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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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  • Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭citizen6


    I think McDowell, Barrett et al haven't looked at the maps properly and imagine everyone getting off the Metro at Charlemont and switching to Luas. But passengers for Grangegorman etc can change at O'Connell St. Almost anyone else will be better off with Metro and walking. Those who can't walk except very short distances, will now have options at SSG East and Tara in addition existing nearby Luas stops.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭prunudo


    It be nice if somebody influential could write a fact based postive article for 1 or 2 of the papers on why we need this plan and to drag our heels on it will be to the detriment of the city.
    We need to start thinking of the huge potential of not just the metorlink route but also the possible future lines that hopefully link more of the city together.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭jd


    Have I got the options right here post Metrolink and Dart Upgrade? I assume Kildare line Darts would use Heuston "West" and the Phoenix Park Tunnel. Still unclear which services would use Rosslare Line and which would use Dockland Station. I didn't include Luas.

    447676.png


  • Registered Users Posts: 96 ✭✭citizen6


    jvan wrote: »
    It be nice if somebody influential could write a fact based postive article for 1 or 2 of the papers on why we need this plan and to drag our heels on it will be to the detriment of the city.
    We need to start thinking of the huge potential of not just the metorlink route but also the possible future lines that hopefully link more of the city together.

    We live in hope. I think the most compelling argument for the general public would be a list of journeys that are now possible eg Balbriggan-Sandyford, Maynooth-Airport etc with new and old journey times. There's lots of people sitting on the M50 or N7 every morning who don't realise how this will help them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭ignorance is strength


    jd wrote: »
    Have I got the options right here post Metrolink and Dart Upgrade? I assume Kildare line Darts would use Heuston "West" and the Phoenix Park Tunnel. Still unclear which services would use Rosslare Line and which would use Dockland Station. I didn't include Luas.

    447676.png

    Yeah, looks right. But there's an equivalent graphic in the published plans, which bk posted before!


    446283.png


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I live in Rathfarnham and got a flyer in today from John lahart of FF it’s the usual look at what I’ve done nonsense but the front proclaims nothing in the development plan for south west Dublin. It says that the metro will go from swords to Sandyford with Sandyford already being served by the green LUAS. He doesn’t really mention upgrade kinda suggesting it’s a double up without saying it. Spouts a bit about what he wants transport wise then when I turn to page 2 on another matter he says he’s FFs Dublin spokesperson. People like him are why we can’t have nice things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    salmocab wrote: »
    I live in Rathfarnham and got a flyer in today from John lahart of FF it’s the usual look at what I’ve done nonsense but the front proclaims nothing in the development plan for south west Dublin. It says that the metro will go from swords to Sandyford with Sandyford already being served by the green LUAS. He doesn’t really mention upgrade kinda suggesting it’s a double up without saying it. Spouts a bit about what he wants transport wise then when I turn to page 2 on another matter he says he’s FFs Dublin spokesperson. People like him are why we can’t have nice things.

    He’s FF. He’s meant to be opposing/harassing the government. Except FF’s problem is they support the government!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭ignorance is strength


    Just had a read of Michael McDowell's article.

    He describes the public consultation as "an elaborate con-job perpetuated not merely on the people of Dublin but also on the people of Ireland."

    Claims Metrolink money would get you between seven and ten Luas lines, an alternative which he thinks compatible with later bemoaning the disruption that would be caused during the building of the metro line: "how long would the Luas Green line be completely out of commission? ... How long would the east side of St Stephen's Green be closed off?"

    Metrolink will "cannibalise the Luas Green line" and result in its "permanent dismemberment". And high-floor trams would entail "every existing Luas station (south of Charl.) ... having to be rebuilt."

