Can a Christian vote for unlimited abortion?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

But does infuse an abortion of a fertilized egg.

Quote the medical and legal opinion that it is an abortion pill and not an emergency contraceptive.

Bob_Marley wrote: »

It is straw manning. It is not an abortion pill.

It's not classed as an abortion pill, but it does act as an abortificant. Is this a case of defining human life as different from the moment of fertilisation?

Achasanai wrote: »

It's not classed as an abortion pill, but it does act as an abortificant. Is this a case of defining human life as different from the moment of fertilisation?

Then you better report it to the DPP and the IMA, because legal and medical opinion is adamant that it is not an abortion pill. But somehow I don't think they will fall for the straw manning either.

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Then you better report it to the DPP and the IMA, because legal and medical opinion is adamant that it is not an abortion pill. But somehow I don't think they will fall for the straw manning either.

No, I think it's good that legal and medical opinion can give a bit of leeway with regards to the definition of when human life begins, so happy to leave it at that.

I'm guessing you think the same, considering you seem to be so absolute that there's no abortion taking place when a fertilised egg is terminated.

Achasanai wrote: »

No, I think it's good that legal and medical opinion can give a bit of leeway with regards to the definition of when human life begins, so happy to leave it at that.

I'm guessing you think the same, considering you seem to be so absolute that there's no abortion taking place when a fertilised egg is terminated.

You can guess away if you like, but legal and medical opinion is not a guess and is pretty clear that the morning after pill is not an abortion.

Bob_Marley wrote: »

You can guess away if you like, but legal and medical opinion is not a guess and is pretty clear that the morning after pill is not an abortion.

I'll try one last time, so. Can the morning after pill cause the termination of a fertilised egg?

Achasanai wrote: »

I'll try one last time, so. Can the morning after pill cause the termination of a fertilised egg?

You're not really happy are you that the straw manning didn't work and the legal and medical opinion is quite clear it's not an abortion pill.

Timberrrrrrrr

Bob_Marley wrote: »

You're not really happy are you that the straw manning didn't work and the legally and medical opinion is quite clear it's not abortion pill.

Way to dodge the question.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Way to dodge the question.

Begging the question is circular reasoning and a basic logical fallacy. As is straw manning.
Legally and medically there is no question, the morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill.

Timberrrrrrrr

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Legally and medically there is no question, the morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill.

What in your mind is an abortion?

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

What in your mind is an abortion?

It's nothing to do with me, it's to do with the legal definition of abortion, despite the ad homiem fallacy you keep attempting.
No I'm not going to google it for you.

Turtwig

Mod:

This is going round in circles. Could someone who claims MAP is or isn't abortion provide a substantive explanation as to why that is the case. This means illustrating in detail why it is or is not abortion.

Non mod:
As an aside, my own understanding is that the map prevents pregnancy in the first instance and for that reason isn't considered abortion. Happy for someone, anyone, to clarify this matter and resolve the revolving door one way or the other.

robarmstrong

https://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/3914/6012/8466/Difference_Between_the_Morning-After_Pill_and_the_Abortion_Pill.pdf

Those seeking clarification should have a good read of this, quite informative.

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod:

This is going round in circles. Could someone who claims MAP is or isn't abortion provide a substantive explanation as to why that is the case. This means illustrating in detail why it is or is not abortion.

Non mod:
As an aside, my own understanding is that the map prevents pregnancy in the first instance and for that reason isn't considered abortion. Happy for someone, anyone, to clarify this matter and resolve the revolving door one way or the other.

If the following is a legitimate site then MAP is considered abortion by the church, which given this is the Christianity thread would perhaps be the defining definition for some.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documents/rc_pa_acdlife_doc_20001031_pillola-giorno-dopo_en.html

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod:

This is going round in circles. Could someone who claims MAP is or isn't abortion provide a substantive explanation as to why that is the case. This means illustrating in detail why it is or is not abortion.

Non mod:
As an aside, my own understanding is that the map prevents pregnancy in the first instance and for that reason isn't considered abortion. Happy for someone, anyone, to clarify this matter and resolve the revolving door one way or the other.

It came up due to a poster defining human life as beginning with conception, but refusing to class the morning after pill as an abortificant. Whether it's legally or medically classed as such (it's not: that's why it's available here) isn't really the salient point as far as I read it. It's more to do with medical and legal disciplines being somewhat liberal in determining ideas such as conception and when human life begins.

Despite the accusations of 'strawmanning' being thrown around, the point is to attempt to get to the bottom of this. That a pill is available to get rid of a fertilised egg (i.e., according to a previous poster, a human life) means that it's not a contraception (conception has already occured) and is an abortificant.

Legal and medical opinions (here in Ireland, anyway) obviously agree that it's not an abortificant, but as another poster showed, other areas are definitely not in agreement.

keano_afc wrote: »

And the conscience of a Christian is guided by the word of God. There is no way a Christian can vote for the deliberate killing of God's creation.

I’ll take my lead from my conscience thanks; not a poster on boards.ie

Achasanai wrote: »

It came up due to a poster defining human life as beginning with conception, but refusing to class the morning after pill as an abortificant..

Well yet again that's another false portrayal.

It's nothing to do with 'posters' - more ad homiem and straw manning in one.

Biological science defines the human life cycle beginning at fertilisation.

The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive, not an abortion pill, that's a medical and legal fact.

volchitsa

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well yet again that's another false portrayal.

It's nothing to do with 'posters' - more ad homiem and straw manning in one.

Biological science defines the human life cycle beginning at fertilisation.

