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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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    #1412
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Have you deliberately ignored where i explicitly expressed empathy for either a girl raped, or a girl in tears? You seem to have.
    Its a pity because you're now just repeating yourself.

    A girl in tears certainly does not mean she was raped. There are several reasons that could explain wby a girl is in tears, one of which could be rape. But it isnt evidence of rape. You need to divest yourself of this notion, and stop repeating it enough times in the hope it will make it true in some way.


    It was an asendum to a paragraph where i doubted the lads were top shaggers as they claimed. What is wrong with the logic though, lets tease it out:

    Women enjoys sex with famous sports star?
    Ends up with two of them? Bonus? I know if i pulled a famous sportstar, lets say Anna kourinikova, and in the middle of it on walked Maria Sharapova in her undies id be thrilled.
    Men generally prefer MFF rather than MMF. But hang on, are you saying maybe we're not equal afterall? That a women couldnt enjoy a threesome? Thats a serious contention.

    Roger, you are another spoofer.

    I did not ignore anything you said.

    You said you would have empathy for a girl in tears? I then asked you where in your post (to which I was referring) was there evidence of empathy for this young woman who was in tears....you, thought she should have been happy with the deal she got on the night, which is a repulsive thing to suggest when you consider the state she arrived home in.

    Ignoring the state she was in does not resolve you from revealing that twisted suggestion!

    Your fantasy's have no place in this thread.


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    #1413
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jm08 wrote: »
    I know a young woman while in rooms in college, invited a friend (who she knew through her boyfriend) into her room to watch a movie. He raped her.

    I'd imagine you would think it was her fault for being foolish enough to invite him into her room. She thought no one would believe her, so she never reported it.

    :confused:

    This is a very different scenario and yeah i do feel a huge degree of sympathy for the girl here. She invited him into the room to watch a movie believing they had a purely platonic friendship. There was no key witness to contradict her evidence here but also none to prove this crime. Its a pity she didnt report it because a good prosecuting barrister may have caught him out in court.

    In the Jackson case there was a key witness which completely contradicted the claimants tale of events. My theory in this case is that the girl felt a fool and wanted to save face. Some rape claims are bogus and some are genuine. Thats just the way it goes.


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    #1414
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    meeeeh wrote: »
    You don't have to but use the same standards for yourself as you do for others.

    Oh get off your pedestal.

    This is a discussion board not the Supreme Court.


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    #1415
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    meeeeh wrote: »
    They were rightfully cleared of rape, the evidence just wasn't enough. But your opinion that it was just a threesome she regreted is also pure speculation. Versions of events from all involved were pretty confused so you can only make a conclusion it was just sex she regretted because it's a conclusion that suits certain narrative.

    Dara Florence very detailed testimony is highly indictive of the fact that the accuser could well have been a case that she hugely regretted consenting to what was a very debasing experience for her.

    Dara Florence gave her perception on the basis of the 1 minute or so that she saw.

    It's very possible that she didn't see the reality of what happened.

    However, it doesn't mean that she didn't tell the truth. In that time frame, I probably would have come to the same conclusion, but it doesn't make my perception more accurate.

    You have to remember that Dara Florence also said she 100% saw Jackson having sex with her (which he denied) and she also said she couldn't be sure that the complainant was positively consenting.

    Again, I'm not saying she's lying, but she can't testify as to how the complainant was feeling at that time.

    Everyone has different perceptions of the night, including Dara Florence.


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    #1416
    skearnsot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭skearnsot


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    If I have learned one thing from this whole debacle it’s that far from being an enlightened and forward thinking country when it comes to sexual matters we still seem to be trapped in a 19th century mindset where sex is something a man does to a woman rather than it being a consensual act between two people.

    As a woman this really bothers me - on the one hand my fellow women go on about wanting equality and being seen as strong and liberated and independent yet on the other hand they can’t revert to the victim mentality quick enough when it comes to their interactions with men

    I think it’s time we start acting like the grown women we are and take responsibility for ourselves and our choices. That’s what a truly strong woman does. She doesn’t revert to man hating and acting like a victim to get her way.

