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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #6692
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    retro:electro wrote: »
    Eh last time checked it wasn’t a crime to touch someone’s thigh. If he asked her to remove it and she relented, then yes that is a violation. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water and call for all casual contact to be ceased. If you don’t know the difference between how inappropriate it is to touch someone’s boob vs a casual touch on a thigh mid then I’m afraid I can’t help you there.
    And I’m not a Feminist. Old school yes, but by today’s standards no.


    Consent works both ways.

    No woman has the right to put her hand anywhere on a stranger, the man didnt want her hand there so he removed it.

    You cant have one standard of rules for men and another for women.

    The jury sat through nine weeks of evidence so I have no opinion on their verdict other than to say I accept it because theuy and they alone were the record keepers of the facts.

    I think any young man engaging in casual sex with strangers is placing himself in a very vulnerable situation. I think my advice would be to place a recording device in the room. You will be hung, drawn and quartered before during and after the trial by the twitter mob, is a five minute shag really worth the hassle.


  • #6693
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    tretorn wrote: »
    You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

    Deary, deary, me.

    Just be honest and say you think "they're asking for it".


  • #6694
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    tretorn wrote: »
    Consent works both ways.

    No woman has the right to put her hand anywhere on a stranger, the man didnt want her hand there so he removed it.

    You cant have one standard of rules for men and another for women.

    You do know that what you are pointing out is a textbook definition of consent?

    It's the exact same set of rules.


  • #6695
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Leaving night clubs with strange men and going to their bedrooms in my eyes means yes, both parties are looking for casual sex.

    This means if you claim you were raped afterwards you will need a very high standard of evidence to prove your claim.

    This wasnt the case in the Belfast trial so hence the verdict.


  • #6696
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,260 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    Deary, deary, me.

    Just be honest and say you think "they're asking for it".

    No its not asking for it , its being responsible for your own safety . Its the same as putting on a seat belt or wearing a high viz jacket in situations where they are protecting you . Women also need to stay safe and be aware where they need to protect themselves . Getting into a taxi with a stranger carries risks as does walking through an unlit park at night . So I would always teach young people , both male and female , to stay safe and be aware . Too much drink or drugs can impair that judgement in my opinion


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  • #6697
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    Your definition of "common sense" (along with that of poster RuMan) is that it's perfectly alright to carry out sex acts on people who are asleep.

    So you'll forgive me if I disregard whatever your definition of "common sense" is, thanks.

    In a nightclub?
    Don't think I ever said that.


  • #6698
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    For men who live in jurisdictions where they can be named as soon as they are charged with a rape allegation its even more important that they think about the situations they are getting into.


  • #6699
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    tretorn wrote: »
    The moral of the story is.........................
    Avoid having sex when you're completely off your face and you're less likely to end up in court?


  • #6700
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    tretorn wrote: »
    Leaving night clubs with strange men and going to their bedrooms in my eyes means yes, both parties are looking for casual sex.
    You have a real problem understanding what consent is.


  • #6701
    hill16bhoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭hill16bhoy


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    In a nightclub?
    Don't think I ever said that.
    I read the posts you made on Sunday, so I know full well what your views are.


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  • #6702
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    retro:electro wrote: »
    tretorn wrote: »
    Did she ask for consent though, isnt that the whole point.

    Why do you think its a crime for a man to put his hand on a woman but you scoff at anyone questioning a woman intruding on a mans private space.

    If the man in question didnt move his hand does that mean he was up for further sexual contact or is moving his hand enough.

    In Iceland you now have to say Yes so him removinghis hand mightnt be enough.

    The double standards are just so despicable.

    Feminists want men to have incredible high standards but yet a strnage woman can put her hand wherever she likes and this isnt a problem at all.

    Eh last time checked it wasn’t a crime to touch someone’s thigh. If he asked her to remove it and she was relentless, then yes that is a violation. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bath water and call for all casual contact to be ceased. If you don’t know the difference between how inappropriate it is to touch someone’s boob vs a casual touch on a thigh mid conversation then I’m afraid I can’t help you there.
    And I’m not a Feminist. Old school yes, but by today’s standards no.
    Its also not a crime to partake in a 3some  and then tell your friends about it and call the women a bit of a slut, ( not nice or gentlemanly but not a crime )


  • #6703
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    tretorn wrote: »
    Leaving night clubs with strange men and going to their bedrooms in my eyes means yes, both parties are looking for casual sex.

    This means if you claim you were raped afterwards you will need a very high standard of evidence to prove your claim.

    This wasnt the case in the Belfast trial so hence the verdict.
    By that logic then, all you have to do is convince someone to come into your bedroom and the onus is on them to prove that they didn't want anything else to happen.

