Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

1…131132134136137…174

Comments

  • #3992
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But does infuse an abortion of a fertilized egg.

    Quote the medical and legal opinion that it is an abortion pill and not an emergency contraceptive.


  • #3993
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    It is straw manning. It is not an abortion pill.

    It's not classed as an abortion pill, but it does act as an abortificant. Is this a case of defining human life as different from the moment of fertilisation?


  • #3994
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Achasanai wrote: »
    It's not classed as an abortion pill, but it does act as an abortificant. Is this a case of defining human life as different from the moment of fertilisation?

    Then you better report it to the DPP and the IMA, because legal and medical opinion is adamant that it is not an abortion pill. But somehow I don't think they will fall for the straw manning either.


  • #3995
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Then you better report it to the DPP and the IMA, because legal and medical opinion is adamant that it is not an abortion pill. But somehow I don't think they will fall for the straw manning either.

    No, I think it's good that legal and medical opinion can give a bit of leeway with regards to the definition of when human life begins, so happy to leave it at that.

    I'm guessing you think the same, considering you seem to be so absolute that there's no abortion taking place when a fertilised egg is terminated.


  • #3996
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Achasanai wrote: »
    No, I think it's good that legal and medical opinion can give a bit of leeway with regards to the definition of when human life begins, so happy to leave it at that.

    I'm guessing you think the same, considering you seem to be so absolute that there's no abortion taking place when a fertilised egg is terminated.

    You can guess away if you like, but legal and medical opinion is not a guess and is pretty clear that the morning after pill is not an abortion.


  • Advertisement
  • #3997
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    You can guess away if you like, but legal and medical opinion is not a guess and is pretty clear that the morning after pill is not an abortion.

    I'll try one last time, so. Can the morning after pill cause the termination of a fertilised egg?


  • #3998
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Achasanai wrote: »
    I'll try one last time, so. Can the morning after pill cause the termination of a fertilised egg?

    You're not really happy are you that the straw manning didn't work and the legal and medical opinion is quite clear it's not an abortion pill.


  • #3999
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,867 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    You're not really happy are you that the straw manning didn't work and the legally and medical opinion is quite clear it's not abortion pill.

    Way to dodge the question.


  • #4000
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Way to dodge the question.

    Begging the question is circular reasoning and a basic logical fallacy. As is straw manning.
    Legally and medically there is no question, the morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill.


  • #4001
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,867 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Legally and medically there is no question, the morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill.

    What in your mind is an abortion?


  • Advertisement
  • #4002
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    What in your mind is an abortion?

    It's nothing to do with me, it's to do with the legal definition of abortion, despite the ad homiem fallacy you keep attempting.
    No I'm not going to google it for you.


  • #4003
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Mod:

    This is going round in circles. Could someone who claims MAP is or isn't abortion provide a substantive explanation as to why that is the case. This means illustrating in detail why it is or is not abortion.

    Non mod:
    As an aside, my own understanding is that the map prevents pregnancy in the first instance and for that reason isn't considered abortion. Happy for someone, anyone, to clarify this matter and resolve the revolving door one way or the other.


  • #4004
    robarmstrong
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭robarmstrong


    https://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/3914/6012/8466/Difference_Between_the_Morning-After_Pill_and_the_Abortion_Pill.pdf

    Those seeking clarification should have a good read of this, quite informative.


  • #4005
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Mod:

    This is going round in circles. Could someone who claims MAP is or isn't abortion provide a substantive explanation as to why that is the case. This means illustrating in detail why it is or is not abortion.

    Non mod:
    As an aside, my own understanding is that the map prevents pregnancy in the first instance and for that reason isn't considered abortion. Happy for someone, anyone, to clarify this matter and resolve the revolving door one way or the other.

    If the following is a legitimate site then MAP is considered abortion by the church, which given this is the Christianity thread would perhaps be the defining definition for some.

    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documents/rc_pa_acdlife_doc_20001031_pillola-giorno-dopo_en.html


  • #4006
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Mod:

    This is going round in circles. Could someone who claims MAP is or isn't abortion provide a substantive explanation as to why that is the case. This means illustrating in detail why it is or is not abortion.

    Non mod:
    As an aside, my own understanding is that the map prevents pregnancy in the first instance and for that reason isn't considered abortion. Happy for someone, anyone, to clarify this matter and resolve the revolving door one way or the other.

