Men's rights on Abortion?

Wibbs · 11-04-2018 03:30PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Would you paint anyone who votes no as an "uninformed moron", or is it just those that agree with your position you consider informed?

end of the road wrote: »

if you believe that, then you don't believe in democracy. this vote is open to all who are legally able to vote.

TBH I couldn't bloody believe my eyes reading that post and the follow up. Beggars belief, though I have heard similar elsewhere; namely that it only affects young women(it doesn't) and anyone outside that demographic should have little or no say or just go along with the yes vote.

I would say - and not just on this subject - there are all sorts of groups across the political spectrum that aren't exactly happy about democracy or quite simply don't like how it works, or know how it works.

please do vote. it's your right. don't worry about what other's think. you have a right to a say on this constitutional change. use it.

Plus 1000.

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 03:53PM

Its like this for me, posting in this forum everything is done with a theme of mens rights.

The video i posted earlier of an individual telling men of Ireland to STFU is something i have seen allot over this campaign and even in this very thread. If it was something expressed by a male it would be viewed as misogynistic but gets a free pass because its coming from a "minority group".

This referendum was always going to be more than right to abortion and for me its becoming a rights issue all on its own for men because an element of those who want this in place would prefer i lose my right to vote in the referendum.

....... · 11-04-2018 03:57PM

This post has been deleted.

Triceratops Ballet · 11-04-2018 04:51PM

Calhoun wrote: »

Its like this for me, posting in this forum everything is done with a theme of mens rights.

The video i posted earlier of an individual telling men of Ireland to STFU is something i have seen allot over this campaign and even in this very thread. If it was something expressed by a male it would be viewed as misogynistic but gets a free pass because its coming from a "minority group".

This referendum was always going to be more than right to abortion and for me its becoming a rights issue all on its own for men because an element of those who want this in place would prefer i lose my right to vote in the referendum.

There is no actual danger of men losing their right to vote in this referendum and there are far more people (men and women) on the repeal side who will counter the lunatic notion that men shouldn't have an opinion.

If you want to vote no because you think it has merit, do so but please don't waste this once in a lifetime opportunity because some loon said men shouldn't have a right to vote, put it down to them being uneducated on how democracy works and vote with your conscience, if that still says no so be it, but let it be because you believe in the equal right to life of women and the unborn not because you felt that someone with no power to do so said that you shouldn't have an opinion.

This issue may have already touched your life or may do so in the future without you even knowing so give it the respect of your proper consideration.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-04-2018 05:25PM

Calhoun wrote: »

Its like this for me, posting in this forum everything is done with a theme of mens rights.

The video i posted earlier of an individual telling men of Ireland to STFU is something i have seen allot over this campaign and even in this very thread. If it was something expressed by a male it would be viewed as misogynistic but gets a free pass because its coming from a "minority group".

This referendum was always going to be more than right to abortion and for me its becoming a rights issue all on its own for men because an element of those who want this in place would prefer i lose my right to vote in the referendum.

There have been a couple of people who supported the idea that men should STFU about abortion. I also remember the vast majority of people strongly disagreeing with them with a fairly consistent message that men obviously have the normal rights to vote on abortion.

Are you seriously willing to allow a small number of eejits to dictate how you vote instead of pulling on your big boy pants and making up your mind? Do you have no appreciation for your position as an adult in society?

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 05:39PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There have been a couple of people who supported the idea that men should STFU about abortion. I also remember the vast majority of people strongly disagreeing with them with a fairly consistent message that men obviously have the normal rights to vote on abortion.

Are you seriously willing to allow a small number of eejits to dictate how you vote instead of pulling on your big boy pants and making up your mind? Do you have no appreciation for your position as an adult in society?

This is case in point of the type of condescension we are faced with as men, then we are expected to just go along with it. Its something you see across the media and even from our elected representatives were we are told to "trust or female members of society as if our opinion doesn't matter.

If anything this referendum has shown is that feminists and the SJW's are all nice as pie as long as your going along with the group think of the day but when you disagree or have any concerns they just want to shut you down and shut you up.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-04-2018 05:49PM

Calhoun wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

There have been a couple of people who supported the idea that men should STFU about abortion. I also remember the vast majority of people strongly disagreeing with them with a fairly consistent message that men obviously have the normal rights to vote on abortion.