    He lists a bunch of places that he says would remain unserved, including Glasnevin and Churchtown (which will be), Palmerstown and Lucan (which are planned to get a Luas), Ballymun (which will be part served by Metrolink, part by the proposed Luas to Finglas) and Deansgrange (for which there's surely no justification). He suggests a Luas line serving Cabinteely, Stillorgan, Belfield and Ballsbridge, i.e. between the Dart line and the Luas Green line! He sets up a false trade-off between Metrolink and "serving huge areas of Dublin that have no prospet of any mass transport if the money is sucked into the black hole of the Metrolink project."

    He said "the Metrolink project is centred on a fixation that Dublin Airport must be served by a rail transport link," and then goes on to repeat arguments in the vein of Sean Barrett's on Prime Time. No mention of Swords throughout.

    Apparently "most people have already forgotten the elaborate (Dart Underground) plan ... (which) has been quietly abandoned" and there has been "no high-level consideration of how all these broken shards of proper planning can ever fit together."

    Ironically, he scolds railway-planner "boffins" for favouring their "pet projects" over alternatives, when it later proves that they are being the pragmatists and he the fantasist: "We need to have a real debate on Dublin's future - one that includes housing densities and real urban renewal of rundown areas, that considers the possibility of relocating the city's port to Bremore and buiding new high-rise city in the docklands north and south of the Liffey, one that really gets to grips with the traffic infrastructure (including a further orbital motorway to relieve the M50), one that plans urban mass transit on an integrated business. Instead we have a mess."

    Could you imagine if we took his advice and not only linked the city's transport plans to a hugely complex and contentious move of the port north and the planned city that would take its place, but then brought the Dail and the public into the decision process?! There's a reason we have a civil service and representative democracy, and it's to take these decisions on the public's behalf.

    I had fun identifying all the ways in which his diatribe is irrational and misinformed. But I'm also worried by his call to arms: "People worried about the line's effect on their property are simply in no position to make a high-level challenge ... That is the business of elected legislators - national or local. It is also the business of the capital's social partners ... Will nobody shout stop so that we can consider the chaos?" Rumour is he may be running for the Dail as an independent.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,859 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    A failed politician from a failed political party, both rejected by the electorate, yet for some reason he is given an outlet in the national media to spew his unchecked nonsense.

    :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,313 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    There is actually a stop on the lower Churchtown road, great research there.

    Regards FF being in opposition that is the problem they think it’s their job to object not serve the people, the big problem is they all think that.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach



    Ironically, he scolds railway-planner "boffins" for favouring their "pet projects" over alternatives, when it later proves that they are being the pragmatists and he the fantasist: "We need to have a real debate on Dublin's future - one that includes housing densities and real urban renewal of rundown areas, that considers the possibility of relocating the city's port to Bremore and buiding new high-rise city in the docklands north and south of the Liffey, one that really gets to grips with the traffic infrastructure (including a further orbital motorway to relieve the M50), one that plans urban mass transit on an integrated business. Instead we have a mess."

    Remember this from 2005:
    75792045_149a3ae72c_o.jpg

    Didn't work out too well for him in 2007.

    Full size manifesto + above pic can be read here (link as it's too big to post in thread)
    https://irishelectionliterature.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/anewheart3.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Oh and of course the same document included Outer Orbital and Bremore, jaysuz he obviously hasn't had a thought about infrastructure since 2005

    anewheart2b.jpg


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    jd wrote: »
    Have I got the options right here post Metrolink and Dart Upgrade? I assume Kildare line Darts would use Heuston "West" and the Phoenix Park Tunnel. Still unclear which services would use Rosslare Line and which would use Dockland Station. I didn't include Luas.

    Yes, that is very good overall map. But I don't think it is quiet as set in stone which services go where as your map would indicate.

    Either the Hazelhatch line or Maynooth line trains could end up going across the loopline bridge or into docklands. Both of those lines are connected to both locations. So it would depend on exactly what they decide to do in terms of junctions, scheduling, etc. I don't think it is set in stone.

    Currently a train from Maynooth/M3 Parkway can technically enter both the Drumcondra line or the Docklands line just before Whitworth Road.

