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Belfast rape trial discussion thread II

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    #242
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Who carries out 'slutty' behaviour?
    I don't know you tell me.


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    #243
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    givyjoe wrote: »
    Since when are you concerned with that being unfair? Of course what the poster means is that you cant possibly know which men, of the incredibly small proportion of men who rape, from the ones who do. They tend not to wear signs. But you knew that before twisting the posters words.

    Why do you think I am not concerned with fairness?

    I admit that I find it a little depressing that if a poster with known feminist tendencies were to say that women should assume all men are potential rapists, there would be mass outrage, but when its one of your own, it's apparently just common sense to assume that all men are potential rapists.

    It's not exactly unexpected, but depressing all the same.


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    #244
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't know you tell me.

    A 'slut' carries out 'slutty' behaviour.


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    #245
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A 'slut' carries out 'slutty' behaviour.

    There is no need calling tretorn a moron.


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    #246
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    tretorn wrote: »
    Sardonicat wrote: »
    Why don't you address it so? Tell me what my responsibility is in staying safe?

    Dare I be so bold as to advise you not get drunk and not to leave night clubs with strange men if you are plastered. Dont follow them up to their bedrooms because this might have them conclude that you are going somewhere private with them to do something that requires privacy. You will lose your inhibitions but thats the alcohols affect, you may then do something you regret but you cant call that rape.

    Thats taking personal responsibility for your safety, you cant do anything about other peoples behaviour but you can change your own.
    Seriously, is that meant to be a serious post. I'm glad women don't all that cause I would have missed out on some great nights. I would say a lot of Irish marriages started with a night like that. Sex does not need to be assumed as a right in that situation by any half reasonable human being.
    The rape crisis centre should be some sort of moral guardian for young women?
    In a thread full of some idiotic posts that is up there with the best of them


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    #247
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    meeeeh wrote: »
    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A 'slut' carries out 'slutty' behaviour.

    There is no need calling tretorn a moron.

    This was brilliantly delivered


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    #248
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    Faugheen wrote: »
    This was brilliantly delivered

    Thanks. :D


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    #249
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    B0jangles wrote: »
    Why do you think I am not concerned with fairness?

    I admit that I find it a little depressing that if a poster with known feminist tendencies were to say that women should assume all men are potential rapists, there would be mass outrage, but when its one of your own, it's just common sense to assume that all men are potential rapists.

    It's not exactly unexpected, but depressing all the same.

    All men are potential rapists. just like they are potential murderers.

    If you get yourself drunk and end up in the bedrooms of strange men, then you increase your chances of meeting one who is no longer 'potentially' one.

    Basic common sense and personal responsibility which should be one of the key things about this case.

    But no, it is a feminist brigade joined with erstwhile and practicing Roman Catholic outraged conservatives crusading to destroy the careers of a few men.


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    #250
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    meeeeh wrote: »
    There is no need calling tretorn a moron.

    No, I think you will find it was you who called him a moron and then applied my logic to your own insult and tried to pin it on me.


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    #251
    meeeeh
    Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    No, I think you will find it was you who called him a moron and then applied my logic to your own insult and tried to pin it on me.

    Too late.


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    #252
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    B0jangles wrote: »
    You are saying that if women don't want to get raped they shouldn't be alone with strange men - ergo they should assume that all men are rapists.

    I would have thought the lads around here would be a bit more bullish about defending the good name of Irish men, unless they agree that women should assume all men are rapists?

    Seems a bit extreme to me, but hey.

    Hi Cathy
    No, thats not what he is saying.


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    #253
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    The question of slutty behaviour as opposed to a slut.

    People who suffer from bioplar, of both sexes, can be promiscuous during a manic phase.

    Somebody may act a certain way to impress others if immature or for a number of psychological reasons.

    Not a black and white line with sluts and non sluts.

    Also the mores of the day. People engaging in sex before marriage between 1850-1950 may have been seen as sluts. Whereas in the 1700s , medieval times and today, to name a few eras, they wouldn't be.


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    #254
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    tretorn wrote: »
    Dare I be so bold as to advise you not get drunk and not to leave night clubs with strange men if you are plastered. Dont follow them up to their bedrooms because this might have them conclude that you are going somewhere private with them to do something that requires privacy. You will lose your inhibitions but thats the alcohols affect, you may then do something you regret but you cant call that rape.