Are you seriously willing to allow a small number of eejits to dictate how you vote instead of pulling on your big boy pants and making up your mind? Do you have no appreciation for your position as an adult in society?

This is case in point of the type of condescension we are faced with as men, then we are expected to just go along with it. Its something you see across the media and even from our elected representatives were we are told to "trust or female members of society as if our opinion doesn't matter.

If anything this referendum has shown is that feminists and the SJW's are all nice as pie as long as your going along with the group think of the day but when you disagree or have any concerns they just want to shut you down and shut you up.

I don't know where you got that from. I pointed out that the vast majority of male and female posters strongly disagreed with the daft notion that men shouldn't have an opinion on abortion. Far from asking you to "trust or female members of society as if our opinion doesn't matter", I would like if you thought about the issue at hand like an adult and voted accordingly.

How childish is it to allow a small minority of randomers to coerce you to vote one way or another? Whats the middle aged equivalent of snowflakes and millennials?

Triceratops Ballet · 11-04-2018 05:49PM

Calhoun wrote: »

This is case in point of the type of condescension we are faced with as men, then we are expected to just go along with it. Its something you see across the media and even from our elected representatives were we are told to "trust or female members of society as if our opinion doesn't matter.

If anything this referendum has shown is that feminists and the SJW's are all nice as pie as long as your going along with the group think of the day but when you disagree or have any concerns they just want to shut you down and shut you up.

The message isn't "trust women to vote" it's "trust women to decide what to do when they find themselves pregnant" remember not every woman going through a crisis pregnancy has a loving supportive partner to lean on.

If you disagree or have concerns thats fair enough but it's preposterous to vote against something because "feminists" are voting for it.
Do you really believe there is/do youhave evidence of a movement to stop men from voting in this referendum?

mzungu · 11-04-2018 05:49PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I just did, there a lot more balanced looking.

You need to look a bit closer, perhaps start those folks at Youth Defence and their murky history.

Taking a look at a few random faces at a march will tell you nothing.

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 05:53PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

There is no actual danger of men losing their right to vote in this referendum and there are far more people (men and women) on the repeal side who will counter the lunatic notion that men shouldn't have an opinion.

If you want to vote no because you think it has merit, do so but please don't waste this once in a lifetime opportunity because some loon said men shouldn't have a right to vote, put it down to them being uneducated on how democracy works and vote with your conscience, if that still says no so be it, but let it be because you believe in the equal right to life of women and the unborn not because you felt that someone with no power to do so said that you shouldn't have an opinion.

This issue may have already touched your life or may do so in the future without you even knowing so give it the respect of your proper consideration.

I am not so sure its a throw away vote from my perspective, right now we have a situation where TD's who voted against a bill in the dail are being accused of being anti-democracy. You also have a situation where there is no real party putting up any real opposition and then you have the likes of the Coppingers of this world and all the anti-male rhetoric that comes from them,

What precedence are we setting for how we behave as a society? thats a big concern to me.

mzungu · 11-04-2018 06:02PM

Calhoun wrote: »

I am not so sure its a throw away vote from my perspective, right now we have a situation where TD's who voted against a bill in the dail are being accused of being anti-democracy. You also have a situation where there is no real party putting up any real opposition and then you have the likes of the Coppingers of this world and all the anti-male rhetoric that comes from them,

What precedence are we setting for how we behave as a society? thats a big concern to me.

They were accused of that because they voted not to have a referendum at all. Basically they were saying we don't trust the people on this. That is indeed, quite anti-democratic.

A lot of pro-life TDs voted to have a referendum, because whilst they might disagree with abortion, they agree that the citizens of the nation should be allowed to vote on it. That is democratic.

Triceratops Ballet · 11-04-2018 06:04PM

Calhoun wrote: »

I am not so sure its a throw away vote from my perspective, right now we have a situation where TD's who voted against a bill in the dail are being accused of being anti-democracy. You also have a situation where there is no real party putting up any real opposition and then you have the likes of the Coppingers of this world and all the anti-male rhetoric that comes from them,

What precedence are we setting for how we behave as a society? thats a big concern to me.

