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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #5342
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    Save the 8th have posters of a fully formed baby painted on a woman's belly saying "If killing a baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no".

    How can these blatant lies be allowed on these posters.


  • #5343
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Save the 8th have posters of a fully formed baby painted on a woman's belly saying "If killing a baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no".

    How can these blatant lies be allowed on these posters.


    Ah jaysus...


  • #5344
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Save the 8th have posters of a fully formed baby painted on a woman's belly saying "If killing a baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no".

    How can these blatant lies be allowed on these posters.

    You could argue that they are not actually saying that repealing the 8th will permit widespread abortion at 6 months, so it's not a direct lie - it's grossly and intentionally misleading of course, but that's only to be expected.

    I saw one today that simply said "BABIES WILL DIE - VOTE NO" - truthfulness is not an issue for some people when they believe god is on their side.


  • #5345
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Save the 8th have posters of a fully formed baby painted on a woman's belly saying "If killing a baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no".

    How can these blatant lies be allowed on these posters.

    There is nobody who can disallow it as far as I know.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #5346
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    B0jangles wrote: »
    You could argue that they are not actually saying that repealing the 8th will permit widespread abortion at 6 months, so it's not a direct lie - it's grossly and intentionally misleading of course, but that's only to be expected.


    That's like the PETA video I watched once of a vet lancing a huge cyst on a cow's leg, before cutting to someone pouring a glass of milk. You could also argue that they didn't actually say that you have to slice open the cows leg in order to get milk :P


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  • #5347
    Defunkd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 406 ✭✭Defunkd


    Kurtosis wrote: »
    And that's only England that would be 1 in 7, it would be lower again in Scotland and Wales.
    No. For some reason, England and Wales are grouped as one and Scotland is accounted seperately. I think this was always the case and isn't a result of potential Scottish independence.
    The figures for the abortion stats of 2016, as posted on the BBC website are: Eng/Wales 21%; Sco 17 or 18%. Miscarriages are recorded seperately. I found the "1 in 5" figure a bit fantastical but i even knocked out the calculator myself and it is correct.


  • #5348
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    That's like the PETA video I watched once of a vet lancing a huge cyst on a cow's leg, before cutting to someone pouring a glass of milk. You could also argue that they didn't actually say that you have to slice open the cows leg in order to get milk :P

    That's exactly it; you create an association between A and B without explicitly saying that permitting A will cause B to happen.


  • #5349
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Save the 8th have posters of a fully formed baby painted on a woman's belly saying "If killing a baby at 6 months bothers you, vote no".

    How can these blatant lies be allowed on these posters.

    Because nobody is responsible for holding referendum posters to a standard. In fact, it seems there is no standard to hold them to.

    Referendum Commission and County Councils only seem concerned with littering laws and it seems ASAI don't have referendum materials in their scope.


  • #5350
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    optogirl wrote: »
    The Save the eighth crowd love people with DS so much that they would see nothing wrong in forcing a 12 year old with DS (or any 12 year old) who was raped & pregnant to go through with that pregnancy. Not only that but they think any alternative should be criminalised.

    Ye, criminalising people with DS - that's what pro-lifers stand for... this is beyond contempt and I genuinely feel sad for you. Unless you've any evidence of it of course.


  • #5351
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    thee glitz wrote: »
    Ye, criminalising people with DS - that's what pro-lifers stand for... this is beyond contempt and I genuinely feel sad for you. Unless you've any evidence of it of course.

    Strawman
    noun
    A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

    The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.


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  • #5352
    MkaylaK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19 ✭MkaylaK


    I'm 18 years old and pro-life. There are certainly some, but definitely not a lot of pro-lifers in my age group.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that I truly believe, that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I think that discussion of this highly sensitive issue is important to ensure that everyone is fully informed on both sides of the debate, before they make their decision to vote yes or no.

    There is absolutely no need to belittle or disrespect somebody else simply because they have a different view to you. It's important to remain open minded in this debate to make sure that you choose what you believe is the right vote.

    I'd also like to point out that the Catholic Church (or any church) has had no influence on my choice to be pro-life whatsoever. The notion that all pro-lifers are bible worshippers is simply untrue.

