Sexual assualt list posted in boys toilet in Cork school

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 13-04-2018 10:45AM

Huntergonzo wrote: »

Personally you would be fuming if it was your own daughter or sister etc that was mentioned on such a distasteful list and the ringleaders unquestionably should be punished but I'm not sure how this story makes national news. I heard it on Newstalk, which are an overtly anti-male station so I certainly wouldn't trust their coverage of it, or most media outlets for that matter, simply due to their general dishonesty.

Let the school and guards (if necessary), deal with it, they're best placed to do so.

I think it's made national news because the Belfast rape trial has opened up a conversation about young men and the way they speak about and view women, and the need to educate young people to be respectful and responsible when it comes to sexual behaviour.

valoren · 13-04-2018 11:08AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

10 things you won't believe were scribbled in toilet cubicles!

#7 will SHOCK you.

Shadowstrife · 13-04-2018 11:29AM

The internet is a cesspit of emboldening attitudes that kids feed off.

The Trump phenomenon- if the top dog living at 1600 Penn can say brutal stuff about women, then...

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 11:34AM

Cayden Tasty Peppercorn wrote: »

I think it's made national news because the Belfast rape trial has opened up a conversation about young men and the way they speak about and view women, and the need to educate young people to be respectful and responsible when it comes to sexual behaviour.

I think you’re right that it’s in the public’s mind because of the Belfast trial. I also think it’s sensible to treat sex education as a health issue and teach small children about relationships and sex.

But the main thing to keep
In mind is that young lads grow up and cop on. This isn’t necessarily a big problem and it’s not necessarily that far out of the norm.

The young lads need a serious talking to, but I wouldn’t want their identities known or their lives impacted by this. They’ll probably grow up onto normal lads.

Shadowstrife · 13-04-2018 11:37AM

It is also possible that the little dick did this as a blatant act of trolling for the lulz.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 11:40AM

Shadowstrife wrote: »

It is also possible that the little dick did this as a blatant act of trolling for the lulz.

That’s Almost certainly what it is which again is fairly harmless even if inappropriate. To lots of young lads inappropriate = hilarious.

conorhal · 13-04-2018 11:42AM

Cayden Tasty Peppercorn wrote: »

I think it's made national news because the Belfast rape trial has opened up a conversation about young men and the way they speak about and view women, and the need to educate young people to be respectful and responsible when it comes to sexual behaviour.

It happened because of the national media's (bordering on neurotic) obsession with the Belfast case, and because some teenage boy eager to appear 'edgy and transgressive' and ,cognisant of the controversy, thought it would cause a stir. Because young teens love challenging authority and pushing boundaries.

I can think of several examples of such behaviour when I was in secondary school.
Some student on more than one occasion called in a bomb threat (hilarious I know!) Nobody ever found out who it was.

Before a class, 4 pupils wrote '_____ has no tits' on the blackboard.
This was far more horrible then you might think given that the teacher about who it was written had returned after treatment for breast cancer.

Not one of the four 'mad lads' had the sack to actually write that declaration themselves so they agreed to write one word each, I suppose in some misguided belief that simply having written one word each, "I only wrote the word, has" constituted some kind of defence (spoiler: It didn't). The rest of the class sat in rapt fascination waiting to see what would happen next when the teacher walked in.

Kids are little $h1ts.

oceanman · 13-04-2018 11:46AM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think you’re right that it’s in the public’s mind because of the Belfast trial. I also think it’s sensible to treat sex education as a health issue and teach small children about relationships and sex.

But the main thing to keep
In mind is that young lads grow up and cop on. This isn’t necessarily a big problem and it’s not necessarily that far out of the norm.

The young lads need a serious talking to, but I wouldn’t want their identities known or their lives impacted by this. They’ll probably grow up onto normal lads.

I thinks you are right, all young lads have crazy dark things going on in their minds, 90% of them grow up to be normal, the other 10% go on to be weirdos, that's life...

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 11:50AM

oceanman wrote: »

I thinks you are right, all young lads have crazy dark things going on in their minds, 90% of them grow up to be normal, the other 10% go on to be weirdos, that's life...

I agree. That doesn’t mean those young lads shouldn’t be coached and mentored. Teaching about sex and consent etc is very important.

But young lads will push boundaries and I can understand how people would be shocked. That’s the objective of pushing boundaries.

