims going to England is just a ruse to get the 8th repealed so you can try and legislate for abortion on demand.

Not going to happen.

Ave Sodalis · 20-04-2018 07:32PM

Tickers, how can I afford to go to England?

captbarnacles · 20-04-2018 07:33PM

tretorn wrote: »

robarmstrong wrote: »

My partner has a heart-shaped uterus and a medically diagnosed weak womb, so regardless of any precautions we take, any pregnancy we have gone through (apart from this one which has been all good so far at 27 weeks with a baby girl in there) there was a very, very high chance she was going to miscarry, or the baby would have died further along.

Based on your soundbite, I shouldn't even consider having sex with her, due to the above information. See your logic? We have gone through too many miscarriages and have had an abortion across the water where she was not liable to have support or aftercare.

Despite my belief against abortion, imagine my anger, that my partner could not have this in her own country because technically what's wrong with her isn't a threat to her life and isn't deemed a threat enough (despite the numerous miscarriages) to a pregnancy.

We didn't qualify for the very strict measures put in place, if the 8th was repealed, we would qualify.

Have you ever thought about having a vasectomy.

I wouldnt think any medical person would be in favour of another abortion if your partner has a weak womb. Maybe should you think about taking responsibility for birth control.

Thats your responsibility first and foremost and it takes precedence over your desire for legal abortion.

The alleged deep concern for the unborn always seems to contrast with complete lack of concern for everyone else.

SusieBlue · 20-04-2018 07:35PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Having an abortion is also considered killing an unborn child for some people. We can keep repeating that until you understand.

No one will be forced to have an abortion. You can continue to not avail of abortion services and it will make no difference on your life.

You have no right to interfere or have any input on the life of another person. You sound like a total busybody and you are coming across as extremely ignorant.

20-04-2018 07:38PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

. What most people on here and those who favour repeal really want is unrestricted access to abortion right up until birth.

OMG, we are caught out!!
Yep, that's what we really all want, go out get pregnant whenever we feel like it & wait until we are 7 1/2 months pregnant to try an abort it.

You sound about 14. Have you any idea Of The real world?

Martina1991 · 20-04-2018 07:40PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote:

What most people on here and those who favour repeal really want is unrestricted access to abortion right up until birth , and this argument about it being a healthcare issue and the epidemic of imaginary victims going to England is just a ruse to get the 8th repealed so you can try and legislate for abortion on demand.

No one has said they want abortion up to birth. That's insane and not even proposed.

Stop ignoring the ACTUAL, REAL, HUMAN BEINGS that have and continue to go abroad for abortions.
There are stats to prove it.

I know today is 4/20 but please lay off the crack pipe.

SusieBlue · 20-04-2018 07:42PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

No it won't. You know, I know it and most of the posters on here know it.

Most rational people will accept abortion in cases where the mothers life and or health is at serious risk but that's not what is being proposed and even if the 8th was repealed it still wouldn't address those concerns. What most people on here and those who favour repeal really want is unrestricted access to abortion right up until birth, and this argument about it being a healthcare issue and the epidemic of imaginary victims going to England is just a ruse to get the 8th repealed so you can try and legislate for abortion on demand.

Not going to happen.

Can you please quote exactly where, word for word, someone said they were in favour of unrestricted abortion up till the moment of birth? Thanks in advance, I’d love to see it.

BarleySweets · 20-04-2018 07:46PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

But nobody is forcing you to have sex. It's a choice. You are choosing as an adult to have sex and surely you know that there is a risk that you could get pregnant regardless of whether you take precautions.

There you go, shameful sex. That’s it, isn’t it? Sex is shameful and those who are caught out should be shamed. That’s what you really want, right?

pleas advice · 20-04-2018 07:48PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Why are you getting personal? Lose the attitude.

.

Martina1991 wrote: »

You really are an unbearably ignorant piece of work.
I can only assume you are a virgin or some sort of sterile hermit.
The thousands and thousands or Irish women suffering daily are not imaginary.
The 8th will be repealed and you can suck it.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Don’t worry, I’ll keep repeating until you understand.
Your ignorance is astounding. You must be so lonely up on that high horse you’ve no hope of getting the ride, no crisis pregnancies for you!

SusieBlue wrote: »

You sound like a total busybody and you are coming across as extremely ignorant.

bubblypop wrote: »

You sound about 14. Have you any idea Of The real world?

Martina1991 wrote: »

I know today is 4/20 but please lay off the crack pipe.

...

BarleySweets · 20-04-2018 07:49PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

Can you please quote exactly where, word for word, someone said they were in favour of unrestricted abortion up till the moment of birth? Thanks in advance, I’d love to see it.

I did, to be fair. I believe that a woman has an option to choose to not become a mother at any time she chooses. It’s a consent issue, for me, is a woman has a choice to refuse her consent to become a mother. And as with all consent, there’s no time limit.