    Thats taking personal responsibility for your safety, you cant do anything about other peoples behaviour but you can change your own.

    Ssssccch with any of that personal responsibility malarkey you rape apologist.


    Looking at the subsequent replies to this, isnt this exactly what we tell our daughters what not to do when they're heading out.
    Be responsible, dont drink too much, be aware of your conpany, dont leave your friends. Its not asuming all men are rapists, its a common sense approach to lessen the chances of something untoward happening, one of which is rape.

    Not all adults are paedos. We still tell our kids dont go off with strangers. Dont accept things from strangers, dont have secrets with grownups.
    Same fcukin thing FFS.
    Common sense.


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    #255
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    The question of slutty behaviour as opposed to a slut.

    People who suffer from bioplar, of both sexes, can be promiscuous during a manic phase.

    Somebody may act a certain way to impress others if immature or for a number of psychological reasons.

    Not a black and white line with sluts and non sluts.

    Also the mores of the day. People engaging in sex before marriage between 1850-1950 may have been seen as sluts. Whereas in the 1700s , medieval times and today, to name a few eras, they wouldn't be.


    There actually isn't any suggestion the defendants were being derogatory using the word anyway.
    They seemed to be delighted to be meeting promiscuous young women.

    That all changed when the mob decided they were running down all womankind.


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    #256
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    meeeeh wrote: »
    There is no need calling tretorn a moron.

    No, I think you will find it was you who called him a moron and then applied my logic to your own insult and tried to pin it on me.

    Except she doesn't agree with the logic so how is she calling him a moron?


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    #257
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,900 ✭✭✭kirving


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    So, can I ask you George, do you you ever think you'll get your drivetime slot back on Newstalk?

    Would yee ever stop throwing around this "victim blaming" line at every bit of sound advice ever offered.

    I went out a few years ago and got extremely drunk. Out of nowhere, I was assaulted by a guy for absolutely no reason.

    Was it my fault? Of course not.

    Did I put myself in a position where I was extremely vulnerable and couldn't defend myself? Yes.

    Does drinking heavily influence how likely it is to be attacked? Yes.

    Is it good advice to tell guys not to get way too drunk? Yes.

    Am I partially responsible for how the night played out as a whole? Yes. Read, responsible, but not at fault.

    Is a rape victim at fault? No.

    This isn't victim blaming. It's taking the reality of a situation and making a few sensible decisions to protect yourself, because not everyone else will.



    I'm perfectly entitled to walk down a narrow country road, at night, wearing black, after a lot of drink. Should we warn people of the dangers of doing so, or say nothing out of fear of "victim blaming"? Then put all the blame on the car driver when things go wrong? They should have seen me, right?


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    #258
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Except she doesn't agree with the logic so how is she calling him a moron?

    I have no idea what she was doing to be honest. Apparently I called someone a moron without using the word.


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    #259
    sightband
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 670 ✭✭✭sightband


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Who carries out 'slutty' behaviour?
    meeeeh wrote: »
    I don't know you tell me.

    No, you first pet ;) ever played a game called ‘just the tip’?


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    #260
    joe40
    Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    The women of ireland know only too well the dangers they can face on nights out. They have it drummed into them from an early age. I know that is what I will tell my daughter on nights out.
    Women know the dangers, they still want to socialise, go out meet guys whatever. The idea that the woman from the rape crisis centre should give behavioural advice is silly. That advice is not needed, women know it
    Young men also face dangers on nights out maybe even moreso in terms of unprovoked attacks, they will still go out and socialise. That is living


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    #261
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Ssssccch with any of that personal responsibility malarkey you rape apologist.


    Looking at the subsequent replies to this, isnt this exactly what we tell our daughters what not to do when they're heading out.
    Be responsible, dont drink too much, be aware of your conpany, dont leave your friends. Its not asuming all men are rapists, its a common sense approach to lessen the chances of something untoward happening, one of which is rape.

    Not all adults are paedos. We still tell our kids dont go off with strangers. Dont accept things from strangers, dont have secrets with grownups.
    Same fcukin thing FFS.
    Common sense.