    Sounds a bit...rapey...to me.

    Surely a person retains the exact same presumption of consent right up until the initiation of the act - i.e. the presumption of no consent. After that perhaps a higher standard is required to show that consent was withdrawn mid-coitus. But it should not be presumed that because the other party is standing in your bedroom that they're up for anything.


  • #6704
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    seamus wrote: »
    Avoid having sex when you're completely off your face and you're less likely to end up in court?


    Exactly, that should be the key message in whatever sex consent classes schools are going to get involved in.

    Its not the place of schools to get involved in these conversations at all, its the job of parents to advise their children not to drink to excess and not to sleep with randommers while intoxicated.


  • #6705
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    There’s a bit of a stretch to think consent classes will stop rape. Some people will always do bad things. What it might do however is reduce the incidence by helping people avoid the grey areas like this case where both parties seem to have a differing view of whether consent existed and / or was withdrawn. If it’s going to do that though it needs to be a lot more than ‘Johnny needs to learn that it’s not going k to touch someone’s areas in a club’ (though that’s part of it . It also needs to cover clear communication between people as well responsibility (both genders)around alcohol. Tbh some of the arguements used in this case were very damaging to progressing this - by both defence and prosecution


  • #6706
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    You have a real problem understanding what consent is.

    The issue is proving it.
    You voluntary go back to someones house in the small hours after a night out it is going to be near impossible to prove consent was given or not given.
    That is the hard reality of these kinds of situation.


  • #6707
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    hill16bhoy wrote: »
    I read the posts you made on Sunday, so I know full well what your views are.

    You just commented on a reasonable real world bit of advice for young people that you 'might as well say that they were asking for it'.

    I would not have much confidence in your interpretative skills. Good luck to you.


  • #6708
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    seamus wrote: »
    By that logic then, all you have to do is convince someone to come into your bedroom and the onus is on them to prove that they didn't want anything else to happen.

    Sounds a bit...rapey...to me.

    Surely a person retains the exact same presumption of consent right up until the initiation of the act - i.e. the presumption of no consent. After that perhaps a higher standard is required to show that consent was withdrawn mid-coitus. But it should not be presumed that because the other party is standing in your bedroom that they're up for anything.

    In law the onus is on the victim and the DPP to show the defendant has done something illegal not the other way round.


  • #6709
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    The issue is proving it.
    You voluntary go back to someones house in the small hours after a night out it is going to be near impossible to prove consent was given or not given.
    That is the hard reality of these kinds of situation.

    Don't mention 'real life' there is a feminist utopia just over the rainbow doncha know.


  • #6710
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    tretorn wrote: »
    Exactly, that should be the key message in whatever sex consent classes schools are going to get involved in.

    Its not the place of schools to get involved in these conversations at all, its the job of parents to advise their children not to drink to excess and not to sleep with randommers while intoxicated.
    I disagree on the second part. Assume that people will drink to excess, which then follows that they will get horny and desire to have sex with strangers.

    Operate on that basis. You can't always speak sense to a drunk person, but if you've inserted the idea into the lizard brain, and the brains of all of their friends, then just like teaching people that drink-driving is stupid, you would hope that someone, at some point, before it gets that far, steps in to pull the plug.

    Whether that be one of the participants, or one of their mates. Just like you'd take the car keys off a drunk mate, while they shout and curse at you, why wouldn't you do the same when they're talking about going home with someone?


  • #6711
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Personally I think consent classes are really stupid.

    If someone says NO or is asleep then it's clear if you continue you are a rapist. Consent classes won't make one iota of difference for someone who is of that mindset.

    If consent classes worked, then we should also have theft classes, murder classes, fraud classes etc etc because the only reason any crime at all exists is because the poor criminals are too dumb to realise they are committing a crime.

    If both parties are drunk and not sure what they are doing it's a very very grey area. In that case both parties have a responsibility to behave better, not just the man.

    Does anyone seriously think that the situation in Paddy Jackson's bedroom, regardless of your opinion of their guilt or innocence, wouldn't have happened had all parties had consent classes?

    Classes around the differences between male and female sexuality, precautions and appropriate behaviour would be far more effective.


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  • #6712
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You just commented on a reasonable real world bit of advice for young people that you 'might as well say that they were asking for it'.

    I would not have much confidence in your interpretative skills. Good luck to you.

    Well, seeing as the girl in this case apparently had 6 drinks, that's negates some of his advice.


  • #6713
    Colser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,572 ✭✭✭Colser


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You just commented on a reasonable real world bit of advice for young people that you 'might as well say that they were asking for it'.

    I would not have much confidence in your interpretative skills. Good luck to you.
    I read that bit of advice as being aimed at girls only..did I interpret it incorrectly?


