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Abortion - Report of the Joint Committee on the Eighth Amendment of the Constitution

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Comments

  • #1082
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,033 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    J C wrote: »
    ... they may well, for some women ... but does this justify relieving the symptoms by killing the unborn human being that is the cause.
    Over-stating any negatives from pregnancy doesn't do the credibility of the pro-abortion argument any favours.

    Who has argued that this is a valid reason to procure an abortion?


  • #1083
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,448 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    J C wrote: »
    It's certainly no more stunning than arguing that because of morning sickness and stretch marks that unborn children should be killed with impunity up to 12 weeks ... and beyond on request.
    The two issues aren't mirror images of each other. Literally nobody has said that someone should end a pregnancy because they might get stretch marks. Never mind force them to end one for that reason.

    The point is that being pregnant is not a matter of sitting around for a few months while the fetus does all the work, so forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will is a massive imposition on them.

    And someone who can chirpily announce that, "Hey never mind that your rapist is going to become a daddy thanks to your enforced pregnancy, sure look on the bright side, at least you will have shiny skin and big boobs for a few months" is tin-eared to a rare degree.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1084
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    that may be but realistically it's a risk we are going to have to take, because many of us feel the current proposals go way to far and we want to try to remove any possibility of them being introduced. for us, voting no is the way to do that.

    So you're happy to pay for the lives of the unborn with the health and welfare of women. You're happy to compromise on the health care that women get, to ensure that other women have to travel for abortions, because as long as they don't have them here in Ireland some "greater good" is served.
    God forbid you would just lobby for change to the legislation, because in that might mean less women suffer unnecessarily


  • #1085
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I think you'll find it's more a case of trying to cheer people up.

    Bigger boobs are not a genuine benefit, not for the woman anyway. As you would know if you realized how just fking painful they are when they're getting that way. It's actually one of the first symptoms of pregnancy, usually well before morning sickness kicks in. Are you seriously saying you have lived with a woman during several pregnancies and she either never said - or you just didnt listen? - to how unpleasant that is for the woman?
    She certainly didn't complain then ... but I'll ask her now ...
    ... and she tells me that in the first trimester she felt a bit sick ... in the second trimester she felt great and 'on top of the world' ... and in the third trimester she felt like she was slightly obese and 'bloated'.

    I asked her to put it in terms that a man could understand ... and she said that in the third trimester it felt something like a combination of a 'bad back' and a bloated stomach from over-indulgence in eating and drinking.
    ... so it's certainly doesn't justify killing any human being to be rid of it.

    Most people with chronic back pain or obesity issues would sing for joy if they could be re-assured it would be all over in 3 months . ... and with a few hours painful workout in a gym, at the end.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    Perhaps she's just a saint.
    ... or perhaps she is just your average woman, who finds herself pregnant and ethically sees her pregnancy through to term, on the basis that she cannot countenance killing her own child.

    There is a natural instinct in men to be protective of women and to believe them ... but if feminism keep 'crying wolf' and exaggerating various issues ... them men (and other women) may very well ignore them or not believe them ... when they have a really serious problem.


  • #1086
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »

    ... or perhaps she is just your average woman, who finds herself pregnant and ethically sees her pregnancy through to term, on the basis that she cannot countenance killing her own child.

    so are you saying that she DIDNT want to be pregnant?
    that she DIDNT want a child?


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  • #1087
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The two issues aren't mirror images of each other. Literally nobody has said that someone should end a pregnancy because they might get stretch marks. Never mind force them to end one for that reason.

    The point is that being pregnant is not a matter of sitting around for a few months while the fetus does all the work, so forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will is a massive imposition on them.
    How is it a massive imposition?

    Making them parent their baby after it is born would indeed be a massive (and unnecessary) imposition.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    And someone who can chirpily announce that, "Hey never mind that your rapist is going to become a daddy thanks to your enforced pregnancy, sure look on the bright side, at least you will have shiny skin and big boobs for a few months" is tin-eared to a rare degree.
    Nobody would do so.

    Where a rape occurs, it is standard medical practice to offer the MAP to the victim ... so pregnancy or abortion shouldn't be an issue after a rape.