PucaMama · 13-04-2018 11:54AM

fleet_admiral wrote: »

Girls in a private south Dublin school did a similar list years ago but it wasn't covered in the media even though it was common knowledge.
The most popular boys were the ones who received the most attention from the girls that Friday night at a teenage disco

You don’t see a difference?

Christy42 · 13-04-2018 12:00PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I agree. That doesn’t mean those young lads shouldn’t be coached and mentored. Teaching about sex and consent etc is very important.

But young lads will push boundaries and I can understand how people would be shocked. That’s the objective of pushing boundaries.

Indeed this should be used to show boundaries are there and as a teaching point.

Saying boys will be boys will just have them looking for the boundary further out.

Shadowstrife · 13-04-2018 12:12PM

A few days ago, I heard a priest on Newstalk give his opinions on new sex/consent education in schools.

There were more contradictions in his reasoning than a Michael Bay movie plot.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 12:19PM

Christy42 wrote: »

Indeed this should be used to show boundaries are there and as a teaching point.

Saying boys will be boys will just have them looking for the boundary further out.

Yes. They should get a serious talking to. I don’t think it’s good behaviour but it’s also not a sign of a true deviant who’s going to actually rape someone in the future. It’s probably just young lads acting the maggot

Grayson · 13-04-2018 12:22PM

Cayden Tasty Peppercorn wrote: »

I think it's made national news because the Belfast rape trial has opened up a conversation about young men and the way they speak about and view women, and the need to educate young people to be respectful and responsible when it comes to sexual behaviour.

I think it's part of a wider conversation that started even before that.

Still, even a few years ago if someone found a rape list in a school toilet it probably would have made the news.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 12:23PM

Shadowstrife wrote: »

A few days ago, I heard a priest on Newstalk give his opinions on new sex/consent education in schools.

There were more contradictions in his reasoning than a Michael Bay movie plot.

Really and truly the religious should be allowed to teach their interpretation of sex and morality, but children should also be taught the full facts. That should include the biology, health, reproduction, intimacy, pleasure, sexual orientation, consent, and potential for harm.

Religious people can give their take too but all the facts should be discussed without prejudice

Grayson · 13-04-2018 12:27PM

Shadowstrife wrote: »

It is also possible that the little dick did this as a blatant act of trolling for the lulz.

True. It could be a kid who thought it was a bit of a laugh and didn't think of the consequences. I'm sure some of the girls mentioned laughed it off however some were probably a bit scared/worried.

And if you were the parent of the girls you'd be freaked out a bit.

I read a story about a woman who received threats for over a year. They came from leads of anonymous accounts and they were about rape and murder. Eventually she tracked it down and it was her friends teenage son. He was ashamed when he was found out and he'd done it because it was kind of edgy and exciting and he was bored.

It's entirely likely that the kid who did this thought was was funny or a bit edgy. But that doesn't lessen the seriousness of it ot the impact it has on the girls involved.

Christy42 · 13-04-2018 12:27PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Yes. They should get a serious talking to. I don’t think it’s good behaviour but it’s also not a sign of a true deviant who’s going to actually rape someone in the future. It’s probably just young lads acting the maggot

No but it is a rape threat whether or not they intended on following through. A slap in the wrist is not a boundary. They will simply laugh and carry on as they were.

Acting the maggot has real world consequences whether intended or not. I mean would bet yourself on it being wrong if you were in that list or a close relative? They need to learn that there are real world consequences to actions.

They likely freaked out the parents of those girls and probably worried some of the girls themselves. That is not OK. Rape threats are serious whether or not they were designed to just be "edgy" and deserve to be treated as such.

Grayson · 13-04-2018 12:28PM

Shadowstrife wrote: »

There were more contradictions in his reasoning than a Michael Bay movie plot.

I take offense at that. I like michael bay's early stuff

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 12:31PM

Christy42 wrote: »

No but it is a rape threat whether or not they intended on following through. A slap in the wrist is not a boundary. They will simply laugh and carry on as they were.

Acting the maggot has real world consequences whether intended or not. I mean would bet yourself on it being wrong if you were in that list or a close relative? They need to learn that there are real world consequences to actions.

I suggested a serious talking to, coaching and mentoring. Along with open and honest discussion of sex and sexuality.

What would you suggest?

wexie · 13-04-2018 01:02PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suggested a serious talking to, coaching and mentoring. Along with open and honest discussion of sex and sexuality.