    OMG I LOVE YOU!! I’m fed up listening to women like that and I work with a ****load of them! I’m quite happy to be as strong and as independent as is possible but there are times when I just need a male perspective/help/touch etc! The nicest boss Iv ever had is a man!!! Iv no time whatsoever for women’s ......... i dunno what the hell to call it apart from BS


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    #1417
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I'm aware of that. He was acquired of that charge, so apparently it can't explain the tear that required a suture to stop the bleeding. It must have been all the oral sex cos Jackson didn't fist her.

    Why did she go into a room with someone she didn't know? For a snog? Ever done that? And to retrieve a handbag that she left in the room later. Are you actually suggesting that the only reason to enter the room was for sex?


    Im suggesting you should not enter a strangers bedroom because if it does go to court it could make it that bit harder to prove. Common sense.


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    #1418
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    If I have learned one thing from this whole debacle it’s that far from being an enlightened and forward thinking country when it comes to sexual matters we still seem to be trapped in a 19th century mindset where sex is something a man does to a woman rather than it being a consensual act between two people.

    As a woman this really bothers me - on the one hand my fellow women go on about wanting equality and being seen as strong and liberated and independent yet on the other hand they can’t revert to the victim mentality quick enough when it comes to their interactions with men

    I think it’s time we start acting like the grown women we are and take responsibility for ourselves and our choices. That’s what a truly strong woman does. She doesn’t revert to man hating and acting like a victim to get her way.


    Your a breath of fresh air in this world in which dumb people are increasingly trying to suffocate us.


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    #1419
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Dara Florence very detailed testimony is highly indictive of the fact that the accuser could well have been a case that she hugely regretted consenting to what was a very debasing experience for her.

    Dara's version corresponded with neither the accused or the complainant.

    There wasn't enough evidence to convict the accused likewise there's not enough to throw accusations of making false claims at the complaintant.

    They most likely were all so pissed that they didn't know what they were doing ( in terms of consent). Doesn't mean a rape happened, doesn't mean it didn't.


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    #1420
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Im suggesting you should not enter a strangers bedroom because if it does go to court it could make it that bit harder to prove. Common sense.

    I take it you follow your own advice and also don't invite strangers into yours.


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    #1421
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,490 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Francie, which part of the post have I said or even suggested it should have been otherwise?

    Seriously, read it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I've said in it. I haven't said the lads raped her, I haven't said they should have been found guilty. I've simply said that she felt she could have been and the lads were none the wiser.

    I even said you can't convict based off all that.

    Seriously, why do I have to explain myself every single time to you when you simply refuse to read what the post even says?

    Because of your repeatedly slanted posts that make it seem that it was all stacked against the complainant. The prosecution worked just as hard as the defence at their job, but you neglect to mention that, why is that I wonder?


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    #1422
    Sardonicat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,385 ✭✭✭✭Sardonicat


    givyjoe wrote: »
    A careless drunken finger could, or of course paddy could have razors a top of his flaccid penis.

    But no one digitally penetrated her, remember?


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    #1423
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Your a breath of fresh air in this world in which dumb people are increasingly trying to suffocate us.

    That’s very kind of you 😊

    I don’t think I’m doing or saying anything extraordinary - I just don’t like be made out be to a fragile porcelain doll that needs protection from big bad men nor do I relish the idea that men may feel the need to pussyfoot around me for fear of offending me or being accused of doing something they didn’t.


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    #1424
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    skearnsot wrote: »
    OMG I LOVE YOU!! I’m fed up listening to women like that and I work with a ****load of them! I’m quite happy to be as strong and as independent as is possible but there are times when I just need a male perspective/help/touch etc! The nicest boss Iv ever had is a man!!! Iv no time whatsoever for women’s ......... i dunno what the hell to call it apart from BS

    I’d call it a victim mentality and I have no time for it either.


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    #1425
    skearnsot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭skearnsot


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    She was sobbing for the best part of half an hour!!!