  • #1088
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,448 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    J C wrote: »
    She certainly didn't complain then ... but I'll ask her now ...
    ... and she tells me that in the first trimester she felt a bit sick ... in the second trimester she felt great ... and in the third trimester she felt like she was slightly obese.

    I asked her to put it in terms that a man could understand ... and she said that it felt like a combination of a 'bad back' and a bloated stomach from over-indulged in eating and drinking.
    ... so it's certainly doesn't justify killing any human being to be rid of it.
    It's been explained to you why that's not the point. It's not the symptoms of pregnancy that are, in themselves, so bad as to warrant ending the pregnancy, it's that an enforced pregnancy is not a minor issue.

    Have you never wondered whether if she was pregnant after a rape she, and you, might not find the same symptoms so easy to minimize?

    A wanted pregnancy is one thing, an unwanted one entirely different.
    Most people with chronic back pain or obesity issues would sing for joy if they could be re-assured it would be all over in 3 months.
    Well that isnt true either, my back is wrecked since my first pregnancy over 20 years ago, and I know lots of women are like that.

    And one of my sisters left the maternity in a wheelchair. She got better - until her second - but occasionally women can be left permanently crippled.

    Again, a risk people put up with, when they want to have a baby - but not just a minor inconvenience like not getting a seat on the bus. Enforced pregnancy is a human rights abuse.
    ... or perhaps she is just your average woman, who finds herself pregnant and ethically sees her pregnancy through to term, on the basis that she cannot countenance killing her own child.
    You're confusing wanted and unwanted pregnancies again.
    Think of that hypothetical rape again, somehow I'm not too sure you would be pushing her to have her rapist's child. Would you?

    Maybe I'm wrong, and you'd be telling her that she should be thrilled to be pregnant with another man's child - after all with her big boobs and shiny hair you will really fancy her. Every cloud, eh?

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1089
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bubblypop wrote: »
    so are you saying that she DIDNT want to be pregnant?
    that she DIDNT want a child?
    I didn't say whether the hypothetical woman wanted to be pregnant or not.
    The point is that whether a woman 'wants' to be pregnant or not, most mothers go through with their pregnancy ... and they do so because, the temporary discomfort that they may experience doesn't justify taking the life of their unborn child.


  • #1090
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,448 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    J C wrote: »
    How is it a massive imposition?

    Making them parent their baby after it is born would indeed be a massive (and unnecessary) imposition.

    Nobody would do so.

    Where a rape occurs, it is standard medical practice to offer the MAP to the victim ... so pregnancy or abortion shouldn't be an issue after a rape.

    You realize the MAP doesnt have anything like the effocacy of the pill, right?
    And also that anyone for whom the pill is not recommended cannot take the MAP either?

    And of course you're assuming that all rapes involve a single incident of a stranger attacking a woman unexpectedly, when in fact many are through manipulation or other form of abuse, with multiple acts of unwanted intercourse.

    The MAP doesnt work in those cases, in fact it can make unplanned pregnancy more likely, because it wrecks your cycle for a while, making it hard to know when fertility is highest.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1091
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,448 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    J C wrote: »
    I didn't say whether the hypothetical woman wanted to be pregnant or not.
    The point is that whether a woman 'wants' to be pregnant or not, most mothers go through with their pregnancy ... and they do so because, the temporary discomfort that they may experience doesn't justify taking the life of their unborn child.

    No, I disagree. Most women in Ireland nowadays, when they continue the pregnancy to the end, it is because they want to do so.

    Whether they initially planned to be pregnant or not. That is not the same thing.
    And that is the point about choice. The vast majority of women in Ireland already have abortion on demand available to them, but choose not to avail of it.