I'm not sure what you mean? do you oppose the repeal of the 8th, how the campaigns are being handled, or how the government is behaving?

Voting no is the answer to one of those things, but not the other 2

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 06:04PM

mzungu wrote: »

They were accused of that because they voted not to have a referendum at all. Basically they were saying we don't trust the people on this. That is indeed, quite anti-democratic.

Were they not elected to vote on such issues? its part and parcel of the current structures we have in place in our democracy.

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 06:11PM

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean? do you oppose the repeal of the 8th, how the campaigns are being handled, or how the government is behaving?

Voting no is the answer to one of those things, but not the other 2

I do not oppose the repeal, its funny in my much younger days in secondary school i actually participated in a debate and i defended the pro-choice position. I personally feel something like the 8th has no real place in our constitution.

For me its the current societal position on this that i am very concerned about, its like a collective group think from all the big powers, government, media ect and any one not inline is a pariah.

I am still on the fence, i havent really decided 100% right now what way im going to go but the point of my posts today were to try and illustrate why others are not for it and get some dialogue going.

mzungu · 11-04-2018 06:15PM

Calhoun wrote: »

You also have a situation where there is no real party putting up any real opposition and then you have the likes of the Coppingers of this world and all the anti-male rhetoric that comes from them,

What precedence are we setting for how we behave as a society? thats a big concern to me.

IIRC pretty much all parties have allowed TD's to go with their conscience. Some may lean more conservative (eg. Fianna Fail, Micheal Martin and a few others aside, they are mostly in the pro-life camp).

I am not a fan of Coppinger, and I would disagree with all the fantasist claptrap she comes out with. Regarding "setting the agenda", the only parties that are really doing that would be the big two that we have always had, and the Trotsky loving AAA/PBP are down in opinion polls, partly because the recession is over and their rhetoric falls on more and more deaf ears.

DickSwiveller · 11-04-2018 06:17PM

Calhoun wrote: »

I do not oppose the repeal, its funny in my much younger days in secondary school i actually participated in a debate and i defended the pro-choice position. I personally feel something like the 8th has no real place in our constitution.

For me its the current societal position on this that i am very concerned about, its like a collective group think from all the big powers, government, media ect and any one not inline is a pariah.

I am still on the fence, i havent really decided 100% right now what way im going to go but the point of my posts today were to try and illustrate why others are not for it and get some dialogue going.

I'm with you Calhoun. The level of sanctimony and intolerance from the pro choice crowd is nauseating. Just look at twatter and look at the abuse people like David Quinn get on a regular basis from these tolerant people. Also, the endless stupid slogans: "Trust women" says Mary Lou and then gets rid of one of her pro life TD's.

Wibbs · 11-04-2018 06:18PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

My view would generally be and not just on this subject that uninformed is too common a currency.

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 06:19PM

From the outside it looks like there is allot of pressures even internally of each party to vote a certain way. I cant remember the Female TD that basically said the men should "trust" their female TD's and vote for them.

Its the 2018 equivalent of get back in the kitchen and let the man deal with the real issues.

sheepintheback · 11-04-2018 06:21PM

I wasn't sure if i was gonna vote yes or no...but after reading comments from hypocritical women here who think they can kill a man's child... ye have convinced me to....
VOTE NO

Triceratops Ballet · 11-04-2018 06:23PM

Calhoun wrote: »

I do not oppose the repeal, its funny in my much younger days in secondary school i actually participated in a debate and i defended the pro-choice position. I personally feel something like the 8th has no real place in our constitution.

For me its the current societal position on this that i am very concerned about, its like a collective group think from all the big powers, government, media ect and any one not inline is a pariah.

I was only born in 83 so I can only imagine, but I'm sure there was an element of group think affecting the campaign to put the 8th in the constitution, I'm sure it can't have been easy for people voting against the amendment at the time going up against the power of the church and other groups who were in favour of it at, it think that's just how referenda are, there's only two choices so the lines are very clearly drawn.
I don't think there'd ever be a referendum on this topic, where it didn't seem the power balance was out of whack.

eviltwin · 11-04-2018 06:29PM

sheepintheback wrote: »

I wasn't sure if i was gonna vote yes or no...but after reading comments from hypocritical women here who think they can kill a man's child... ye have convinced me to....
VOTE NO

I remember you. You're the leaving cert student trying to have twins with your wife right?