What would you suggest?

Good question, and I'm not sure to be honest.

Seems expulsion, which could have some pretty serious and long lasting consequences for them, might be a bit heavy handed.

Having said that, I have 2 daughters and if this had happened in their school I'd be looking for some pretty serious assurances that this would be dealt with in a very serious way. I certainly wouldn't be happy with it all being dealt with 'in-house' ie. the serious talking, mentoring and coaching to be done not just by the teachers.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-04-2018 01:22PM

wexie wrote: »

Good question, and I'm not sure to be honest.

Seems expulsion, which could have some pretty serious and long lasting consequences for them, might be a bit heavy handed.

Having said that, I have 2 daughters and if this had happened in their school I'd be looking for some pretty serious assurances that this would be dealt with in a very serious way. I certainly wouldn't be happy with it all being dealt with 'in-house' ie. the serious talking, mentoring and coaching to be done not just by the teachers.

I really don;t see what expulsion achieves, to be honest. If you're going to teach them a lesson, then teach them. If you're going to expel them, they'll just do it somewhere else.

Christy42 · 13-04-2018 01:33PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I suggested a serious talking to, coaching and mentoring. Along with open and honest discussion of sex and sexuality.

What would you suggest?

The open and honest discussions should be for all students. I mean seriously students get heavier punishments than a dang stern talking to for leaving their homework at home ffs.

A stern talking to will be laughed at and I am not sure the schools all have resources to be mentoring those who step out of line. If they did there are other things that need money as well.

Yeah if I was one affected I would assurances it was being dealt with. Honestly expulsion might be harsh but I would be looking at or a similar level of punishment if that has too much of an affect on their futures. They can learn that actions have consequences and not just of your bad someone will have a chat. If anything happened a second time it would absolutely be expulsion no question.

Seriously students were threatened here. That is a big deal.

c68zapdsm5i1ru · 13-04-2018 01:34PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I really don;t see what expulsion achieves, to be honest. If you're going to teach them a lesson, then teach them. If you're going to expel them, they'll just do it somewhere else.

I suppose it depends on the boys' behaviour record in general, but sometimes expulsion can send a short sharp message to not only the culprits, but to the other kids in the school about what kind of behaviour is deemed totally unacceptable. And if there has been slack or lazy parenting involved, it might give those parents a kick up the arse as well.

I think it's too hard to expel kids nowadays, to be honest, so some obnoxious brats just keep on and on causing trouble, parents keep on and on defending them or turning a blind eye, and the school are helpless to stop it.

El_Duderino 09 · 13-04-2018 01:34PM

wexie wrote: »

Good question, and I'm not sure to be honest.

Seems expulsion, which could have some pretty serious and long lasting consequences for them, might be a bit heavy handed.

Having said that, I have 2 daughters and if this had happened in their school I'd be looking for some pretty serious assurances that this would be dealt with in a very serious way. I certainly wouldn't be happy with it all being dealt with 'in-house' ie. the serious talking, mentoring and coaching to be done not just by the teachers.

I think expulsion would be appropriate if the child was a serious risk and couldn’t be helped. But this case involves young lads who are in the process of growing up. Also, shocking as it may be, this kind of thing isn’t actually that far outside the norm.

That must be shocking for a parent to hear, but speaking as a former young lad, it’s actually not really that unusual to hear horrible banter like that. I’d dread to think back to the things we used to say.

Clerical sex abuse and homosexuality were hot topics in my day so that’s where the banter tended to go.

I don’t know what kind of external services there are. The last thing I would want to do is mark theses lads out as deviants. But you also want to make sure you get the point across.

I listened to a podcast with Richy Sadler who was a former footballer for milwall and Ireland. He talks to transition year students and facilitated serious discussions about arc and sexuality. Sounds like a great idea. The podcast was on Second Captains and was in light of the Belfast case. Well with a listen.

Christy42 · 13-04-2018 01:43PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think expulsion would be appropriate if the child was a serious risk and couldn’t be helped. But this case involves young lads who are in the process of growing up. Also, shocking as it may be, this kind of thing isn’t actually that far outside the norm.

That must be shocking for a parent to hear, but speaking as a former young lad, it’s actually not really that unusual to hear horrible banter like that. I’d dread to think back to the things we used to say.

