Laura Whitmore: 'A man put his hand up my skirt in a nightclub and laughed'

Grayson wrote: »

Thanks.

I do think most women have at some point been subject to verbal or physical harassment
Here's a very broad study done in the US.


https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/2/21/17036438/sexual-harassment-me-too-assault-hollywood

Now that doesn't mean it's the same here. For example US colleges have had huge problems with sexual assaults and especially with covering them up. As far as I'm aware that's not the same here. Still we can assume that a lot of the findings are probably similar. That most women experience some kind of harassment at some stage. that men do to but to a lesser extent. That gay people are more likely to experience than straight and that disabled people are more likely again.

In my early thirties I started asking female friends about this and I was surprised. In work they all knew who the creeps were and knew to avoid them. I thought the guys were ok but never realized the extent of the harassment. There were girls who had dirty messages sent to them. Guys making suggestive comments. One guy went full on stalker and the girl was afraid to tell anyone in case they thought she'd led him on.
Outside of work my female friends told me about all the harassment they'd experienced over their lifetimes. It pretty much started when they hit puberty. I was of course completely oblivious to most of it. Some of it is sexual. Some of it is guys just dismissing them. And it's worse when drink is involved. They tend to just shrug it off because otherwise it'd ruin the night. And it happens often enough that it's not unusual.

It made me realise that women have a completely different experience to men in our society. It's something they grow up with and that I'll never experience.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To be fair, After Hours tends to get very oddball comments regularly with posters probably being far more... outrageous than they would be in real life. At least, I certainly hope so. I would hate to think that many of the posters who make these kinds of comments actually speak or behave that way towards women in real life.

I've always figured After Hours to be the more tongue in cheek side of boards, so I tend be a bit bemused at the expectation of serious debate going on here.



I'm not denying what you've said but to add a bit of perspective as a certain "type" of man. I'm in my early 40s, and single. I was raised in a household of females, and taught to be respectful of women. I was bullied relentlessly in school, which made me very conscious of personal space, and the "lad" mentality that many men seem to love. I never have, and the circle of friends I have don't either. In most encounters with women, I won't touch them without obvious encouragement, and I've been told I'm too "timid" for the initial intimacy in dating or relationship circumstances, with the woman usually pushing for more physical contact themselves. I don't like being rude, or making remarks towards women I don't know or if I don't know their attitude about such things.

I'm not saying this to reinforce the minority defense that most male posters put forward about the harassment (i've used it myself in other threads). I do know other men who are far more forward with their behavior or comments, and I have seen women shy away from them on more than one occasion. I've also seen/heard groups of guys being total assholes towards the women around them.

But... from the men I know personally, they're don't behave that way, and are respectful towards women [when they've been around me.. I don't honestly think they flip behavior away from me]. I don't see this obvious harassment of women by them, when we go out to bars, clubs or other social events like speed-dating or other 'meeting events'.

This is not to say I have the biggest circle of friends or that they represent the majority. I doubt they do. However, I do wonder at the levels of harassment that some women claim, and the "types" of men who are behaving this way.

I do agree with you that it's not acceptable behavior. Personally, I consider it completely out of line, and should be stopped. Alas, even though I am male, I cannot really enforce my values on other men without getting my head smashed in. The men who would be shamed by my pointing out the negative side of such behavior wouldn't be doing it anyway either out of lack of confidence, or simply because they already have a series of values that prevent it. The men who do behave that way are not going to be interested in my opinion on their behavior, except as an insult to them personally.



I think you're still thinking it's the 1960s in Ireland. Irish culture and what is considered acceptable has moved on quite a bit from then. Women have the ear of those in authority regarding what is acceptable behavior from men. Sexual harassment laws have been in the workplace for decades, and has entered the public consciousness. The law is quite clear that harassment of women in pubic or in private is not to be tolerated, and frankly, in most cases, the claim of a woman is believed initially (before an investigation occurs) more than the mans claims. This is easily seen in domestic violence cases or public assault. Even when the woman is the aggressor the male is usually taken in for questioning regardless of the circumstances.

This perception that women will not be believed is a fallacy (or rather is out-of-date), and frankly doesn't help the movement to remove such behavior by men from society. You do need to report the men who are doing the harassment if you actually wish it to stop. Unless you're simply waiting for other women to do it for you, although you've stated that all women know they won't be believed, which suggests that very few women will actually use the law to enforce change.

So, it comes down to complaining amount male behavior in a rather vague way, repeating again and again that it happens more that we expect... but without women to officially report the claims for investigation, there's very little that the law can do to change it.

And relying on "men" to change it won't work either because we don't have any real influence over the kinds of men who behave this way, and the law frowns on male violence... even if many of us were equipped to fight successfully. (which many of us aren't)

Ultimately, suggesting that nobody will believe you or support you in making a claim against harassment, just encourages the harassment to continue, Because you're encouraging other women to stay silent. Complaining online doesn't cut it. Getting media attention isn't going to do more than encourage more laws, that won't change a thing since nobody is asking the law to step in... And without the law to step in, these men are not going to feel any reason to stop...



It might not be an "attack on men" but at the same time we do get to hear about it often both here on boards, but also quite regularly from the media. We're somehow expected to change the behavior of the men who are behaving this way, but the women who are harassed aren't willing to do anything about it themselves.

And for those of us who don't harass women, or play any of these dirty "jokes" on them, we're lumped in with those who do.... but suggesting they're a minority isn't really acceptable. So, how do you really think it's going to change without women reporting these men for the crime of harassment?