  • #6714
    Neyite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,947 ✭✭✭✭Neyite


    tretorn wrote: »
    You need to explain very clearly to young girls that going out in clothes that are very revealing, drinking to a point where you are past self control and leaving nightclubs with randomers you have just met is very risky behaviour.

    It's hilarious that what a woman wears, consumes or place she socialises in is justification for her rape.

    As if by her actions, ordinary men who are powerless over their urges turn into rapists and it's all her fault.

    If that's the case, you'd imagine that men would get raped all the time for parading naked/wet /covered in soap around gym showers and changing rooms by all those gay men who also can't control those primitive manly urges.

    Or, more likely: The men who have a rapey mindset target women who look and act like you described because they can easily overpower her, get what they want and also they know a prevailing social attitude will attribute at least some of the blame for the rape on the woman.

    Ordinary, nice, decent men control their dicks, and don't stick it anywhere they know it's not wanted or they check if they aren't sure. Rapey fcukers pretend they can't control themselves, pretend they don't understand consent, and act like a short skirt made them do it.


  • #6715
    Tell me how
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,095 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I too am cautious of consent classes.

    I dislike the general trend towards nobody being able to do anything unless they've been shown how to do it in the classroom.

    "Sorry, I spat on the footpath, I missed the class on not doing it and my parents didn't want to give me a potentially conflicting message"


  • #6716
    Allinall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,338 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Neyite wrote: »
    It's hilarious that what a woman wears, consumes or place she socialises in is justification for her rape.

    As if by her actions, ordinary men who are powerless over their urges turn into rapists and it's all her fault.

    Where did anyone, anywhere say that?

    Perhaps read the words that are in front of you, rather than what you imagine the poster is saying.


  • #6717
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,953 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    Allinall wrote: »
    Neyite wrote: »
    It's hilarious that what a woman wears, consumes or place she socialises in is justification for her rape.

    As if by her actions, ordinary men who are powerless over their urges turn into rapists and it's all her fault.

    Where did anyone, anywhere say that?

    Perhaps read the words that are in front of you, rather than what you imagine the poster is saying.
    Maybe she #ibelievethatswhatyousaid, so there for you did and don't dare you bring evidence into this you pig


  • #6718
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    Colser wrote: »
    I read that bit of advice as being aimed at girls only..did I interpret it incorrectly?

    It was aimed solely at girls.


  • #6719
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Neyite wrote: »
    It's hilarious that what a woman wears, consumes or place she socialises in is justification for her rape.

    As if by her actions, ordinary men who are powerless over their urges turn into rapists and it's all her fault.

    If that's the case, you'd imagine that men would get raped all the time for parading naked/wet /covered in soap around gym showers and changing rooms by all those gay men who also can't control those primitive manly urges.

    Or, more likely: The men who have a rapey mindset target women who look and act like you described because they can easily overpower her, get what they want and also they know a prevailing social attitude will attribute at least some of the blame for the rape on the woman.

    Ordinary, nice, decent men control their dicks, and don't stick it anywhere they know it's not wanted or they check if they aren't sure. Rapey fcukers pretend they can't control themselves, pretend they don't understand consent, and act like a short skirt made them do it.

    May I be as kind to suggest you pull your head out of the clouds.

    This is not justification of anything, nobody is trying to justify bad behavior. This is about giving good advice but the crazed feminist movement do not want to take this advice, does not want to take any responsibility for putting themselves in venerable situations because they do not want to admit 1. They are vulnerable and 2. That they put themselves in this situation.

    In these circumstances women are vulnerable because in any physical altercation with a man, men will win out almost 100% of the time.

    There are people in the world that do not have your best interests at heart they will take advantage of you given the opportunity.

    If you voluntary walk into these situations, chances are you are never going to be able to prove a crime took place.


  • #6720
    georgina toadbum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭georgina toadbum


    Allinall wrote: »
    Where did anyone, anywhere say that?

    Perhaps read the words that are in front of you, rather than what you imagine the poster is saying.

    If a girl goes out in very revealing clothes or gets drunk it shouldn't be risky. She shouldn't be at a higher risk of getting raped because of what she's wearing.


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  • #6721
    GreeBo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,520 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    retro:electro wrote: »
    :rolleyes:
    Appledreams15 wrote: »
    K

    How is this even fathomable.

    I've been on a beach with plenty of men who were half naked in shorts, some in tiny speedos.

    Yet I managed to have the cop on not to go over and:
    Massage their chest,
    Feel their dick.

    That is sexual assault.

    Are you living in the real world?


    If either of you could go ahead and answer the question, that would be great.

    Also, Im assuming neither of you lock your cars at night, or have a house alarm right?


This discussion has been closed.
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