    Considering how getting really drunk and engaging in sexual activity with a stranger has impacted on the lives of these men, I'm wondering why no advice for men on how to stay safe. Drink, strangers, sex - recipe for trouble. The more you engage in this risky business the more possibilities for 'misunderstanding' or as you say yourself "something untoward happening" . I would put getting raped in the worst category but being called a rapist is a very close second. So thanks for all the advice to us females on how not to get raped but maybe you could give a think about your son's safety too and have a word with him as well as your daughter heading out the door. The girl isn't the only one whose life could change utterly in one night. Again as you said yourself Common Sense.


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    #262
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    For one so opinionated you really need to keep abreast of current affairs. Opinions with no knowledge behind them, like your quotation, and mathematical deductions above are useless.

    And again one doesn't have to be asked personally with regards to opinion polls. You have heard of political opinion polls being used for over a century haven't you?

    Apart from knowing who Joe Schmidt is there's a whole world of knowledge out there.

    Wow....a proper genius on boards.

    I have indeed heard of opinion polls. Fierce accurate. Brexit? Trump? Sinn Fein in every government?

    Less of the bad manners there chap. I'm aware of who Joe Schmidt is as well. I do watch rugby. Just as an aside....what was the last AIL game you went to? That's the grass roots game of rugby and not latching on to the coat tails of the national team.


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    #263
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Considering how getting really drunk and engaging in sexual activity with a stranger has impacted on the lives of these men, I'm wondering why no advice for men on how to stay safe. Drink, strangers, sex - recipe for trouble. The more you engage in this risky business the more possibilities for 'misunderstanding' or as you say yourself "something untoward happening" . I would put getting raped in the worst category but being called a rapist is a very close second. So thanks for all the advice to us females on how not to get raped but maybe you could give a think about your son's safety too and have a word with him as well as your daughter heading out the door. The girl isn't the only one whose life could change utterly in one night. Again as you said yourself Common Sense.


    Its not advice. Its sharing common sense. Seems lacking.

    I give the same advice to Padawan, but with even more advice, as he may end up with a "duty of care" for someone, that he has to look out for their welfare.

    However, while Roger jnr may be assaulted and be left with life changing injuries or even dead from a lapse in judgement, or indeed through absolutely no fault of his own, theres a very low probability he will actually be raped. I dont really have a worry he will be raped by some fcuker.
    My girls on the other hand, there is a probability of them raped ( in addition to that what might befall Roger jnr.). So if theres anything they can do to mitigate this risk, i advice them to take such actions.


    "Hey kids. Dont run accross the road without looking, you might get knocked down"
    Do all cars knock down kids?
    Do all kids get knocked down crossing the road?
    Should kids take sensible precautiobs to avoid being knocked down?
    Is it the kids fault if they get knocked down?
    Did i just victim blame a kud for getting knocked down?


    Its worrying this stuff has to be spelled out to people


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    #264
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,973 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Its not advice. Its sharing common sense. Seems lacking.

    I give the same advice to Padawan, but with even more advice, as he may end up with a "duty of care" for someone, that he has to look out for their welfare.

    However, while Roger jnr may be assaulted and be left with life changing injuries or even dead from a lapse in judgement, or indeed through absolutely no fault of his own, theres a very low probability he will actually be raped. I dont really have a worry he will be raped by some fcuker.
    My girls on the other hand, there is a probability of them raped ( in addition to that what might befall Roger jnr.). So if theres anything they can do to mitigate this risk, i advice them to take such actions.


    "Hey kids. Dont run accross the road without looking, you might get knocked down"
    Do all cars knock down kids?
    Do all kids get knocked down crossing the road?
    Should kids take sensible precautiobs to avoid being knocked down?
    Is it the kids fault if they get knocked down?
    Did i just victim blame a kud for getting knocked down?


    Its worrying this stuff has to be spelled out to people

    When somebody tried to say it on radio or at least start the discussion they hounded him out of his job.


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    #265
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    Roger Hassenforder wrote: »
    Its not advice. Its sharing common sense. Seems lacking.

    I give the same advice to Padawan, but with even more advice, as he may end up with a "duty of care" for someone, that he has to look out for their welfare.

    However, while Roger jnr may be assaulted and be left with life changing injuries or even dead from a lapse in judgement, or indeed through absolutely no fault of his own, theres a very low probability he will actually be raped. I dont really have a worry he will be raped by some fcuker.
    My girls on the other hand, there is a probability of them raped ( in addition to that what might befall Roger jnr.). So if theres anything they can do to mitigate this risk, i advice them to take such actions.