Other people can view things differently if they choose.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 20-04-2018 07:50PM

I try and think the best of people and to think that the likes of John McGuirk and Youth Defence don't reflect people with pro-life views, that most of them are probably decent, reasonable people who think they're doing the right thing.

This thread makes that very difficult. Repeated efforts to derail it through megaposts, very obvious lying about being on the fence, and again, like 9 times out of 10, it boils down to "stop having sex ye floozies".

No matter the result, I'll need to rebuild my Faith in human decency and human intelligence a good bit after the result.

Ken. · 20-04-2018 07:52PM

Mod- Tickers, Do not post in this thread again. Reason- Trolling and being a dick.

SusieBlue and Martina1991 24 hour thread ban. Reason- Personal abuse(24 hours instead of perma cause ye were provoked). Please don't post till 8pm tomorrow evening.

nozzferrahhtoo · 20-04-2018 07:52PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Having an abortion is also considered killing an unborn child for some people. We can keep repeating that until you understand.

Oh we understand THAT this is your position. The basis and explanation for that position however we tend not to understand.

Mainly because when any robust discussion on the matter comes up people of your sort shout "Human" at the issue and then, basically, run away. Never explaining what exactly it is about a 12/16 week old fetus we should be valuing at that level and in this context. Whether in isolation and/or in relation to the pregnant women for whom we should have moral and ethical concern.

As you did earlier when you forgot to be ignoring my posts, but then having replied to one you went right back to ignoring them again.

BarleySweets · 20-04-2018 07:53PM

Rogelio Tinkling Cue wrote: »

Nobody is asking you stop having sex, where has anyone suggested that you stop having sex?

So all this about repealing the 8th as a healthcare issue is just a ruse because you want abortion to be available as a form of birth control in case you contraception fails.

Nobody wants abortion available as a contraceptive. By saying that you are completely ignoring all of the situations where abortion in Ireland is necessary, not least the personal stories that people on here have taken the time out of their sunny Friday to tell you. They’ve opened up and shared painful experiences of their own lives just to show you, Rogelio Tinkling Cue, why they support the repeal side. And you ignore all of them, for what? Because you are afraid of casual sex?

Get over your issues with sex and leave the rest of society out of it!

Ken. · 20-04-2018 07:54PM

Mod-Guys, please don't reply to Tickers, S/he can't reply.

BarleySweets · 20-04-2018 07:59PM

Misael Echoing Horse wrote: »

I try and think the best of people and to think that the likes of John McGuirk and Youth Defence don't reflect people with pro-life views, that most of them are probably decent, reasonable people who think they're doing the right thing.

This thread makes that very difficult. Repeated efforts to derail it through megaposts, very obvious lying about being on the fence, and again, like 9 times out of 10, it boils down to "stop having sex ye floozies".

No matter the result, I'll need to rebuild my Faith in human decency and human intelligence a good bit after the result.

As if they deserve the power to alter your view of humanity. Don’t give them that power! You know that the ones on here are the very extreme, don’t let these extremists tarnish your view of the majority. Even if their views on abortion differ to ours, the vast majority are our ilk regardless!

Hammer Archer · 20-04-2018 08:03PM

What this campaign has opened my eyes to is the sheer ignorance of a lot of people to the realities of contraception i.e. that it's not perfect. It's genuinely frightening that grown adults know nothing about something people are taught in their early teens.

horseburger · 20-04-2018 08:04PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

That's funny, when did you even start considering the pros of repeal let alone stop considering?

Great observation.

I am now truly converted to your analysis on this issue.

If I wasn't considering the arguments for and against repeal, I wouldn't be asking the question about the issue of ethics, regarding how an abortion can be granted under a ground, that was not originally requested by the pregnant woman.

I ask about the ethics issue, because if the issue is, that an abortion is requested by the pregnant woman under a particular ground, that isn't covered in legislation, and if the staff at the abortion clinic suggest that, that abortion could be done under another ground, then it seems to me that the abortion clinic would be carrying out practices that contravene legislation.

Therefore, it suggests that when Ivana Bacik says, on the 18th January 2018 episode of Prime Time, that abortion in cases of Down's Syndrome, isn't approved in the recommendations of the Oireachtas Committee - if an abortion clinic staff member suggests another ground, for example of mental health, that was not considered by the pregnant woman - Ivana Bacik can't argue that the abortion of Down's Syndrome cases, won't occur.

Ivana Bacik said nothing, in response to Maria Steen, when this issue was raised by Maria Steen in that episode of Prime Time.

In this scenario, the abortion clinic would know that in reality - that because the original ground requested, was under a ground of disability which isn't approved - that because the alternative ground was suggested to the pregnant woman, by staff of the abortion clinic, that abortion is still being carried out for a reason, that isn't approved in that jurisdiction.

The question of ethics, is the issue that staff at the abortion hospital are suggesting ways that the abortion could be permitted, and this is under another ground, that was not originally requested by the pregnant woman.

