Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Hands Like Flippers · 12-04-2018 08:37PM

What of CG in all of this?

bilston · 12-04-2018 10:34PM

Some chat on Leisterfans that he IRFU have made a decision and will announce it on Saturday.

I suspect today's intervention from the Bank of Ireland has done for Jackson and Olding. Not sure about Gilroy.

Dave_The_Sheep · 12-04-2018 10:52PM

bilston wrote: »

Some chat on Leisterfans that he IRFU have made a decision and will announce it on Saturday.

I suspect today's intervention from the Bank of Ireland has done for Jackson and Olding. Not sure about Gilroy.

It makes their decision simpler, if nothing else.

bilston · 12-04-2018 11:00PM

If, as seems increasingly likely, that Jackson is a goner, what do Ulster do about the 10 position?

Stick with McPhillips (if he stays)?
Try and sign an IQ out half from somewhere?
Try and sign a NIQ 10 a year out from the World Cup?

What is sometimes is forgotten is that we won't just be losing our first choice 10, but arguably our second choice 10 as well.

errlloyd · 13-04-2018 12:14AM

bilston wrote: »

If, as seems increasingly likely, that Jackson is a goner, what do Ulster do about the 10 position?

Stick with McPhillips (if he stays)?
Try and sign an IQ out half from somewhere?
Try and sign a NIQ 10 a year out from the World Cup?

What is sometimes is forgotten is that we won't just be losing our first choice 10, but arguably our second choice 10 as well.

Someone on reddit posted that McPhilips was off back to Newcastle. Then there is always that rumour that links Bristol with Jackson and a swap for Madigan. On the one hand Madigan is ****e behind a losing back, on the other hand I think he'd be good with a scrum half doing much of the thinking and him just doing. Cooney does bring you that.

A loan for one of the Leinster men could be mutually beneficial. Just that they've all got very good minutes this year despite being all mostly fit. If you don't qualify for the Cup, what can you offer Ross Byrne (for example) that Leinster can't. All he's not getting is much starting CC gametime.

Burkie1203 · 13-04-2018 06:15AM

bilston wrote: »

Some chat on Leisterfans that he IRFU have made a decision and will announce it on Saturday.

I suspect today's intervention from the Bank of Ireland has done for Jackson and Olding. Not sure about Gilroy.

I wonder if BoI made their feelings known to IRFU in private 2 weeks ago hence the Gilroy review?

bilston · 13-04-2018 07:13AM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

bilston wrote: »

Some chat on Leisterfans that he IRFU have made a decision and will announce it on Saturday.

I suspect today's intervention from the Bank of Ireland has done for Jackson and Olding. Not sure about Gilroy.

I wonder if BoI made their feelings known to IRFU in private 2 weeks ago hence the Gilroy review?

Gilroy is collateral damage to the trial.

bilston · 13-04-2018 07:19AM

launish116 wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNmiC-mtimk

He speaks well for a 19 year old.

He seems to have 3 accents. A bit of Aussie, a bit of Dublin/Drogheda and a developing drony Belfast accent.

If he develops his scrummaging ability he will be a real keeper for Ulster.

Utah_Saint · 13-04-2018 08:43AM

According to the rep from Belfast Feminists network on U105 this morning....there is a Rape and Misogyny culture in rugby.

Buer · 13-04-2018 08:44AM

CatFromHue wrote: »

Tom O'Toole, now there's a good irish name.

Only be bettered if his middle name is Finbar

Timmy. Had a rough epsidoe as a child involving a well.

The Black Stags · 13-04-2018 08:53AM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

According to the rep from Belfast Feminists network on U105 this morning....there is a Rape and Misogyny culture in rugby.

Of course, they will never be happy. Doesn't matter if PJ and SO never play again for Ulster. They've made up their minds and will still attack Ulster Rugby.

thomond2006 · 13-04-2018 08:55AM

Buer wrote: »

Timmy. Had a rough epsidoe as a child involving a well.

There's a hole in my heart
As deep as a well
For that poor little boy
Who's stuck halfway to Hell.

Though we can't get him out
We'll do the next best thing.