    And an unplanned pregnancy is not necessarily an unwanted one.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



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  • #1092
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,762 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    So you're happy to pay for the lives of the unborn with the health and welfare of women. You're happy to compromise on the health care that women get, to ensure that other women have to travel for abortions, because as long as they don't have them here in Ireland some "greater good" is served.

    i'm not happy to compromise on the health care women get, but the reality is i have no choice. as i'm against abortion on demand and do not want to see it introduced in ireland, i have no option but to vote no to try and insure it won't be introduced. i understand you won't like that but it's how i feel.
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    God forbid you would just lobby for change to the legislation, because in that might mean less women suffer unnecessarily

    if lobbying for change in the legislation was guaranteed to bare fruit and prevent abortion on demand then i'd think many of us would probably vote repeal and would lobby. sadly though i reccan it wouldn't and therefore i cannot vote repeal. i'm not interested in making people suffer but as i believe the unborn should continue to have a right to life before 12 weeks and i believe that should remain to be enshrined within the constitution, i have to try and insure such happens via voting no to repeal.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1093
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    I asked her to put it in terms that a man could understand ... and she said that in the third trimester it felt something like a combination of a 'bad back' and a bloated stomach from over-indulgence in eating and drinking.


    Okay - now I believe that you are either making up your wife, and I’d hate to think that, or for some reason she doesn’t want to tell you the truth, and I’d hate to think that too, or she is literally one of those extremely rare people who have symptomless pregnancies, y’know like the ones who don’t know they’re pregnant until they have contractions. If she was willing to post online I think I’d believe the latter. Otherwise....

    Also, you never answered, are you from the US?

    Having had three wanted pregnancies I can tell you that the positives are all connected to the excitement and anticipation of having baby at the end of the nine months. That excitement and anticipation can work wonders at lessening the impact of worst of the symptoms. Even then I’d still say pregnancy sucks, and I’ve never found anyone in my wide circle of Mum friends who would tell a different story, though it might take two glasses of wine for them to admit it.


  • #1094
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    volchitsa wrote: »
    It's been explained to you why that's not the point. It's not the symptoms of pregnancy that are, in themselves, so bad as to warrant ending the pregnancy, it's that an enforced pregnancy is not a minor issue.

    Have you never wondered whether if she was pregnant after a rape she, and you, might not find the same symptoms so easy to minimize?

    A wanted pregnancy is one thing, an unwanted one entirely different.
    Please stop conflating rape, with other unwanted pregnancies. Rape is a separate issue ... and the risk of pregnancy after rape is addressed by the MAP.
    ... I'm glad that you have admitted that the symptoms of pregnancy don't justify abortion ... and are not terribly uncomfortable anyway.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    Well that isnt true either, my back is wrecked since my first pregnancy over 20 years ago, and I know lots of women are like that.
    ... and my back is wrecked too ... from the various adventures and misadventures of life ... and I wouldn't change a bit of it, even if I could.
    volchitsa wrote: »
    And one of my sisters left the maternity in a wheelchair. She got better - until her second - but occasionally women can be left permanently crippled.
    All kinds of medical complications can arise with anything, including abortions.

    If women are raped and forced to carry any resulting pregnancy to term this would be a human rights issue ... but this isn't why the 8th is being repealed.
    Like I have said, the MAP prevents any pregnancy resulting form rape.


  • #1095
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,033 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    J C wrote: »
    Please stop conflating rape, with other unwanted pregnancies. Rape is a separate issue ... and the risk of pregnancy after rape is addressed by the MAP.
    ... I'm glad that you have admitted that the symptoms of pregnancy don't justify abortion ... and are not terribly uncomfortable anyway.

    ... and my back is wrecked too ... from the various adventures and misadventures of life ... and I wouldn't change a bit of it, even if I could.

    All kinds of medical complications can arise with anything, including abortions.

    If women are raped and forced to carry any resulting pregnancy to term this would be a human rights issue ... but this isn't why the 8th is being repealed.
    Like I have said, the MAP prevents any pregnancy resulting form rape.

    Lies, Lies and yet more lies from you.


  • #1096
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,448 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    J C wrote: »
    Please stop conflating rape, with other unwanted pregnancies. Rape is a separate issue ... and the risk of pregnancy after rape is addressed by the MAP.
    ... I'm glad that you have admitted that the symptoms of pregnancy don't justify abortion ... and are not terribly uncomfortable anyway.

    ... and my back is wrecked too ... from the various adventures and misadventures of life ... and I wouldn't change a bit of it, even if I could.