Ave Sodalis · 20-04-2018 08:14PM

Hammer Archer wrote: »

What this campaign has opened my eyes to is the sheer ignorance of a lot of people to the realities of contraception i.e. that it's not perfect. It's genuinely frightening that grown adults know nothing about something people are taught in their early teens.

My sister (who's third in the family) is the first person being taught it in school. We had a very embarrassing chat in primary school from a teacher well past retirement age about the physical anatomy, but no contraception. The only chat we had in secondary school was from a celibacy group so not the most informative (think Mean Girls). Sex ed was shockingly bad. My brother never got any talks at all. It's not a small school, and it is meant to be multi-denominational.

horseburger · 20-04-2018 08:15PM

robarmstrong wrote: »

More regurgitating, not a single point of the pros of repeal but more so an issue with the "ethics" of abortion...

I am pointing out that it would be very difficult to know if legislation is being adhered to, judging by the practices of abortion clinics, as outlined by Patrica Lohr of BPAS where she said that an abortion on the ground of sex selection, could be done, under another ground that was not originally requested.

In this case, the clinic would know that the real reason for the abortion was on the ground of sex selection, but that the abortion occurs under another ground, that is suggested to the woman, by the staff at the clinic.

The abortion is occurring in reality because of sex selection, but it is approved under a different ground that was not the ground originally requested.

It raises a question of ethics.

It is a reason against repealing Article 40.3.3 of the Eighth amendment.

robarmstrong · 20-04-2018 08:20PM

horseburger wrote: »

Pointing out that it would be very difficult to know if legislation is being adhered to - by the practices of abortion clinics, as outlined by Patrica Lohr of BPAS - is a reason against repealing the 8th amendment.

.. and my point was that you have yet to even begin to mention the pros of repealing.

Your above paragraph was again, picking at the pro-choice side.

Kk333 · 20-04-2018 08:24PM

I have no problem with abortion. Would anyone be in agreement that both the mother and potential father be heavily involved in the discussion process before hand with the mother obviously making the decision? Also I believe if women have this option of abortion, men should have the opportunity before 12 weeks of legally absolving themselves of all responsibility, financial or otherwise. If the mother decides to come full term with the pregnancy and the father doesn't want children.

BarleySweets · 20-04-2018 08:24PM

horseburger wrote: »

Great observation.

I am now truly converted to your analysis on this issue.

If I wasn't considering the arguments for and against repeal, I wouldn't be asking the question about the issue of ethics, regarding how an abortion can be granted under a ground, that was not originally requested by the pregnant woman.

I ask about the ethics issue, because if the issue is, that an abortion is requested by the pregnant woman under a particular ground, that isn't covered in legislation, and if the staff at the abortion clinic suggest that, that abortion could be done under another ground, then it seems to me that the abortion clinic would be carrying out practices that contravene legislation.

Therefore, it suggests that when Ivana Bacik says, on the 18th January 2018 episode of Prime Time, that abortion in cases of Down's Syndrome, isn't approved in the recommendations of the Oireachtas Committee - if an abortion clinic staff member suggests another ground, for example of mental health, that was not considered by the pregnant woman - Ivana Bacik can't argue that the abortion of Down's Syndrome cases, won't occur.

Ivana Bacik said nothing, in response to Maria Steen, when this issue was raised by Maria Steen in that episode of Prime Time.

In this scenario, the abortion clinic would know that in reality - that because the original ground requested, was under a ground of disability which isn't approved - that because the alternative ground was suggested to the pregnant woman, by staff of the abortion clinic, that abortion is still being carried out for a reason, that isn't approved in that jurisdiction.

The question of ethics, is the issue that staff at the abortion hospital are suggesting ways that the abortion could be permitted, and this is under another ground, that was not originally requested by the pregnant woman.

How is worrying about this affecting your vote? You’re arguing about the imaginary possibility that lies could be told by imaginary staff in a future Irish abortion clinic. Lunacy!

The case you’re referring to happened in Germany, what exactly do you expect Ivana Bacik to say about that? Do you feel that Irish elected officials should pass comments on every possible procedural breach that happens in other countries?

Future Irish legislation regarding how abortion clinics operate will contain checks and balances along with staff training requirements to ensure that procedures are followed ethically. To imagine otherwise in 2018 is ridiculous tinfoil hat wearing nonsense.

20-04-2018 08:27PM

horseburger wrote: »

I am pointing out that it would be very difficult to know if legislation is being adhered to, judging by the practices of abortion clinics, as outlined by Patrica Lohr of BPAS where she said that an abortion on the ground of sex selection, could be done, under another ground that was not originally requested.

In this case, the clinic would know that the real reason for the abortion was on the ground of sex selection, but that the abortion occurs under another ground, that is suggested to the woman, by the staff at the clinic.

The abortion is occurring in reality because of sex selection, but it is approved under a different ground that was not the ground originally requested.

It raises a question of ethics.

It is a reason against repealing Article 40.3.3 of the Eighth amendment.

Ok well least this shows what side of the fence your on, but that was fairly obvious from about your second post.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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