We go on TV and sing, sing, sing.

And we're sending our love down the well.
All the way down.
We're sending our love down the well.
Down that well.

stephen_n · 13-04-2018 09:03AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

There's a hole in my heart
As deep as a well
For that poor little boy
Who's stuck halfway to Hell.

Though we can't get him out
We'll do the next best thing.

We go on TV and sing, sing, sing.

And we're sending our love down the well.
All the way down.
We're sending our love down the well.
Down that well.

Is that a metaphor for Ulster Rugby? You’re very cruel!

errlloyd · 13-04-2018 09:04AM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Of course, they will never be happy. Doesn't matter if PJ and SO never play again for Ulster. They've made up their minds and will still attack Ulster Rugby.

I mean I presume she just logged on to boards, reddit or the comments section of any rugby focused facebook page and saw a significant amount of people saying "this is no worse than the stuff we all put in our whatsapp groups".

Which is true. The number one thing googled by android using older rugby club members is how to stop whatsapp pictures appearing in the camera roll. (I just made this up, but I am sure there is some semblance of truth to it).

Utah_Saint · 13-04-2018 09:05AM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Utah_Saint wrote: »

According to the rep from Belfast Feminists network on U105 this morning....there is a Rape and Misogyny culture in rugby.

Of course, they will never be happy. Doesn't matter if PJ and SO never play again for Ulster. They've made up their minds and will still attack Ulster Rugby.

She also believes they will be well received by Ulster fans at the match tonight....

I wish they would just admit that they are furious PJ and SO were acquitted of all charges and they won't be happy until they have destroyed their lives.
I spoke to an acquaintance who plays for a local sports team. He's not a follower of rugby but obviously saw all the headlines. he said the msgs the rugby guys sent was PG-13 compared to his team Whatsapp.
I also find it entertaining that woman at the centre of the trial also used less than flattering terms to describe other woman at the party that night, but sure that's ok...
Hopefully the Ulster Supports Club have checked that this group have filled out all necessary forms for this Protest/March

CommandoJack · 13-04-2018 09:22AM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

...
Hopefully the Ulster Supports Club have checked that this group have filled out all necessary forms for this Protest/March

The PSNI have issued a statement saying they're aware of the protest etc, so it's likely gone through the legitimate channels. That said, our law in this area is heavily nuanced and if they're even one small step out of line the PSNI will send them on their way.

The Black Stags · 13-04-2018 09:28AM

Utah_Saint wrote: »

The Black Stags wrote: »

Utah_Saint wrote: »

According to the rep from Belfast Feminists network on U105 this morning....there is a Rape and Misogyny culture in rugby.

Of course, they will never be happy. Doesn't matter if PJ and SO never play again for Ulster. They've made up their minds and will still attack Ulster Rugby.

She also believes they will be well received by Ulster fans at the match tonight....

I wish they would just admit that they are furious PJ and SO were acquitted of all charges and they won't be happy until they have destroyed their lives.
I spoke to an acquaintance who plays for a local sports team. He's not a follower of rugby but obviously saw all the headlines. he said the msgs the rugby guys sent was PG-13 compared to his team Whatsapp.
I also find it entertaining that woman at the centre of the trail also used less than flattering terms to describe other woman at the party that night, but sure that's ok...
Hopefully the Ulster Supports Club have checked that this group have filled out all necessary forms for this Protest/March

Yes but to the people we are dealing with - women can do no wrong and should never ever be criticized.
They are activists full of rage, fueled by their echo chamber social groups with no creative or constructive place to put their built up energy. Destroying is the only outlet for them and now that they have a target all of their energy is going to be spent destroying it. Writing to sponsors, sending threats of ending their season tickets (when they don't have one and have never been to a rugby match). Marches, protests etc etc.
But watch now as they widen the accusations - this isn't about those two players anymore they want to use this stick to beat 'rugby culture' now.

errlloyd · 13-04-2018 10:05AM

The Black Stags wrote: »

They are activists full of rage, fueled by their echo chamber social groups with no creative or constructive place to put their built up energy.