    It came up due to a poster defining human life as beginning with conception, but refusing to class the morning after pill as an abortificant. Whether it's legally or medically classed as such (it's not: that's why it's available here) isn't really the salient point as far as I read it. It's more to do with medical and legal disciplines being somewhat liberal in determining ideas such as conception and when human life begins.

    Despite the accusations of 'strawmanning' being thrown around, the point is to attempt to get to the bottom of this. That a pill is available to get rid of a fertilised egg (i.e., according to a previous poster, a human life) means that it's not a contraception (conception has already occured) and is an abortificant.

    Legal and medical opinions (here in Ireland, anyway) obviously agree that it's not an abortificant, but as another poster showed, other areas are definitely not in agreement.


  • #4007
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 9,117 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    keano_afc wrote: »
    And the conscience of a Christian is guided by the word of God. There is no way a Christian can vote for the deliberate killing of God's creation.

    I’ll take my lead from my conscience thanks; not a poster on boards.ie :)


  • #4008
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    Achasanai wrote: »
    It came up due to a poster defining human life as beginning with conception, but refusing to class the morning after pill as an abortificant..

    Well yet again that's another false portrayal.

    It's nothing to do with 'posters' - more ad homiem and straw manning in one.

    Biological science defines the human life cycle beginning at fertilisation.

    The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive, not an abortion pill, that's a medical and legal fact.


  • #4009
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,918 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Well yet again that's another false portrayal.

    It's nothing to do with 'posters' - more ad homiem and straw manning in one.

    Biological science defines the human life cycle beginning at fertilisation.

    The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive, not an abortion pill, that's a medical and legal fact.

    It is legally defined that way alright, but that doesn't make it medically accurate.
    How can it be a contraceptive if it acts by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #4010
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It is legally defined that way alright, but that doesn't make it medically accurate.
    How can it be a contraceptive if it acts by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting?

    So according to you the entire established and qualified medical profession is inaccurate with regard to their assessment of the emergency contraceptive pill and lying, and it's an abortion pill ?

    Well the medical profession will be delighted to know you out qualify them all and that they are inaccurate liars, and that the morning after pill is in fact illegal according to your claims.

    Even planned parenthood the most rapid no limit pro abortion advocate on the planet agree in the link provide a few posts back by a pro abortion poster that it's not an abortion pill and that it's an emergency contraceptive.


  • #4011
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    So according to you the entire established and qualified medical profession is inaccurate with regard to their assessment of the emergency contraceptive pill and lying, and it's an abortion pill ?

    Well the medical profession will be delighted to know you out qualify them all and that they are inaccurate liars, and that the morning after pill is in fact illegal according to your claims.

    Even planned parenthood the most rapid no limit pro abortion advocate on the planet agree in the link provide a few posts back by a pro abortion poster that it's not an abortion pill and that it's an emergency contraceptive.

    Bob can I ask if your posting as a Christian in this case?

    I'm not a practising Christian but can find plenty of Catholic and Christian sites that says MAP is abortion.


  • Advertisement
  • #4012
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Bob can I ask if your posting as a Christian in this case?

    I'm not a practising Christian but can find plenty of Catholic and Christian sites that says MAP is abortion.

    I've already made it clear, no religious argument or belief is required to be pro human life and anti abortion.


  • #4013
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I've already made it clear, no religious argument is required to be pro human life and anti abortion.

    I'm not saying there is, and I'm pro choice by the way, but this is a thread discussing a Christians ability to vote for abortion or not. I just find it strange that there are people who identify as Christian would support your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the hierarchies of most Christian religions state it is.


  • #4014
    Achasanai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 730 ✭✭✭Achasanai


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    Well yet again that's another false portrayal.

    It's nothing to do with 'posters' - more ad homiem and straw manning in one.

    Biological science defines the human life cycle beginning at fertilisation.

    The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive, not an abortion pill, that's a medical and legal fact.

    There are no straw men or ad hominem arguments being thrown around: it's a discussion board and based on your definition of when life begins, someone quite rightly asked whether this applies to the morning after pill. That the morning after pill absolutely can expel a fertilised egg - something which you have said is a human life - can easily be described as an abortificant. Legal and medical ideas on all kinds of matters have changed over time. What's bizarre is somebody who is so vociferously against abortion has seemingly no problem with the morning after pill. A life is a life, no?
    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    I've already made it clear, no religious argument or belief is required to be pro human life and anti abortion.

    And vice-versa.
    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I'm not saying there is, and I'm pro choice by the way, but this is a thread discussing a Christians ability to vote for abortion or not. I just find it strange that there are people who identify as Christian would support your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the hierarchies of most Christian religions state it is.