    All kinds of medical complications can arise with anything, including abortions.
    And enforced abortion would be just as bad as enforced pregnancy.
    The problem is you are ignoring the enforced bit, when in fact that is crucial.
    If women are raped and forced to carry any resulting pregnancy to term this would be a human rights issue ... but this isn't why the 8th is being repealed.
    Like I have said, the MAP prevents any pregnancy resulting form rape.
    Except yes it is, among other things. And no, the MAP does not prevent any pregnancy, never mind any resulting from rape. It merely reduces the risk of pregnancy.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #1097
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Lies, Lies and yet more lies from you.
    You protest too much!!


  • #1098
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,863 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    J C wrote: »
    Like I have said, the MAP prevents any pregnancy resulting form rape.

    Why not just tell us the female body has ways of shutting down that sort of thing while you're at it?

    And why are you OK with killing unborn babies before implantation?


  • #1099
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »
    I didn't say whether the hypothetical woman wanted to be pregnant or not.
    The point is that whether a woman 'wants' to be pregnant or not, most mothers go through with their pregnancy ... and they do so because, the temporary discomfort that they may experience doesn't justify taking the life of their unborn child.

    when did she turn into a hypothetical woman?
    you said you asked her about her pregnancy, presumably you were talking about a real life woman.
    I presumed your wife/ partner?


  • #1100
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    i'm not happy to compromise on the health care women get, but the reality is i have no choice. as i'm against abortion on demand and do not want to see it introduced in ireland, i have no option but to vote no to try and insure it won't be introduced. i understand you won't like that but it's how i feel.


    It's not about me or anyone else liking it tbh, it's about reconciling the fact that your moral stance, is actively compromising (potentially) half the population, in order to ensure that abortions don't happen here (not that Irish abortions don't happen, to be clear) how is that serving a greater good? How can you refer to a greater good reconcile yourself with the idea that you are compromising the many, to "save" the few.


  • #1101
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »
    Please stop conflating rape, with other unwanted pregnancies. Rape is a separate issue ... and the risk of pregnancy after rape is addressed by the MAP.

    Like I have said, the MAP prevents any pregnancy resulting form rape.

    you do know not every woman can take the MAP?
    I cannot


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  • #1102
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    JDD wrote: »
    I asked her to put it in terms that a man could understand ... and she said that in the third trimester it felt something like a combination of a 'bad back' and a bloated stomach from over-indulgence in eating and drinking.


    Okay - now I believe that you are either making up your wife, and I’d hate to think that, or for some reason she doesn’t want to tell you the truth, and I’d hate to think that too, or she is literally one of those extremely rare people who have symptomless pregnancies, y’know like the ones who don’t know they’re pregnant until they have contractions. If she was willing to post online I think I’d believe the latter. Otherwise....
    She is sitting beside me and somewhat bemused by your belief that she doesn't exist ... or is some kind of rare 'unicorn'!!:)
    JDD wrote: »
    Also, you never answered, are you from the US?
    I don't care where you come from ... and neither should you care where I come from.
    JDD wrote: »
    Having had three wanted pregnancies I can tell you that the positives are all connected to the excitement and anticipation of having baby at the end of the nine months. That excitement and anticipation can work wonders at lessening the impact of worst of the symptoms. Even then I’d still say pregnancy sucks, and I’ve never found anyone in my wide circle of Mum friends who would tell a different story, though it might take two glasses of wine for them to admit it.
    ... they probably also don't admit that the sex was great when they were pregnant either ... people can have very selective recall alright.;)


  • #1103
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bubblypop wrote: »
    when did she turn into a hypothetical woman?
    you said you asked her about her pregnancy, presumably you were talking about a real life woman.
    I presumed your wife/ partner?
    I was talking about women in general, like those on the bump website.


  • #1104
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,174 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    J C wrote: »
    She certainly didn't complain then ... but I'll ask her now ...
    ... and she tells me that in the first trimester she felt a bit sick ... in the second trimester she felt great and 'on top of the world' ... and in the third trimester she felt like she was slightly obese and 'bloated'.