I don't know who you think "They Are" - but I would consider myself a feminist and pretty much agree with all "their" viewpoints - and I am not full of rage, fueled only by an echo chamber with no creative place to put my energy.

Pretty much every viewpoint has vocal people on the fringes, and it isn't helpful to dialogue if you presume those people are representatives of the whole.

13-04-2018 10:17AM

I am a feminist in that I believe that gender has nothing to do with how anyone should be treated and looked upon by the law. There should be zero provisions made in law to promote or facilitate discrimination based upon gender (et al). That we all have equal rights and responsibilities, and that we should never seek to promote any one gender/creed/race/etc/etc/etc above another.

I am not an Identitarian-esque 'feminist' however who sees a gender-war where none exists. Where each and every problem in society can be traced back to a patriarchal society which much be disabused. Where cherry picking of data to confirm my preconceptions is not just normal, but encouraged.

Both of the above people call themselves feminists. Both of the above people exist. However one of the groups will provide far more proportionally to any of these protests / examples of activism.

Saying that, it is important not to let the few rotten apples spoil the bunch. Or in this case, careful not to assume that the over-eager/zealots lead the way.

13-04-2018 10:24AM

The Black Stags wrote: »

Yes but to the people we are dealing with - women can do no wrong and should never ever be criticized.
They are activists full of rage, fueled by their echo chamber social groups with no creative or constructive place to put their built up energy. Destroying is the only outlet for them and now that they have a target all of their energy is going to be spent destroying it. Writing to sponsors, sending threats of ending their season tickets (when they don't have one and have never been to a rugby match). Marches, protests etc etc.
But watch now as they widen the accusations - this isn't about those two players anymore they want to use this stick to beat 'rugby culture' now.

I dunno, I think you are going a bit OTT in the other direction here to be honest. There are people like you are describing above and they are the loudest for sure, but there are a lot of moderate reasonable people who are ok with the verdict and understand why it was reached but similarly are aghast at the commentary within that group.

I'd say if you go back through the messages in that whatsapp group you will see the same disrespect and extreme commentary repeated over and over again. Some of it will be directed at women, most of it will be directed at each other. Those groups are rife with one up-manship and who can be the most extreme. I saw it first hand last year on a weekend trip away and whilst I don't appreciate the kissing and telling aspect the rest of the stuff whilst occasionally quite dark was relatively harmless. Certainly not indicative of how that group of people (only some of whom I knew) treated those around them.

The are two parts of the reaction to the trial that really bother me. The protests would never have happened if the defendants were found guilty and the courts system here is already ahead of the north in terms of how we manage these cases. Anger at a verdict is fine but this verdict was extremely predictable, not because of the nature of the offence but because of the nature of the evidence and the testimony of a key independent witness. We were one half of a tweet away from Aodhan O'Riordan being the face and driver for reactive legislation to get his career back on track. Thankfully he showed his character before he had the opportunity to capitalise and whilst we should always be looking to improve our laws, fuelling misguided anger into politically opportunistic legislation has never worked out well for anyone.

The other issue I have is that now all of rugby is being labelled as misogynist. I don't have an issue with conversations around consent, gender stereotypes and respect but let's do that as a society, don't make it out to be a rugby problem when it's not one. It's a problem within rugby no less than it's a problem within society.

Former Former · 13-04-2018 10:56AM

I agree that this isn't a 'rugby' problem. However, it has very much manifested itself in a rugby environment.

So if the people in authority in that rugby environment are seen to be doing nothing about it, that will be seen as a microcosm of society as a whole and it's why you have people who have otherwise no interest in rugby suddenly taking a keen interest in what IRFU do next.

If IRFU fail to take a firm line on what a lot of people consider to be unacceptable behaviour, then I don't know where it will end up, but a protest at Ravenhill before a mid-range Pro14 game will be the least of our worries.

irishbucsfan · 13-04-2018 11:01AM

It is perceived as a rugby problem. That's what's absolutely key. Recent events have done absolutely nothing to dispel that perception, and the reaction from rugby people to this issue has done even less (cheers Willie John). People who work within the game have to live with that perception and the effect that decisions taken by the IRFU have on that perception. I think certain members of the URSC may not ever be willing to consider that.