    So, unless she had a leg chopped off I think we can rule out soreness.

    If it was humiliation that caused that reaction, then it was some humiliation!!

    There are holes in everyones stories, including Dara Florence.

    What do you think she wasn't able to handle?

    Iv been humiliated by a man when Iv has drink taken - and I sobbed for an hour!!!!! When I sobered up and thought about it the next day I realised what the man had said to me the night before was in fact correct at the time - drink and emotions can be like fire and gasoline


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    #1426
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Youve implied incorrectly as i hope my subsequent post clarified, to which youve responded.
    So was that a withdrawal or a doubling down?

    Or am i still judgmental?

    No you went on a rant about how women can enjoy sex as much as anyone. I actually don't know exactly what you were on about except to imply it has something to do with me having moralistic attitude to sex. It's completely nonsense (about my attitude to sex) and not something I would bother replying to.


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    #1427
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    jm08 wrote: »
    Dara Florence also thought that PJ was having penetrative sex with her which he denied.


    No he denied putting his whole hand inside her but said he penetrated her with his fingers consentsually. See count 2.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/belfast-rape-trial-what-are-the-charges-and-what-must-jury-do-to-reach-verdicts-1.3440548


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    #1428
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    skearnsot wrote: »
    Iv been humiliated by a man when Iv has drink taken - and I sobbed for an hour!!!!! When I sobered up and thought about it the next day I realised what the man had said to me the night before was in fact correct at the time - drink and emotions can be like fire and gasoline

    What?? A man said something, that humiliated you (at least you felt humiliated) and you sobbed for an hour!!! And then the next day you realised he was right? I'm sorry to be asking this, because I think the state that young lady was in is important, I may be placing more importance than I should, but what did he say that was that upsetting?

    Had you had much to drink?


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    #1429
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    What?? A man said something, that humiliated you (at least you felt humiliated) and you sobbed for an hour!!! And then the next day you realised he was right? I'm sorry to asking this, because I think the state that young lady was in is important, I may be placing more importance than I should, but what did he say that was that upsetting?

    Had you had much to drink?
    Why would anyone drink if they cry when drunk. Surely you would make sure not to drink and put yourself in that position.


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    #1430
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,490 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    skearnsot wrote: »
    Iv been humiliated by a man when Iv has drink taken - and I sobbed for an hour!!!!! When I sobered up and thought about it the next day I realised what the man had said to me the night before was in fact correct at the time - drink and emotions can be like fire and gasoline

    I have seen this happen so many times in my 50 or so years. And have taken the wrong end of the stick many times myself only to wise up the next day.

    In and of itself, somebody leaving a drunken party upset is nothing unusual.


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    #1431
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    meeeeh wrote: »
    No you went on a rant about how women can enjoy sex as much as anyone. I actually don't know exactly what you were on about except to imply it has something to do with me having moralistic attitude to sex. It's completely nonsense (about my attitude to sex) and not something I would bother replying to.

    Yet you accuse me of being judgemental!

    Oh the double standards...


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    #1432
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    :confused:

    This is a very different scenario and yeah i do feel a huge degree of sympathy for the girl here. She invited him into the room to watch a movie believing they had a purely platonic friendship. There was no key witness to contradict her evidence here but also none to prove this crime. Its a pity she didnt report it because a good prosecuting barrister may have caught him out in court.

    In the Jackson case there was a key witness which completely contradicted the claimants tale of events. My theory in this case is that the girl felt a fool and wanted to save face. Some rape claims are bogus and some are genuine. Thats just the way it goes.

    One of the other reasons the young woman I know didn't report it was because of the negative effect it would have on her career prospects. She was just finishing in college and was hoping to get a job. The time it would take wouldn't help if she had to take a few months off for the court case.

    Incidentally, there is a good chance that the man involved thought that it was an invitation for sex. All a jury needs is reasonable doubt that the sex was consensual and he gets off.