    The Hazelhatch line can only use the Drumcondra line at Whitworth Road and currently the Drumcondra line can only go into Connolly. However it really wouldn't be at all difficult to develop the junction before Whiteworth road to allow Hazelhatch trains to use the Docklands line. And at the other end, it really wouldn't be difficult to have the Drumcondra line also be able to enter an expanded Docklands station (there is already an extension of the Drumcondra line going into the Docklands area not 10 meters from the existing Docklands station).

    This is why I've left the exact likely alignments a bit vague. It is more something for the planners and engineers to work out what makes sense in terms of crossing junctions, signalling, etc.

    Your map may well end up being 100% correct. It makes sense based on current alignments. But with 2bn to play with, I wouldn't assume that there might not be junction enhancements and changes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    McDowell has kindly posted his article on his blog here:


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    whatever they do, if either line is going over the loop bridge, then there are conflicts at Connolly and given Irish Rail's inability to run a reliable service currently, it's only going to be worse with higher frequencies. A big selling point of DU was proper grade-separation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭jd


    Bray Head wrote: »
    McDowell has kindly posted his article on his blog here:

    And tweeted too
    https://twitter.com/SenatorMcDowell/status/983343939506798592


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    loyatemu wrote: »
    whatever they do, if either line is going over the loop bridge, then there are conflicts at Connolly and given Irish Rail's inability to run a reliable service currently, it's only going to be worse with higher frequencies. A big selling point of DU was proper grade-separation.

    The question is though, how much are the conflicts at Connolly a real issue and how much is it down to Irish Rail making them out to be more then they are in order to push the Dart Underground project?

    I mean we heard similar for years about why they couldn't use the PPT, until suddenly they could and now it is going to be the center of the DART expansion plans!

    If you were trying to push the DU project, then it makes absolute sense to downplay the PPT and play up congestion issues at Connolly.

    With the tunnel off the cards for now and 2bn to play with, I've no doubt some alternatives can be worked out.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    jd wrote: »
    Why don't we demolish half the city centre and build an urban motorway like in Birmingham or countless US cities to connect to this new 2nd M50 he wants to build.

    Or lets fill the city with Luas lines given how well they have worked so far.

    What a load of ****e.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    bk wrote: »
    The question is though, how much are the conflicts at Connolly a real issue and how much is it down to Irish Rail making them out to be more then they are in order to push the Dart Underground project?

    I mean we heard similar for years about why they couldn't use the PPT, until suddenly they could and now it is going to be the center of the DART expansion plans!

    If you were trying to push the DU project, then it makes absolute sense to downplay the PPT and play up congestion issues at Connolly.

    With the tunnel off the cards for now and 2bn to play with, I've no doubt some alternatives can be worked out.

    I think the PPT plan is being pushed now because the NTA realise we can't wait for DART Underground to finally be built and using the PPT is a useful stopgap measure until its built. There's no PPT-like alternative routing for Metro North so it makes sense.

    I think some alternatives can be worked out but there still be massive capacity issues along the section between Connolly and Pearse. The only difference this time is there is an alternative Liffey crossing between Glasnevin and Tara (e.g. Metrolink).

    Sooner rather than later DU will have to be built to relieve the section between Connolly and Pearse. Signalling can only do so much and you can't solve the fact that there is only 2 lines across the Liffey with now 6 lines feeding into this from the north if DART services are to be provided on the Nothern, Maynooth and Kildare/PPT lines in addition to intercity services. Something has to give somewhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,385 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    Bray Head wrote: »
    McDowell has kindly posted his article on his blog here:
    McDowell owns 9 Manders Terrace in Ranalagh (see page 27), which is only a meter or two from the track (you can see house number 9 in the bottom right of the image below). The new platform essentially goes right up to his living room window.

    Probably explains his objections!

    dlzWrs9.png


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Well that is what the current 120 million city center re-signalling project is about, it will allow 20 trains per hour per direction through that section.