Clerical sex abuse and homosexuality were hot topics in my day so that’s where the banter tended to go.

I don’t know what kind of external services there are. The last thing I would want to do is mark theses lads out as deviants. But you also want to make sure you get the point across.

I listened to a podcast with Richy Sadler who was a former footballer for milwall and Ireland. He talks to transition year students and facilitated serious discussions about arc and sexuality. Sounds like a great idea. The podcast was on Second Captains and was in light of the Belfast case. Well with a listen.

I agree that conversations that are open are a great idea as a default. We really are lacking in the area of sexual education.

Kids will frequently cross boundary's it is what they do. Still they need to prevented from harming others. Physically or otherwise and learn to think of others. I know plenty of the conversations you mention but I also know people who were severely hurt by them.

You mention that it is a tough time growing up and all that but remember here the victims are the same age and it is a horrible time to feel isolated or under threat at a place you have to go to frequently (not that there is a great time). Ensuring they felt OK would be my first concern and then deal with teaching whoever did it that is not how you should behave.

Neyite · 13-04-2018 02:06PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That’s Almost certainly what it is which again is fairly harmless even if inappropriate. To lots of young lads inappropriate = hilarious.

The problem is that there's always one eejit who takes the 'joke' too far. The rest of them know it's a joke. The rest of them know they aren't actually going to rape anyone. But there's always one gobsh!te who crosses the line and gets the lot of them into trouble.

Supposedly it's not the first list in that school but the previous ones were just played down my management as inappropriate jokes and nothing done about them. Perhaps it took going to the media or the Gardai by a parent to get the school to treat it with the concern it deserves.

Grayson · 13-04-2018 02:15PM

Christy42 wrote: »

I agree that conversations that are open are a great idea as a default. We really are lacking in the area of sexual education.

Kids will frequently cross boundary's it is what they do. Still they need to prevented from harming others. Physically or otherwise and learn to think of others. I know plenty of the conversations you mention but I also know people who were severely hurt by them.

The thing is that without the conversation they might not even know where those boundaries are. Kids aren't as stupid as adults tend to think they are, however it's also a mistake to assume they know certain things.

We need them to have conversations about consent and what is acceptable language to use. They need to be involved in discussions about why it's unacceptable. It's not just good enough to tell them certain language is bad. that would be censorship. They need to be educated in how to determine what effect their language might have.

joey100 · 13-04-2018 02:16PM

I work with young lads from 10-21, all from what would be considered disadvantaged areas, most early school leavers or in trouble with the Guards. I've worked in this area for around 14 years now and this would not be the norm. I work with them in many settings and have done sex education type programmes with them. Young lads that age want to shock and will try to shock but we have never come across something like this, and they would be fairly open with us about what they are up to and what's going on in their lives.

I don't think it's fair to the big majority of young men around that age to say this is what goes on with young men that age, it doesn't, this is very very far removed from it and if one of the young men I was working with was saying stuff like this or writing lists like this I'd have big concerns.

goose2005 · 13-04-2018 02:19PM

Shadowstrife wrote: »

A few days ago, I heard a priest on Newstalk give his opinions on new sex/consent education in schools.

There were more contradictions in his reasoning than a Michael Bay movie plot.

goose2005 · 13-04-2018 02:22PM

Grayson wrote: »

True. It could be a kid who thought it was a bit of a laugh and didn't think of the consequences. I'm sure some of the girls mentioned laughed it off however some were probably a bit scared/worried.

And if you were the parent of the girls you'd be freaked out a bit.

I read a story about a woman who received threats for over a year. They came from leads of anonymous accounts and they were about rape and murder. Eventually she tracked it down and it was her friends teenage son. He was ashamed when he was found out and he'd done it because it was kind of edgy and exciting and he was bored.

It's entirely likely that the kid who did this thought was was funny or a bit edgy. But that doesn't lessen the seriousness of it ot the impact it has on the girls involved.

Is that the Leo Traynor story? Much of that was invented and the writer disappeared soon after.
https://graunwatch.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/why-leo-traynors-troll-story-is-almost-certainly-a-lie-by-resistradio/
http://paulclarke.com/honestlyreal/2012/10/for-whom-the-bell-trolls/
http://skepchick.org/2012/10/leo-traynor-anti-semitism-and-the-sticky-problem-of-facts/

Sexual assualt list posted in boys toilet in Cork school

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