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    #1433
    skearnsot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭skearnsot


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    What?? A man said something, that humiliated you (at least you felt humiliated) and you sobbed for an hour!!! And then the next day you realised he was right? I'm sorry to be asking this, because I think the state that young lady was in is important, I may be placing more importance than I should, but what did he say that was that upsetting?

    Had you had much to drink?

    Should it matter how much or what he said?


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    #1434
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sardonicat wrote: »
    I take it you follow your own advice and also don't invite strangers into yours.


    Yes even before this case was highlighted the risks of doing so are well and truly real so I certainly am picky about choosing a sexual partner or inviting someone into my home or even going to theirs.

    Ive had ONS's when i was younger and not as wise to the world but even then i would make ensure that my partner was 100% comfortable and safe in the environment but even being the perfect gentleman could land you in bother now.

    My own opinion on this is that the girl went up to that room with the intention of having sex with at least one of the men but ended up consenting to three, was subsequently seen by another woman, feared severe reputational damage and cried rape. That may not be what happened but using my own judgement based on what ive read about the case i would come to that conclusion.


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    #1435
    upandcumming
    Registered Users Posts: 2,716 ✭✭✭upandcumming


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    She was sobbing for the best part of half an hour!!!

    And?


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    #1436
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Faugheen wrote: »
    Francie, which part of the post have I said or even suggested it should have been otherwise?

    Seriously, read it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what I've said in it. I haven't said the lads raped her, I haven't said they should have been found guilty. I've simply said that she felt she could have been and the lads were none the wiser.

    I even said you can't convict based off all that.

    Seriously, why do I have to explain myself every single time to you when you simply refuse to read what the post even says?

    Because of your repeatedly slanted posts that make it seem that it was all stacked against the complainant. The prosecution worked just as hard as the defence at their job, but you neglect to mention that, why is that I wonder?

    Again, point out where I implied any of that in my post?

    Stop telling me what I'm saying, if you're going to, back it up with examples.

    Otherwise, go away.


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    #1437
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    skearnsot wrote: »
    Should it matter how much or what he said?

    I'm only asking, you don't have to answer.

    I mentioned the reason I'm asking, you don't have to help me understand.


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    #1438
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,300 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No he denied putting his whole hand inside her but said he penetrated her with his fingers consentsually. See count 2.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/belfast-rape-trial-what-are-the-charges-and-what-must-jury-do-to-reach-verdicts-1.3440548

    You have not responded to what Dara Florence thought she saw was happening.

    Do you think she is infallible for one part of her testimony and just wrong with that part?


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    #1439
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    I noticed today that I did something different because of this thread. My colleague asked to go for a walk with me today, to a river.

    On the way he asked to stop at his appartment to pick up something. I said, ok, I will wait for you outside. And I did.

    I realise, especially after reading some of the comments on this thread, "she shouldnt have gone to his house" etc., that I am not safe going into a man's appartment, and that I must protect myself.

    That really does say alot. Maybe you shouldnt have gone on a walk if you thought he might be a rapist.
    Faugheen wrote: »
    So she was afraid of her reputation being damaged she decided having a 2 years before a 9 week trial in which she was questioned for 8 days and had her underwear shown in open court was a better idea?

    I’m speculating here. It’s a bit of a wild suggestion of me to make...but maybe, just maybe she wasn’t thinking about a 9 week trial when the accusations were made.
    AudreyHepburn wrote: »
    I never said it was gospel, just that it was something I read.

    I also recall there being texts between the girl and friends where there was talk of her pretending she didn’t know who they were.

    It’s just a bit odd that they’d do that I suppose.

    Thats’s right. Her friend suggested in a text that the complainant should pretend she didn’t know they were rugby players. The complainant knew who PJ was.


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    #1440
    skearnsot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 499 ✭✭skearnsot


    meeeeh wrote: »
    Why would anyone drink if they cry when drunk. Surely you would make sure not to drink and put yourself in that position.

    Oh seriously please - that comment doesn’t even warrant a reply


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    #1441
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,225 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    upandcumming wrote: »
    And?

    And??....she was upset....


This discussion has been closed.
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