Luckily for you trolling isn't a leaving cert subject, you'd fail for sure.

Calhoun · 11-04-2018 06:29PM

Don't get me wrong either the pro-life side are no better but they don't have backing of government, most of main stream media and a good chunk of the online community.

If i was to read it right now id say its the pro-choice sides to loose.

gozunda · 11-04-2018 06:33PM

sheepintheback wrote: »

I wasn't sure if i was gonna vote yes or no...but after reading comments from hypocritical women here who think they can kill a man's child... ye have convinced me to....
VOTE NO

No I didn't come across any posts that stated "they think they can kill a man's child"? From "hypocritical women" or otherwise. Btw using a phrase like 'hypocritical women' comes across as very hostile and purile.

You do know the whole planting the seed in a woman myth has also been disproved for a while ya? Just to spell it out it takes two to get pregnant.

Tbh the discussion has been fairly ok imo. Ya there is a few loonies in the debate generally but it's easy enough to discount them for what they are - loonies.

The point of this thread I thought was not that men shouldn't have a vote rather the final decision whether a pregnancy comes down to the person who Is actually pregnant because you can neither force to carry a pregnancy thru to term or force them to have an abortion.

If you are going to vote - don't vote as a fu reaction to a small bunch of idiots whatever side their on...

Edit: I'm going to cut you some slack here - just saw you're post where you are about to sit the leaving cert very soon. So I guess you won't be voting at all...

Ps - I hope you don't do biology as a subject

sheepintheback · 11-04-2018 06:39PM

eviltwin wrote: »

I remember you. You're the leaving cert student trying to have twins with your wife right?

Luckily for you trolling isn't a leaving cert subject, you'd fail for sure.

I am a leaving cert student yes, and i don't see how you bringing up past threads of mine makes my opinion on abortion classified as "Trolling".

I am voting no, because its unfair for a father not to have a say in his childs future.

(As for the twin thread, i said it related to me so i'd get more responses...it came up in a conversation and me and ny friends got curious...if you noticed it was my first thread...after that i bacame interested in other boards such as LC and History)

Sorry about that rant..discussion of other threads probably shouldnt be discussed here but if you look back over my posts...there is NO trolling.

SO MY OPINION HERE IS VALID.

I am totally against abortion so stop looking for excuses because my opinion is differnt to yours

gozunda · 11-04-2018 06:47PM

sheepintheback wrote: »

I am a leaving cert student yes, and i don't see how you bringing up past threads of mine makes my opinion on abortion classified as "Trolling".

I am voting no, because its unfair for a father not to have a say in his childs future.

(As for the twin thread, i said it related to me so i'd get more responses...it came up in a conversation and me and ny friends got curious...if you noticed it was my first thread...after that i bacame interested in other boards such as LC and History)

Sorry about that rant..discussion of other threads probably shouldnt be discussed here but if you look back over my posts...there is NO trolling.

SO MY OPINION HERE IS VALID.

I am totally against abortion so stop looking for excuses because my opinion is differnt to yours

You have outed yourself in posting some fairly contradictory stuff -

With the the wife the leaving cert IVF and your campaigning as a prolifer - chxst but you are a busy young man

I suggest you have a little lie down you must be knackered after all that ...

Triceratops Ballet · 11-04-2018 06:51PM

sheepintheback wrote: »

I am voting no, because its unfair for a father not to have a say in his childs future.

That's not what we're voting on, fathers do have a say in their childrens futures. It is not only women who chose abortion, men travel to the UK with their partners to terminate much wanted pregnancies because of fatal abnormalities.

You're entitled to your opinion but you should read up on the actual text of the proposal for the facts.
The vote isn't even on the legalisation of abortion, it's on the removal of a constitutional amendment which gives the unborn the equal right to life of their mother.
It is not about women taking away the opportunity for fathers to have a say in their childrens future

sheepintheback · 11-04-2018 06:52PM

gozunda wrote: »

just saw you're post where you are about to sit the leaving very. So I guess you won't be voting at all..

Well i am 18 since December..so yea i will...