    These are some of the reasons that I have chosen to be pro life.
    I cannot justify destroying innocent human life.
    I cannot understand why we would want to end the lives of babies after 12 weeks for conditions such as cleft palette and down syndrome etc.
    I cannot understand what difference there is in a foetus at 11 weeks and 6 days than at 12 weeks and 1 day. Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance?
    At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped. We know what that is called outside of the womb, so what is the difference inside the womb?
    Remember, the same heart beats in you today as it did when your mother was pregnant with you, the whole way throughout her pregnancy.

    From reading this thread, I know many people will disagree with me and that's ok, but please stay respectful.


  • #5353
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    I'm 18 years old and pro-life. There are certainly some, but definitely not a lot of pro-lifers in my age group.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that I truly believe, that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I think that discussion of this highly sensitive issue is important to ensure that everyone is fully informed on both sides of the debate, before they make their decision to vote yes or no.

    There is absolutely no need to belittle or disrespect somebody else simply because they have a different view to you. It's important to remain open minded in this debate to make sure that you choose what you believe is the right vote.

    These are some of the reasons that I have chosen to be pro life.
    I cannot justify destroying innocent human life.
    I cannot understand why we would want to end the lives of babies after 12 weeks for conditions such as cleft palette and down syndrome etc.
    I cannot understand what difference there is in a foetus at 11 weeks and 6 days than at 12 weeks and 1 day. Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance?
    At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped. We know what that is called outside of the womb, so what is the difference inside the womb?
    Remember, the same heart beats in you today as it did when your mother was pregnant with you, the whole way throughout her pregnancy.

    From reading this thread, I know many people will disagree with me and that's ok, but please stay respectful.
    You want to remain respectful but do you think that you are respectful by shaming them or implying they're 'killers' for ending a pregnancy? You can wrap sentences up in tinsel but your implications are pretty clear.


  • #5354
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    NuMarvel wrote: »

    Strawman
    noun
    A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."

    The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.

    Have I misread something? It seems a highly improbable situation.


  • #5355
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    ..........


    Remember, the same heart beats in you today as it did when your mother was pregnant with you, the whole way throughout her pregnancy.
    ...............


    Human heart cells undergo slow, continual replacement - about 1% per year


  • #5356
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    MkaylaK wrote:
    These are some of the reasons that I have chosen to be pro life. I cannot justify destroying innocent human life. I cannot understand why we would want to end the lives of babies after 12 weeks for conditions such as cleft palette and down syndrome etc. I cannot understand what difference there is in a foetus at 11 weeks and 6 days than at 12 weeks and 1 day. Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance? At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped. We know what that is called outside of the womb, so what is the difference inside the womb? Remember, the same heart beats in you today as it did when your mother was pregnant with you, the whole way throughout her pregnancy.


    You are of course entitled to your opinion, but you owe it to yourself to inform yourself of the facts

    Downs syndrome and cleft palate can not be diagnosed by 12 weeks, so under any new legislation they will not be reasons for termination.

    You speak a lot about the rights of the unborn, what do you think about how the 8th affects the rights of pregnant women?

    How do you feel about a ban on abortion forcing a woman to remain pregnant against her will?


  • #5357
    Ave Sodalis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,555 ✭✭✭Ave Sodalis


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    These are some of the reasons that I have chosen to be pro life.
    I cannot justify destroying innocent human life.
    I cannot understand why we would want to end the lives of babies after 12 weeks for conditions such as cleft palette and down syndrome etc.
    I cannot understand what difference there is in a foetus at 11 weeks and 6 days than at 12 weeks and 1 day. Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance?
    At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped. We know what that is called outside of the womb, so what is the difference inside the womb?
    Remember, the same heart beats in you today as it did when your mother was pregnant with you, the whole way throughout her pregnancy.

    From reading this thread, I know many people will disagree with me and that's ok, but please stay respectful.


    1) Human life is highly debatable. To many people, it's potential
    2) Neither DS or cleft palate are things that will be aborted under current proposed legislation.
    3) 12 weeks was picked due to the high levels of natural miscarriage before this date, and the percentage of abortions carried out before this in countries will more liberal abortion laws. It will also bring us in line with EU norms.
    4) In the womb, that heart is being developed by a living, breathing, feeling woman who, for a huge multitude of reasons, may not be able or want to continue developing the rest of the foetus. It's rarely so straight forward as just not bothered being pregnant anymore.
    5) Yes, and if my mother chose to have an abortion, and for some reason I held conscience after, I would fully understand why.