The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive, not an abortion pill, that's a medical and legal fact.

It is legally defined that way alright, but that doesn't make it medically accurate.
How can it be a contraceptive if it acts by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting?

volchitsa wrote: »

It is legally defined that way alright, but that doesn't make it medically accurate.
How can it be a contraceptive if it acts by preventing the fertilized egg from implanting?

So according to you the entire established and qualified medical profession is inaccurate with regard to their assessment of the emergency contraceptive pill and lying, and it's an abortion pill ?

Well the medical profession will be delighted to know you out qualify them all and that they are inaccurate liars, and that the morning after pill is in fact illegal according to your claims.

Even planned parenthood the most rapid no limit pro abortion advocate on the planet agree in the link provide a few posts back by a pro abortion poster that it's not an abortion pill and that it's an emergency contraceptive.

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So according to you the entire established and qualified medical profession is inaccurate with regard to their assessment of the emergency contraceptive pill and lying, and it's an abortion pill ?

Well the medical profession will be delighted to know you out qualify them all and that they are inaccurate liars, and that the morning after pill is in fact illegal according to your claims.

Even planned parenthood the most rapid no limit pro abortion advocate on the planet agree in the link provide a few posts back by a pro abortion poster that it's not an abortion pill and that it's an emergency contraceptive.

Bob can I ask if your posting as a Christian in this case?

I'm not a practising Christian but can find plenty of Catholic and Christian sites that says MAP is abortion.

DubInMeath wrote: »

Bob can I ask if your posting as a Christian in this case?

I'm not a practising Christian but can find plenty of Catholic and Christian sites that says MAP is abortion.

I've already made it clear, no religious argument or belief is required to be pro human life and anti abortion.

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already made it clear, no religious argument is required to be pro human life and anti abortion.

I'm not saying there is, and I'm pro choice by the way, but this is a thread discussing a Christians ability to vote for abortion or not. I just find it strange that there are people who identify as Christian would support your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the hierarchies of most Christian religions state it is.

Bob_Marley wrote: »

Well yet again that's another false portrayal.

It's nothing to do with 'posters' - more ad homiem and straw manning in one.

Biological science defines the human life cycle beginning at fertilisation.

The morning after pill is an emergency contraceptive, not an abortion pill, that's a medical and legal fact.

There are no straw men or ad hominem arguments being thrown around: it's a discussion board and based on your definition of when life begins, someone quite rightly asked whether this applies to the morning after pill. That the morning after pill absolutely can expel a fertilised egg - something which you have said is a human life - can easily be described as an abortificant. Legal and medical ideas on all kinds of matters have changed over time. What's bizarre is somebody who is so vociferously against abortion has seemingly no problem with the morning after pill. A life is a life, no?

Bob_Marley wrote: »

I've already made it clear, no religious argument or belief is required to be pro human life and anti abortion.

And vice-versa.

DubInMeath wrote: »

I'm not saying there is, and I'm pro choice by the way, but this is a thread discussing a Christians ability to vote for abortion or not. I just find it strange that there are people who identify as Christian would support your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the hierarchies of most Christian religions state it is.

I don't get it either. I would've thought anything that terminates a fertilised egg would be a complete no-no for somebody who has defined life as beginning with - yep - a fertilised egg.

volchitsa

Bob_Marley wrote: »

So according to you the entire established and qualified medical profession is inaccurate with regard to their assessment of the emergency contraceptive pill and lying, and it's an abortion pill ?

Well the medical profession will be delighted to know you out qualify them all and that they are inaccurate liars, and that the morning after pill is in fact illegal according to your claims.

You're making the unfounded assumption that everyone else sees fertilization as being as deeply significant as you do. They don't.

For people who have no issue with abortion, which is the premature ending of a pregnancy, then defining the MAP as emergency contraception rather than ending a diagnosed pregnancy is not a contradiction. The latter requires extra procedures like a scan to ensure the pregnancy is not ectopic, so the distinction makes sense from a medical PoV.

But for someone who says that a fertilized egg is a new person, and that killing it is the same as killing a child, then it makes a huge difference whether the MAP even potentially leads to the death of a fertilized egg.

DubInMeath wrote: »

I'm not saying there is, and I'm pro choice by the way, but this is a thread discussing a Christians ability to vote for abortion or not. I just find it strange that there are people who identify as Christian would support your statement that the MAP is not abortion when the hierarchies of most Christian religions state it is.

So let me get this straight, you want Christians to vote for abortions and you want Christians to ignore the fact that the morning after pill is legally and medically emergency contraception, and not an abortion pill ?

volchitsa wrote: »

You're making the unfounded assumption that everyone else sees fertilization as being as deeply significant as you do. They don't.

For people who have no issue with abortion, which is the premature ending of a pregnancy, then defining the MAP as emergency contraception rather than ending a diagnosed pregnancy is not a contradiction. The latter requires extra procedures like a scan to ensure the pregnancy is not ectopic, so the distinction makes sense from a medical PoV.

But for someone who says that a fertilized egg is a new person, and that killing it is the same as killing a child, then it makes a huge difference whether the MAP even potentially leads to the death of a fertilized egg.

There are simple established biological, medical and legal facts you cannot ever change or twist no matter how hard you try to mislead and straw man.
But knock yourself out misrepresenting and straw manning.
These facts will continue to be posted every time you do.

Biologically and scientifically the human life cycle begins at fertilisation.

The Morning after pill is both medically and legally an emergency contraceptive and not an abortion pill, and every single piece of proper pharmacy, medical, and legal advice in Ireland goes to great pains to explain that fact.