13-04-2018 11:24AM

Former Former wrote: »

I agree that this isn't a 'rugby' problem. However, it has very much manifested itself in a rugby environment.

So if the people in authority in that rugby environment are seen to be doing nothing about it, that will be seen as a microcosm of society as a whole and it's why you have people who have otherwise no interest in rugby suddenly taking a keen interest in what IRFU do next.

If IRFU fail to take a firm line on what a lot of people consider to be unacceptable behaviour, then I don't know where it will end up, but a protest at Ravenhill before a mid-range Pro14 game will be the least of our worries.

It's amplified in certain environments. I honestly think coming straight out of school into a pro setup just invites people not to mature. Some guys will take to professionalism like adults, some however will carry on like they are still in school and fail to mature like they would outside the setup because everything is provided for them.

As for the IRFU taking a line on unacceptable behaviour, the players will be gone and they will make a statement about behaviour moving forward but it will be purely optics. They have no reach into players bedrooms or private chat groups. They have no reach into players minds and no control over how they think.

Would any of us really want them to have any of those things either?

Former Former · 13-04-2018 11:28AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's amplified in certain environments. I honestly think coming straight out of school into a pro setup just invites people not to mature. Some guys will take to professionalism like adults, some however will carry on like they are still in school and fail to mature like they would outside the setup because everything is provided for them.

As for the IRFU taking a line on unacceptable behaviour, the players will be gone and they will make a statement about behaviour moving forward but it will be purely optics. They have no reach into players bedrooms or private chat groups. They have no reach into players minds and no control over how they think.

Would any of us really want them to have any of those things either?

Yes, they will.

If young players coming through see that two pretty senior players have been shipped off to exile for what went on in their bedrooms, then I would really, really hope that it would sink in with others that they need to be more cognisant of their role as public figures and modify their behaviour accordingly.

I would also expect that whatever clauses are in the standard IRFU contract about off-field conduct will be reviewed and strengthened too.

Whether these are "good" developments, I'm not sure.

13-04-2018 12:14PM

Former Former wrote: »

Yes, they will.

If young players coming through see that two pretty senior players have been shipped off to exile for what went on in their bedrooms, then I would really, really hope that it would sink in with others that they need to be more cognisant of their role as public figures and modify their behaviour accordingly.

I would also expect that whatever clauses are in the standard IRFU contract about off-field conduct will be reviewed and strengthened too.

Whether these are "good" developments, I'm not sure.

I've no doubt that this will become a cautionary tale for the ages, for both genders and for very different reasons.

I very much doubt this is the last threesome involving a professional rugby player.

$ausage$ · 13-04-2018 12:50PM

Sorry to bring this back to rugby but......

I hear the names mentioned for interview where false. The only name I have heard is Andy Friend who has been interviewed.

bilston · 13-04-2018 12:58PM

$ausage$ wrote: »

Sorry to bring this back to rugby but......

I hear the names mentioned for interview where false. The only name I have heard is Andy Friend who has been interviewed.

Who is Andy Friend?

Actually I'll go and google him and them come back on here and pretend I knew who he was all along...

$ausage$ · 13-04-2018 12:59PM

bilston wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

Sorry to bring this back to rugby but......

I hear the names mentioned for interview where false. The only name I have heard is Andy Friend who has been interviewed.

Who is Andy Friend?

EXACTLY!!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Friend

errlloyd · 13-04-2018 01:03PM

Do Ulster need a good coach, or do Ulster just need a dedicated hard ass?

A Michael Cheika in 2005 type signing.

irishbucsfan · 13-04-2018 01:09PM

bilston wrote: »

Who is Andy Friend?

Actually I'll go and google him and them come back on here and pretend I knew who he was all along...

I just did that.

And while doing it I realised he must have been the outgoing coach for the Aussie 7s. You might have heard that their captain got attacked on a night out recently, it was actually the leaving party for their coach, who I guess is Andy Friend. By some accounts that coach chased down the assailant.

So if he has past experience of looking after players after nights out...

Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

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