    "Hey kids. Dont run accross the road without looking, you might get knocked down"
    Do all cars knock down kids?
    Do all kids get knocked down crossing the road?
    Should kids take sensible precautiobs to avoid being knocked down?
    Is it the kids fault if they get knocked down?
    Did i just victim blame a kud for getting knocked down?


    Its worrying this stuff has to be spelled out to people

    Oh believe me it doesn't but I still don't see that you are giving any advice to junior on how his 'fun night out' could find him ending up in court as the defendant. Is that not a consideration at all ?


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    #266
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    Lads you are wasting your time trying to defend the lads.

    The mob had their minds made up before the trial.
    They had their opinions formed without all the information.
    They jumped on a #notmycaptain bandwagon without any knowledge of why Rory Best was called to court.
    They drew their own conclusions from the snippets of information they got from the press.
    They heard that the lads were acquitted but refused to accept the juries decision...one idiot on twitter has tried to get the hash tag "retrial needed" trending.
    They couldn't take the juries decision so jumped on private whatsapp messages to form judgement.

    It wouldn't matter now if the complainant came out tomorrow and said she drank way too much and admitted she was consenting in all acts.
    The lads are guilty in their eyes and that's all that matters.
    The legal system is undermined by so many fools who seem to know more than any solicitor, barrister or judge.

    My brother in law is a solicitor and we were talking about the case on Sunday. My wife is adamant that they are guilty. Unfortunately for her, every argument she gave was swiftly countered by him (he doesn't even live in ireland any more and has next to zero knowledge of the case)....it's interesting to see how someone with a legal background can tear to shreds someone who has nothing more than an opinion on this.


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    #267
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Wow....a proper genius on boards.

    I have indeed heard of opinion polls. Fierce accurate. Brexit? Trump? Sinn Fein in every government?

    Less of the bad manners there chap. I'm aware of who Joe Schmidt is as well. I do watch rugby. Just as an aside....what was the last AIL game you went to? That's the grass roots game of rugby and not latching on to the coat tails of the national team.

    The little bad mannered 'chap' who gave me a smart reply about not knowing who Joe Schmidt was a few days back can't take his own medicine:D

    I'm a very polite poster except when i come across rude posts from ill informed posters.

    My last rugby match attendance was Carlow U18s v Newbridge. When was your last involvement old chap?

    So you're suggesting only people involved in grass roots rugby or soccer can comment on who represents them nationally. Oh how elitist!

    As regards opinion polls they are a snapshot in time. People change their minds McFeckling. As of now the majority don't want those two splendid chaps Jacko and Olding playing on the Irish rugby team.

    You really should question every poster here on their rugby bona fides as without attending AIL games they really shouldn't be allowed comment. Only superiors like yourself should comment.


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    #268
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Lads you are wasting your time trying to defend the lads.

    The mob had their minds made up before the trial.
    They had their opinions formed without all the information.
    They jumped on a #notmycaptain bandwagon without any knowledge of why Rory Best was called to court.
    They drew their own conclusions from the snippets of information they got from the press.
    They heard that the lads were acquitted but refused to accept the juries decision...one idiot on twitter has tried to get the hash tag "retrial needed" trending.
    They couldn't take the juries decision so jumped on private whatsapp messages to form judgement.

    It wouldn't matter now if the complainant came out tomorrow and said she drank way too much and admitted she was consenting in all acts.
    The lads are guilty in their eyes and that's all that matters.
    The legal system is undermined by so many fools who seem to know more than any solicitor, barrister or judge.

    My brother in law is a solicitor and we were talking about the case on Sunday. My wife is adamant that they are guilty. Unfortunately for her, every argument she gave was swiftly countered by him (he doesn't even live in ireland any more and has next to zero knowledge of the case)....it's interesting to see how someone with a legal background can tear to shreds someone who has nothing more than an opinion on this.

    The lads, very paly terminology. Your brother in law the solicitor! Wow! Aren't we in excellent company this evening.

    I blame it all on those absurd hashtag groups preventing our boys from playing rugby. Only true rugby blue bloods like myself, McFeckling should be allowed comment. There's an awful lot of gutty around here trying to stop the fellows playing.


