The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

amdublin · 13-04-2018 01:42PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I have a question that I'll throw out in here rather than start a new thread.

How do the government plan to administer the abortion pills & how much will it cost ?

I'm aware that GP's are to be given an opt in/out, there's also talk of a 48/72 hour deferral but what happens then.
Will the GP have the 2 pills & require the woman to attend the surgery to administer both ?.
Will the woman get the pills from the GP & take them at home along with her FAQ pamphlet ?.
Will the woman get a script for the tablets which she'll have to bring to a pharmacy ?.
Will Medical Card/Doctor Card holders get everything for free ?
Will everyone else have to pay ?

So many questions, so little time.

I believe the answers are out there. Someone more wise than myself may be here on this forum to answer.

However. Does it matter? Do we need these answered to know how one will vote in the referendum...
(Not sure if you're asking the questions in the context of it changes anything for your voting decision)

horseburger · 13-04-2018 01:43PM

DubInMeath wrote: »

So are videos of executions, and if you posted one of them you'd be banned too.

I've seen a lot of violence in my life, I've been stabbed twice, burnt, punched, kicked, spat on and had a gun put to my head more than once. I've also given as good as I got and have physically hurt the people who did and tried to do these things to me. Thankfully this part of my life is over as I don't work at the same thing anymore.

I've seen people crushed to death and person decapitated in a car smash due to a drunk driver.

No one who has actually experienced or been involved in violent incidents tend to not want to propagate voilence unless they have a mental health problem, or just being maco online. That's why I tend to ignore people who want the death penalty because if they were involved in one they would probably sh1t themselves.

The difference is that abortion is a medical procedure carried out for a number of reasons, all personal in the end, of a foetus, not a living person, while the death penalty is the state ending the life of a living person for a crime of which they can be guilty or not guilty of.

But a foetus is a living human being. If not aborted it will grow and develop as part of its human life cycle, prior to birth and after birth.

No matter what stage his or her life is ended, there is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of human life.

Mary Butler, Fianna Fáil TD, spoke recently in Dáil Éireann, and made an interesting point, expressing concern about the way the word foetus is regularly used as a replacement of other words, that give recognition to the humanity of the life that is ended when aborted is carried out.

The Collins dictionary states that:

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2018 01:47PM

horseburger wrote: »

But it is a living human being. If not aborted it will grow and develop as part of its human life cycle, prior to birth and after birth.

No matter what stage his or her life is ended, there is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of human life.

Mary Butler, Fianna Fáil TD, spoke recently in Dáil Éireann, and made an interesting point, expressing concern about the way the word foetus is regularly used as a replacement of other words, that give recognition to the humanity of the life that is ended when aborted is carried out.

the word foetus is used because that is the correct term.

Annasopra · 13-04-2018 01:49PM

applehunter wrote: »

John McGuirk has played a stormer.

He really hasnt. He has been rude, abrasive, arrogant, dismissive, racist, ageist, trollish.

ELM327 · 13-04-2018 01:49PM

horseburger wrote: »

But a foetus is a living human being. If not aborted it will grow and develop as part of its human life cycle, prior to birth and after birth.

No matter what stage his or her life is ended, there is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the deliberate ending of human life.

Mary Butler, Fianna Fáil TD, spoke recently in Dáil Éireann, and made an interesting point, expressing concern about the way the word foetus is regularly used as a replacement of other words, that give recognition to the humanity of the life that is ended when aborted is carried out.

The Collins dictionary states that:

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

Some politicians are dangerously uninformed.
Foetus is the correct word for something which is developing towards but is not yet a human life. Same as embryo is the stage before, child is the stage after, the foetal stage

ELM327 · 13-04-2018 01:50PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

He really hasnt. He has been rude, abrasive, arrogant, dismissive, racist, ageist, trollish.

Exactly.
He's played a stormer for the repeal side.

#trustourwomen
#repealthe8th

horseburger · 13-04-2018 01:50PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

the word foetus is used because that is the correct term.

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

dudara · 13-04-2018 01:50PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I have a question that I'll throw out in here rather than start a new thread.

How do the government plan to administer the abortion pills & how much will it cost ?

I'm aware that GP's are to be given an opt in/out, there's also talk of a 48/72 hour deferral but what happens then.
Will the GP have the 2 pills & require the woman to attend the surgery to administer both ?.
Will the woman get the pills from the GP & take them at home along with her FAQ pamphlet ?.
Will the woman get a script for the tablets which she'll have to bring to a pharmacy ?.
Will Medical Card/Doctor Card holders get everything for free ?
Will everyone else have to pay ?

So many questions, so little time.

For me, those questions do not impact the vote I am being asked to cast. They are all operational decisions that can be made after the referendum. They are not strategic questions, in the way the referendum question will be.