    I asked her to put it in terms that a man could understand ... and she said that in the third trimester it felt something like a combination of a 'bad back' and a bloated stomach from over-indulgence in eating and drinking.
    ... so it's certainly doesn't justify killing any human being to be rid of it.

    Most people with chronic back pain or obesity issues would sing for joy if they could be re-assured it would be all over in 3 months . ... and with a few hours painful workout in a gym, at the end.

    ... or perhaps she is just your average woman, who finds herself pregnant and ethically sees her pregnancy through to term, on the basis that she cannot countenance killing her own child.

    There is a natural instinct in men to be protective of women and to believe them ... but if feminism keep 'crying wolf' and exaggerating various issues ... them men (and other women) may very well ignore them or not believe them ... when they have a really serious problem.

    this is your full post.
    doesn't look like you were talking about an average woman on the 'bump' website.
    sounds like you were talking about your partner.
    so, i will ask again, did she want to be pregnant? did she want to have a child?


  • #1105
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,033 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    J C wrote: »
    You protest too much!!

    Nope im pointing out your blatant lies!


  • #1106
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bubblypop wrote: »
    this is your full post.
    doesn't look like you were talking about an average woman on the 'bump' website.
    sounds like you were talking about your partner.
    so, i will ask again, did she want to be pregnant? did she want to have a child?
    Yes she wanted to be pregnant.


  • #1107
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Nope im pointing out your blatant lies!
    You protest too much!!

    You're long on accusation and short on proof.


  • #1108
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    bubblypop wrote: »
    you do know not every woman can take the MAP?
    I cannot
    Then you also cannot take the abortion pill ... that is supposed to be the reason for the 12 weeks abortion on demand proposal.


  • #1109
    JDD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭JDD


    I wouldn’t normally care JC, your views are your views. Except this is a very widely read Irish based discussion forum. And the topic relates to an impending vote on the Irish constitution. And there has been accusations on both sides - though mostly against the pro-life side - of campaign funding being sourced in the the US. So in this particular instance I do believe your nationality is relevant to the debate.

    Can I ask you some questions?

    1. Do you believe the right to life starts at conception or implantation?
    2. If implantation, why at that point and not before?
    3. If conception are you against the Pill, the Morning After Pill, and IVF treatment?
    4. If a woman voiced her intention to obtain an abortion in another jurisdiction, would you be in favor of withdrawing her passport to prevent her from doing so?


  • #1110
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,033 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    J C wrote: »
    You protest too much!!

    You're long on accusation and short on proof.

    Here's your proof right here!
    J C wrote: »
    Rape is a separate issue ... and the risk of pregnancy after rape is addressed by the MAP.

    Like I have said, the MAP prevents any pregnancy resulting form rape.

    It has been pointed out to you several times they

    A: not all women can take MAP

    B: If someone is being repeatedly raped/abused over the years by a relative/family friend they cannot go and get the MAP everyt8me.

    You choose to if it's these points because it blows your whole "take the MAP intake situations" out of the water so you continue to post these lies as highlighted above!


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  • #1111
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    JDD wrote: »
    I wouldn’t normally care JC, your views are your views. Except this is a very widely read Irish based discussion forum. And the topic relates to an impending vote on the Irish constitution. And there has been accusations on both sides - though mostly against the pro-life side - of campaign funding being sourced in the the US. So in this particular instance I do believe your nationality is relevant to the debate.

    Can I ask you some questions?

    1. Do you believe the right to life starts at conception or implantation?
    Human life starts at fertilisation.
    2. If implantation, why at that point and not before?
    N/A
    3. If conception are you against the Pill, the Morning After Pill, and IVF treatment?
    I accept that they are legally on the boundary between contraception and abortion - and therefore are legal under the 8th.
    4. If a woman voiced her intention to obtain an abortion in another jurisdiction, would you be in favor of withdrawing her passport to prevent her from doing so?
    No ... just like I wouldn't advocate the withdrawal of a passport from somebody declaring that they were travelling to Spain to attend a bull fight ... or somebody declaring that they were going to Holland to be euthanized. I accept that people can legally travel to other jurisdictions and avail of lawful products and services, when they are there.
    Answers in red above.


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