    Hope you don't find me targetting your points as disrespectful!


  • #5358
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    ................

    I cannot understand what difference there is in a foetus at 11 weeks and 6 days than at 12 weeks and 1 day. Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance?

    .............

    ( In some areas )

    It is legal to drive at 79km/h but it is illegal to drive at 85km/h

    Why does 80km/h mark hold such significance ?


  • #5359
    MkaylaK
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19 ✭MkaylaK


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    You want to remain respectful but do you think that you are respectful by shaming them or implying they're 'killers' for ending a pregnancy? You can wrap sentences up in tinsel but your implications are pretty clear.

    I'm sorry, I don't know what exactly you mean by saying that my 'sentences are wrapped up in tinsel'and not once did I label anybody a 'killer'.In fact, I never even thought of using that word.
    I just asked what's the difference between deliberately ending an innocent life in the womb and ending it outside of the womb. If you can give me a significant difference, I'd honestly love to hear it. That is why it is phrased as a question.
    As I've said, I'm remaining open minded on the issue.


  • #5360
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    pitifulgod wrote: »
    You want to remain respectful but do you think that you are respectful by shaming them or implying they're 'killers' for ending a pregnancy? You can wrap sentences up in tinsel but your implications are pretty clear.

    If you self-identify as being ok with killing, that's your own business. OP made a mature and honest post.


  • #5361
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    .....


    Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance?

    At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped

    ...

    Until ~ 17 weeks, the heart cells are just beating spontaneously

    have a look here :

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=106741775&postcount=5299


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  • #5362
    pitifulgod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭pitifulgod


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    I'm sorry, I don't know what exactly you mean by saying that my 'sentences are wrapped up in tinsel'and not once did I label anybody a 'killer'.In fact, I never even thought of using that word.
    I just asked what's the difference between deliberately ending an innocent life in the womb and ending it outside of the womb. If you can give me a significant difference, I'd honestly love to hear it. That is why it is phrased as a question.
    As I've said, I'm remaining open minded on the issue.

    You said the below, the implication is pretty clear.
    At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped. We know what that is called outside of the womb, so what is the difference inside the womb?


  • #5363
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    I'm sorry, I don't know what exactly you mean by saying that my 'sentences are wrapped up in tinsel'and not once did I label anybody a 'killer'.In fact, I never even thought of using that word.
    I just asked what's the difference between deliberately ending an innocent life in the womb and ending it outside of the womb. If you can give me a significant difference, I'd honestly love to hear it. That is why it is phrased as a question.
    As I've said, I'm remaining open minded on the issue.

    How do you feel about the eighth amendment itself, leaving abortion on the side for a moment, we all know it has been and still potentially could be the cause of a woman's death and cause her health care to be seriously compromised?


  • #5364
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Originally Posted by optogirl  
    The Save the eighth crowd love people with DS so much that they would see nothing wrong in forcing a 12 year old with DS (or any 12 year old) who was raped & pregnant to go through with that pregnancy. Not only that but they think any alternative should be criminalised.
    thee glitz wrote: »
    Ye, criminalising people with DS - that's what pro-lifers stand for... this is beyond contempt and I genuinely feel sad for you. Unless you've any evidence of it of course.

    How about the official position of the PLC regarding pregnant victims of rape and incest, and the fact that under the 8th anyone accessing illegal abortion can face 14 years imprisonment, the very thing (the 8th) the PLC and you wish to keep, is that evidence for you?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/victims-of-rape-and-incest-should-carry-babies-to-full-term-say-campaigners-1.3444429


  • #5365
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    I'm 18 years old and pro-life. There are certainly some, but definitely not a lot of pro-lifers in my age group.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that I truly believe, that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I think that discussion of this highly sensitive issue is important to ensure that everyone is fully informed on both sides of the debate, before they make their decision to vote yes or no....

    ....From reading this thread, I know many people will disagree with me and that's ok, but please stay respectful.

    Have you read any of the women's accounts on the In Her Shoes page on Facebook?