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    #269
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    NAGDEFI wrote: »
    The little bad mannered 'chap' who gave me a smart reply about not knowing who Joe Schmidt was a few days back can't take his own medicine:D

    I'm a very polite poster except when i come across rude posts from ill informed posters.

    My last rugby match attendance was Carlow U18s v Newbridge. When was your last involvement old chap?

    So you're suggesting only people involved in grass roots rugby or soccer can comment on who represents them nationally. Oh how elitist!

    As regards opinion polls they are a snapshot in time. People change their minds McFeckling. As of now the majority don't want those two splendid chaps Jacko and Olding playing on the Irish rugby team.

    You really should question every poster here on their rugby bona fides as without attending AIL games they really shouldn't be allowed comment. Only superiors like yourself should comment.


    People change their minds? Not on here they don't. They are presented with a jury returning a verdict which clears 2 men of rape but to the I'll informed they are still guilty.
    Who's the "little bad mannered chap"?
    Seems I touched a nerve with you before and you've the shield up.
    Run along and find another crusade to join when this one's over "like a good little chap".


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    #270
    NAGDEFI
    Closed Accounts Posts: 755 ✭✭✭NAGDEFI


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Lads you are wasting your time trying to defend the lads.

    The mob had their minds made up before the trial.
    They had their opinions formed without all the information.
    They jumped on a #notmycaptain bandwagon without any knowledge of why Rory Best was called to court.
    They drew their own conclusions from the snippets of information they got from the press.
    They heard that the lads were acquitted but refused to accept the juries decision...one idiot on twitter has tried to get the hash tag "retrial needed" trending.
    They couldn't take the juries decision so jumped on private whatsapp messages to form judgement.

    It wouldn't matter now if the complainant came out tomorrow and said she drank way too much and admitted she was consenting in all acts.
    The lads are guilty in their eyes and that's all that matters.
    The legal system is undermined by so many fools who seem to know more than any solicitor, barrister or judge.

    My brother in law is a solicitor and we were talking about the case on Sunday. My wife is adamant that they are guilty. Unfortunately for her, every argument she gave was swiftly countered by him (he doesn't even live in ireland any more and has next to zero knowledge of the case)....it's interesting to see how someone with a legal background can tear to shreds someone who has nothing more than an opinion on this.

    Did it ever cross your mind that a lot of people across the spectrum, of both genders, say NO. That's not acceptable behaviour from somebody representing their country. Regardless of the men being found not guilty of rape? They have an opinion, and because it differs from yours they need not be denigrated as a mob, twitterati, feminazis.

    In that case your opinions are only representative of a smaller 'mob'.

    I want men representing my country who respect women. And if many speak of terms such as fcuking sluts, spit roasting etc, that doesn't make it right. It's time people were held accountable for their behaviour before this type of language and attitude becomes a norm throughout society.


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    #271
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,168 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Lads you are wasting your time trying to defend the lads.

    The mob had their minds made up before the trial.
    They had their opinions formed without all the information.
    They jumped on a #notmycaptain bandwagon without any knowledge of why Rory Best was called to court.
    They drew their own conclusions from the snippets of information they got from the press.
    They heard that the lads were acquitted but refused to accept the juries decision...one idiot on twitter has tried to get the hash tag "retrial needed" trending.
    They couldn't take the juries decision so jumped on private whatsapp messages to form judgement.

    It wouldn't matter now if the complainant came out tomorrow and said she drank way too much and admitted she was consenting in all acts.
    The lads are guilty in their eyes and that's all that matters.
    The legal system is undermined by so many fools who seem to know more than any solicitor, barrister or judge.

    My brother in law is a solicitor and we were talking about the case on Sunday. My wife is adamant that they are guilty. Unfortunately for her, every argument she gave was swiftly countered by him (he doesn't even live in ireland any more and has next to zero knowledge of the case)....it's interesting to see how someone with a legal background can tear to shreds someone who has nothing more than an opinion on this.

    Wow...another solicitor! And your brother in law!!! Well aren't we in the company of our betters tonight!!!

    Your wife of course is incorrect, the lads were all found not guilty...but that young woman was not lying...inconsistent yes, lying no...

    There were others who were much more inconsistent, dangerously inconsistent in fact.


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