ELM327 · 13-04-2018 01:52PM

horseburger wrote: »

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

And it is not yet born. The word is correct.
Life legally begins at birth. Except for the 8th amendment.

seamus · 13-04-2018 01:52PM

Shadowstrife wrote: »

I don't think it's true to say that there are no irreligious No voters.

You're right, that's not true to say.

However, there is no irreligious "No" campaign. That's where the energy is coming from. That's who "cares" enough about keeping the eighth to get out on the streets.

And that's worth keeping in mind in terms of the makeup of the campaign. It's literally the church on one side and everyone else on the other.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2018 01:53PM

horseburger wrote: »

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

no you are quite right. up to the age of 10 weeks they are not even a foetus, they are an embryo.

Trasna1 · 13-04-2018 01:55PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Exactly.
He's played a stormer for the repeal side.

#trustourwomen
#repealthe8th

I've already been of the opinion that if you vote a certain way to stick it to a.n. other or a particular group you are just hunting for reasons for your decision

For example, if someone said to me "I'm going to change their vote Yes to get one over on those God botherers" then they were always going to vote Yes. Conversely if someone said they were going to vote change their vote to No to get one over feminazis they were never going to vote the other way. Just looking for justification, and poor justification at that

horseburger · 13-04-2018 01:56PM

ELM327 wrote: »

Some politicians are dangerously uninformed.
Foetus is the correct word for something which is developing towards but is not yet a human life. Same as embryo is the stage before, child is the stage after, the foetal stage

A human foetus is human, unless you think that a pregnancy that results from the union of a male human sperm and female human egg, can result in anything other than human.

It is the human definition that is central to the question about whether it is correct or not to deliberately end human life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization

NuMarvel · 13-04-2018 01:56PM

horseburger wrote: »

Foetus is a stage of human development.

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/foetus

"A foetus is an animal or human being in its later stages of development before it is born".

Nope. The referendum isn't about if women can access abortion. They already do, and nobody, including those on the No side, wants to stops them. It's about how women access abortion. A No vote just means abortions keep happening, and they'll tend to be later and at a higher risk to the woman. On the other hand, a Yes vote at least means abortions will be earlier and safer.

Zubeneschamali · 13-04-2018 01:56PM

horseburger wrote: »

The central question about abortion is whether it is right or wrong to deliberately end a human life.

The central question for the referendum is whether it was right or wrong to try and settle this question in the Constitution back in 1983.

The fact that the amendment compelled the Dail to make abortion legal here for the first time, the exact opposite of its authors intent, is a hint that the answer is "wrong". We should fix that mistake by deleting it.

Then we can move on to what the legislation should say. Feel free to write to your TD on the subject. It seems to me that the prolife crew are dropping the ball here, betting everything on defeating the amendment, and nothing on lobbying for less liberal grounds for abortion after they lose.

Perhaps they plan to just sulk until the euthanasia debate or the transgender toilets debate or whatever the next ireland-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket debate is about.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 01:58PM

ELM327 wrote: »

And it is not yet born. The word is correct.
Life legally begins at birth. Except for the 8th amendment.

Life obviously begins before birth, unless you think that the human growing in the womb is not living for nine months before birth.

Zubeneschamali · 13-04-2018 01:58PM

horseburger wrote: »

A human foetus is human

My appendix is human.

Zubeneschamali · 13-04-2018 01:59PM

horseburger wrote: »

Life obviously begins before birth

Life began somewhere around 4 billion years ago, as far as anyone can tell.

TallGlass · 13-04-2018 02:00PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My appendix is human.

Mines removed! :pac:

horseburger · 13-04-2018 02:01PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The central question for the referendum is whether it was right or wrong to try and settle this question in the Constitution back in 1983.

The fact that the amendment compelled the Dail to make abortion legal here for the first time, the exact opposite of its authors intent, is a hint that the answer is "wrong". We should fix that mistake by deleting it.

Then we can move on to what the legislation should say. Feel free to write to your TD on the subject. It seems to me that the prolife crew are dropping the ball here, betting everything on defeating the amendment, and nothing on lobbying for less liberal grounds for abortion after they lose.

Perhaps they plan to just sulk until the euthanasia debate or the transgender toilets debate or whatever the next ireland-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket debate is about.

The central question obviously is the argument on whether it is acceptable to end a human life, where that human, whose life is being ended, has not given consent to end that life.

In cases of euthanasia, the person dying gives consent.

horseburger · 13-04-2018 02:02PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Life began somewhere around 4 billion years ago, as far as anyone can tell.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

My appendix is human.

Poor attempt at avoiding the issue.

ohnonotgmail · 13-04-2018 02:03PM

horseburger wrote: »

The central question obviously is the argument on whether it is acceptable to end a human life, where that human, whose life is being ended, has not given consent to end that life.

In cases of euthanasia, the person dying gives consent.

so you object to switching off the life support of a person who have not given their consent?