    Actually not any. Just one even. Why not go over there and read literally the very first one showing right now?

    Respectfully,
    Amdublin


  • #5366
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    I just asked what's the difference between deliberately ending an innocent life in the womb and ending it outside of the womb. If you can give me a significant difference, I'd honestly love to hear it. That is why it is phrased as a question.
    As I've said, I'm remaining open minded on the issue.

    One happens very rarely (less than 50 times a year) but there's still political will and public support to prosecute those who carry it out, and it's generally regarded as one of the most serious crimes a person can commit.

    The other happens hundreds of times a year here and thousands of people travel abroad to carry it out. There's little if any public support for prosecutions, to the point that we've protected the freedom to travel above all else. There's no political will for prosecutions, and even those opposed to it have called for the perpetrators of the act to be decriminalised. Some people say it's the most heinous act imaginable, yet are proposing we vote to maintain this status quo in the upcoming referendum.

    Guess which one is which. Then tell me what you think the difference is.


  • #5367
    Martina1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,548 ✭✭✭Martina1991


    MkaylaK wrote:
    These are some of the reasons that I have chosen to be pro life. I cannot justify destroying innocent human life.
    I hear and respect all your reasons for voting no.
    I wish no woman felt they had to have an abortion, for any reason.

    All your reasons are regarding the unborn foetus. But consider the woman's life. The living breathing woman who has to bear the pregnancy. She could be your sister, neighbour, best friend.

    She might have been raped, abused, had failed contraception, she might be a child herself. She might already be a mother and another pregnancy would be fatal.

    Women in these situations know they cannot physically or mentally carry a pregnancy or raise a child.

    A foetus <12 weeks is 2 inches long. It's organs are not fully formed. It doesn't have a fully formed brain. The beating of cardiac cells is part of the biological development. It is not a fully formed beating heart. I do not think a foetus should trump the life of the woman around it.

    Do you think you have the right to tell these women in crisis what is best for them.


  • #5368
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    thee glitz wrote: »
    Ye, criminalising people with DS - that's what pro-lifers stand for... this is beyond contempt and I genuinely feel sad for you. Unless you've any evidence of it of course.

    How about the official position of the PLC regarding pregnant victims of rape and incest, and the fact that under the 8th anyone accessing illegal abortion can face 14 years imprisonment, the very thing (the 8th) the PLC and you wish to keep, is that evidence for you?

    The point was about people with DS.


  • #5369
    thee glitz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    Ave Sodalis wrote: »
    3) 12 weeks was picked due to the high levels of natural miscarriage before this date

    Ye - I saw this before, but it doesn't make any sense.


  • #5370
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    thee glitz wrote: »
    The point was about people with DS.
    And under the 8th they could be criminalised if they or a guardian access abortion for them.


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  • #5371
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    MkaylaK wrote: »
    I'm 18 years old and pro-life. There are certainly some, but definitely not a lot of pro-lifers in my age group.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that I truly believe, that everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I think that discussion of this highly sensitive issue is important to ensure that everyone is fully informed on both sides of the debate, before they make their decision to vote yes or no.

    There is absolutely no need to belittle or disrespect somebody else simply because they have a different view to you. It's important to remain open minded in this debate to make sure that you choose what you believe is the right vote.

    I'd also like to point out that the Catholic Church (or any church) has had no influence on my choice to be pro-life whatsoever. The notion that all pro-lifers are bible worshippers is simply untrue.

    These are some of the reasons that I have chosen to be pro life.
    I cannot justify destroying innocent human life.
    I cannot understand why we would want to end the lives of babies after 12 weeks for conditions such as cleft palette and down syndrome etc.
    I cannot understand what difference there is in a foetus at 11 weeks and 6 days than at 12 weeks and 1 day. Why does the 12 week mark hold such significance?
    At the end of the day, for an abortion to be carried out, a heartbeat has to be deliberately stopped. We know what that is called outside of the womb, so what is the difference inside the womb?
    Remember, the same heart beats in you today as it did when your mother was pregnant with you, the whole way throughout her pregnancy.

    From reading this thread, I know many people will disagree with me and that's ok, but please stay respectful.

    Taking that back to the start, do you believe a just fertilised egg to be a human being with a right to life?


This discussion has been closed.
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