    I don't get it either. I would've thought anything that terminates a fertilised egg would be a complete no-no for somebody who has defined life as beginning with - yep - a fertilised egg.


  • #4015
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,918 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    So according to you the entire established and qualified medical profession is inaccurate with regard to their assessment of the emergency contraceptive pill and lying, and it's an abortion pill ?

    Well the medical profession will be delighted to know you out qualify them all and that they are inaccurate liars, and that the morning after pill is in fact illegal according to your claims.

    You're making the unfounded assumption that everyone else sees fertilization as being as deeply significant as you do. They don't.

    For people who have no issue with abortion, which is the premature ending of a pregnancy, then defining the MAP as emergency contraception rather than ending a diagnosed pregnancy is not a contradiction. The latter requires extra procedures like a scan to ensure the pregnancy is not ectopic, so the distinction makes sense from a medical PoV.

    But for someone who says that a fertilized egg is a new person, and that killing it is the same as killing a child, then it makes a huge difference whether the MAP even potentially leads to the death of a fertilized egg.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #4016
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    I'm not saying there is, and I'm pro choice by the way, but this is a thread discussing a Christians ability to vote for abortion or not. I just find it strange that there are people who identify as Christian would support your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the hierarchies of most Christian religions state it is.

    So let me get this straight, you want Christians to vote for abortions and you want Christians to ignore the fact that the morning after pill is legally and medically emergency contraception, and not an abortion pill ?


  • #4017
    Bob_Marley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 626 ✭✭✭Bob_Marley


    volchitsa wrote: »
    You're making the unfounded assumption that everyone else sees fertilization as being as deeply significant as you do. They don't.

    For people who have no issue with abortion, which is the premature ending of a pregnancy, then defining the MAP as emergency contraception rather than ending a diagnosed pregnancy is not a contradiction. The latter requires extra procedures like a scan to ensure the pregnancy is not ectopic, so the distinction makes sense from a medical PoV.

    But for someone who says that a fertilized egg is a new person, and that killing it is the same as killing a child, then it makes a huge difference whether the MAP even potentially leads to the death of a fertilized egg.

    There are simple established biological, medical and legal facts you cannot ever change or twist no matter how hard you try to mislead and straw man.
    But knock yourself out misrepresenting and straw manning.
    These facts will continue to be posted every time you do.

    Biologically and scientifically the human life cycle begins at fertilisation.

    The Morning after pill is both medically and legally an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill, and every single piece of proper pharmacy, medical, and legal advice in Ireland goes to great pains to explain that fact.


  • #4018
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 6,583 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    So let me get this straight, you want Christians to vote for abortions and you want Christians to ignore the fact that the morning after pill is legally and medically emergency contraception, and not an abortion pill ?

    Don't know where your jumping to the conclusion that I want people to vote one way or the other, they should vote as per their beliefs.

    I'm not stating that MAP is abortion in my opinion.

    I'm pointing out that people who have posted that they are against abortion due to their faith and the teaching of the leaders of their faith are a bit hypocritical to be supporting your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the religious leaders of their faith have stated that it is.


  • #4019
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,918 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Bob_Marley wrote: »
    There are simple established biological, medical and legal facts you cannot ever change or twist no matter how hard you try to mislead and straw man.
    But knock yourself out misrepresenting and straw manning.
    These facts will continue to be posted every time you do.

    Biologically and scientifically the human life cycle begins at fertilisation.

    The Morning after pill is both medically and legally an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill, and every single piece of proper pharmacy, medical, and legal advice in Ireland goes to great pains to explain that fact.

    The pharmaceutical companies that commercialize them are, of course, very keen to play down any anti-implantation effect, but it doesn't matter : let's take another form of emergency contraception, the IUD (coil) where it is accepted that a part of its action is definitely by preventing implantation of the fertilized egg :
    "The very high effectiveness of copper-releasing IUDs as emergency contraceptives implies that they must also prevent some pregnancies by post-fertilization effects such as prevention of implantation" (Wikipedia) - does the fact that it is legally and medically defined as EC make this quoted statement untrue?

    And on the actual question here, should the IUD not be redefined to take its abortifacient aspects into account, and banned as killing babies fertilized eggs?

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #4020
    laoch na mona
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    yes because we are voting for choice not mandatory abortions religion has no place in law


  • Advertisement
  • #4021
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


Advertisement