    So lets imagine you have the following:
    - DART every 10 minutes Hazelhatch to Docklands (this doesn't interfere with the rest so can be ignored).
    - Dart every 10 minutes on the Northern Line across the Loop line
    - Dart every 10 minutes from Maynooth/M3 across the loop line

    A Dart every 10 minutes is only 6 trains per hour per direction. So for the two lines above you are up to only 12 trains per hour per direction across the loop line.

    That is only 12 out of the 20 max, leaving you 8 more slots for longer distance trains.

    And that is all assuming that you continue to want to operate long distance trains across the loop line, which I'm not sure really makes sense.

    - Rosslare trains, terminate at Bray, transfer to DART there.
    - Northern line long distance (Dundalk, Newry, Belfast) terminate at Connolly, transfer to DART at Connolly if you want to head further south, etc.

    I'm not saying that definitely has to happen. But it would be an option and certainly not the end of the world.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Good lord a second M50. Did he not get the memo that 1960's style town planning was complete and utter ****e and destroyed many of the worlds cities
    PT is the only option to maintain a sustainable city in the 21st Century


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Mod: Can we keep this as Metrolink - as announced.

    Dart expansion on the Dart expansion thread. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055630770

    Other Luas and Metro crayon work on the thread opened for that. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860430

    Thank you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,851 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    bk wrote: »
    Well that is what the current 120 million city center re-signalling project is about, it will allow 20 trains per hour per direction through that section.

    So lets imagine you have the following:
    - DART every 10 minutes Hazelhatch to Docklands (this doesn't interfere with the rest so can be ignored).
    - Dart every 10 minutes on the Northern Line across the Loop line
    - Dart every 10 minutes from Maynooth/M3 across the loop line

    A Dart every 10 minutes is only 6 trains per hour per direction. So for the two lines above you are up to only 12 trains per hour per direction across the loop line.

    That is only 12 out of the 20 max, leaving you 8 more slots for longer distance trains.

    And that is all assuming that you continue to want to operate long distance trains across the loop line, which I'm not sure really makes sense.

    - Rosslare trains, terminate at Bray, transfer to DART there.
    - Northern line long distance (Dundalk, Newry, Belfast) terminate at Connolly, transfer to DART at Connolly if you want to head further south, etc.

    I'm not saying that definitely has to happen. But it would be an option and certainly not the end of the world.

    that all sounds reasonable, but a handful of PPT trains going across the Loop Line has caused havoc with the peak time Dart timetable since last year. Every southbound train from Drumcondra has to cross the northbound Dart line and if it's not on schedule you have knock on delays everywhere.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭ignorance is strength


    Shedite27 wrote: »
    McDowell owns 9 Manders Terrace in Ranalagh (see page 27), which is only a meter or two from the track (you can see house number 9 in the bottom right of the image below). The new platform essentially goes right up to his living room window.

    Probably explains his objections!

    dlzWrs9.png

    Nice spot! Did you just speculatively look at the register of members’ interests?

    In fairness, I wouldn’t be thrilled if that were built outside my house.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,193 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Would make you wonder do the other vocal naysayers in the media have similar conflicted interests. I wouldnt like to live there either myself but if you're going to publicly slate a project stating dubious facts you should at least be up front about how it could adversely effect your own interests.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,667 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Shedite27 wrote: »
    McDowell owns 9 Manders Terrace in Ranalagh (see page 27), which is only a meter or two from the track (you can see house number 9 in the bottom right of the image below). The new platform essentially goes right up to his living room window.

    Probably explains his objections!

    dlzWrs9.png

    This post should be posted on his twitter feed with the question had he any vested interests in his objections to the metrolink?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭ignorance is strength


    It’s a rental property, and one whose value might well increase with the metro. I reckon McDowell’s opposition is not principally motivated by that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Queue out the door at DCU today. Na Fianna extremely well represented m


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,166 ✭✭✭plodder


    It’s a rental property, and one whose value might well increase with the metro. I reckon McDowell’s opposition is not principally motivated by that.
    It should have been disclosed regardless.


This discussion has been closed.
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