ELM327 · 13-04-2018 02:05PM

Trasna1 wrote: »

I've already been of the opinion that if you vote a certain way to stick it to a.n. other or a particular group you are just hunting for reasons for your decision

For example, if someone said to me "I'm going to change their vote Yes to get one over on those God botherers" then they were always going to vote Yes. Conversely if someone said they were going to vote change their vote to No to get one over feminazis they were never going to vote the other way. Just looking for justification, and poor justification at that

How are things in Nebraska?

horseburger wrote: »

A human foetus is human, unless you think that a pregnancy that results from the union of a male human sperm and female human egg, can result in anything other than human.

It is the human definition that is central to the question about whether it is correct or not to deliberately end human life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_fertilization

It contains human DNA and the potential for life.
As does a frozen ovum.
Should those have more rights than women, too?

horseburger wrote: »

Life obviously begins before birth, unless you think that the human growing in the womb is not living for nine months before birth.

Ah. "Obviously". That's one step before "Fact".
It is potentially a human.

Key word, potentially. You do not even get a death certificate before 22 (AFAIR) weeks as it is not capable of independent life.

gctest50 · 13-04-2018 02:05PM

horseburger wrote: »

Poor attempt at avoiding the issue.

dunno - in your body micro-organisms outnumber human cells 10 to 1

Trasna1 · 13-04-2018 02:06PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The central question for the referendum is whether it was right or wrong to try and settle this question in the Constitution back in 1983.

The fact that the amendment compelled the Dail to make abortion legal here for the first time, the exact opposite of its authors intent, is a hint that the answer is "wrong". We should fix that mistake by deleting it.

Then we can move on to what the legislation should say. Feel free to write to your TD on the subject. It seems to me that the prolife crew are dropping the ball here, betting everything on defeating the amendment, and nothing on lobbying for less liberal grounds for abortion after they lose.

Perhaps they plan to just sulk until the euthanasia debate or the transgender toilets debate or whatever the next ireland-going-to-hell-in-a-handbasket debate is about.

I don't think it's a realistic position to take to say that abortion wouldn't be legal in Ireland if there was no 8th. It's an almost certainty that you would have abortion regime similar to other European states were it not for the 8th by now.

The original 8th campaign mobilised opposition groups to that change and those groups have been sustained by the challenges to the 8th over the years. Had proponents for accessible abortion had been able to wait until the mid 1990s (83 ref forced them to take the issue much sooner than society was ready for at the time) amidst the scandals in the Catholic Church it's likely the opposition to abortion would never have been able to coalesce to a significant pressure group. Getting the 8th passed in 1983 was an extremely clever move by a group who could foresee their influence waning

horseburger · 13-04-2018 02:07PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

Nope. The referendum isn't about if women can access abortion. They already do, and nobody, including those on the No side, wants to stops them. It's about how women access abortion. A No vote just means abortions keep happening, and they'll tend to be later and at a higher risk to the woman. On the other hand, a Yes vote at least means abortions will be earlier and safer.

What you are saying does nothing to alter the main reason why people have difficulty with abortion.

The fundamental issue is whether or not it is justifiable to end a human life.

Anyone who opposes the idea of abortion is not happy with it taking plave anywhere else, so I don't think it can be argued that they are happy for the procedure to be available abroad.

PhoenixParker · 13-04-2018 02:09PM

horseburger wrote: »

The central question obviously is the argument on whether it is acceptable to end a human life, where that human, whose life is being ended, has not given consent to end that life.

In cases of euthanasia, the person dying gives consent.

Am I ending someone's life because I'm not a blood door? A bone marrow door? A kidney door?

Real live humans die because I don't donate my organs, am I killing them? Do they sign the consent form for the removal of my organs?

No, because that's a patently ridiculous idea.

Consent only comes into it when a body is capable of being autonomous. The woman can consent to her womb being inhabited by a baby or she can withdraw that consent.

Hannibal_Smith · 13-04-2018 02:09PM

horseburger wrote: »

The central question obviously is the argument on whether it is acceptable to end a human life, where that human, whose life is being ended, has not given consent to end that life.

In cases of euthanasia, the person dying gives consent.

How would you propose getting a fetus' consent?

horseburger · 13-04-2018 02:10PM

ELM327 wrote: »

How are things in Nebraska?

It contains human DNA and the potential for life.
As does a frozen ovum.
Should those have more rights than women, too?

Ah. "Obviously". That's one step before "Fact".
It is potentially a human.

Key word, potentially. You do not even get a death certificate before 22 (AFAIR) weeks as it is not capable of independent life.

What do you think it is - considering it has been created as a result of the union of a human egg and human sperm - if you think it isn't human?

Zubeneschamali · 13-04-2018 02:11PM

horseburger wrote: »

Anyone who opposes the idea of abortion is not happy with it taking plave anywhere else, so I don't think it can be argued that they are happy for the procedure to be available abroad.

The 13th amendment passed by 1,035,308 votes to 624,000.

The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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