Look im sorry..but this thread is full of people with opinions..perhaps i worded my post wrong.
I was mearly juat trying to say that i will be voting no..because if abortion is legalised then it opens up a whole window of oppertunities..women will have more access to abortion..this is likely to increase the amount of abortions that will take place agains the fathers wishes...that is my point

I did not mean to insult anyone...as i said..this thread is full of people stating there opinions...why am innot able to do so?

I am sorry if i worded it wrong..

I hope this clears thing up abit from my point of view???

gozunda · 11-04-2018 07:06PM

sheepintheback wrote: »

Well i am 18 since December..so yea i will...

Look im sorry..but this thread is full of people with opinions..perhaps i worded my post wrong.
I was mearly juat trying to say that i will be voting no..because if abortion is legalised then it opens up a whole window of oppertunities..women will have more access to abortion..this is likely to increase the amount of abortions that will take place agains the fathers wishes...that is my point
I did not mean to insult anyone...as i said..this thread is full of people stating there opinions...why am innot able to do so?
I am sorry if i worded it wrong..
I hope this clears thing up abit from my point of view???

Ok you changed your reason why you're voting no -

from this

sheepintheback wrote: »

I wasn't sure if i was gonna vote yes or no...but after reading comments from hypocritical women here who think they can kill a man's child... ye have convinced me to....
VOTE NO

To this

I am voting no, because its unfair for a father not to have a say in his childs future.

To this

sheepintheback wrote:

i will be voting no..because if abortion is legalised then it opens up a whole window of oppertunities..women will have more access to abortion..this is likely to increase the amount of abortions that will take place agains the fathers wishes...

You appear a bit confused tbh ...

I already posted this above but perhaps you should read it again

The point of this thread I thought was not that men shouldn't have a vote rather the final decision whether a pregnancy is terminated comes down to the person who Is actually pregnant because you can neither force to carry a pregnancy thru to term or force them to have an abortion.

Women already choose to have abortions and do so by travelling to the UK. That is not going to go away. At least some of those women do so with the knowledge off their partners others dont and some men may never know and there will be occasions when a woman may not be certain of the paternity. It's never a simple choice.

Martina1991 · 11-04-2018 07:46PM

sheepintheback wrote:

I am voting no, because its unfair for a father not to have a say in his childs future.

I think it's unfair to force a woman to continue with an unwanted pregnancy against her will.

You know nothing of the realities of pregnancy and childbirth. You come across as completely uneducated on the subject and the grim realities of those effected by the 8th amendment.

sheepintheback · 11-04-2018 08:14PM

The point of this thread I thought was not that men shouldn't have a vote rather the final decision whether a pregnancy is terminated comes down to the person who Is actually pregnant because you can neither force to carry a pregnancy thru to term or force them to have abortion

Yes...i don't think it is fair to "force" anyone to do anything, ie "force" someone to carry a pregnancy through to term.
BUT, ontop of that i find it unfair that some people here think that men have NO SAY WHATSOEVER in the birth of his child.

Hence my post that i will vote no...because apealling the 8th amendment (in my opinion) will cause a "ripple effect"..ie abortion legalised in Ireland...which will make it easier for more women to abort (if a women is willing to travel to UK, then i think she is more certain about the decision..which is totally fair, as long as the father has knowledge)
Because the appeal of the 8th amendment may lead to legal abortion in Ireland, again this is my opinion, i think the level of abortions will increase in Ireland as there is less trouble involved than travelling to another Europeean Country.
Because of this POSSIBLE increase in abortion rates, then it is highlybprobable some of these abortions will be done without the knowlege of the father...this goes against my personal opinions that fathers should have a say.

Can you see the "ripple effect" I am on about now?

I will say this again because i think ye completly dismissed this part in a previous post.
I am sorry if I insulted anyone, this us mearly my opinion. And i agree that my first post on this thread was totally out of order, i was just initially livid and i apologise for that. But my initiall post is still reflected in this one, but not as angry. I still think it is unfair for a women to make the decision to abort, if the father wants the child.

I know there is no imediate compromise, as i also think it is unethical to force it onto the woman to carry the child. But that doesnt change my opinion on her aborting a mans child, and getting rid of a mans chance to be a father.
I dont have an alternative.

I hope this clears things up now?
Again i apologise......

Men's rights on Abortion?

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