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Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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Comments

  • #6062
    cloudatlas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭cloudatlas


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    No one knows what people have on their whatsapp accounts which are private. And personally as far as im concerned I dont want to know.

    They could be found to have brought the game into disrepute, we have evidence of how they view women, so we do know.


  • #6063
    Katgurl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,145 ✭✭✭Katgurl


    tretorn wrote: »
    Thats not the message I am getting from the marches, sorry witch hunt. They placards are all about I believeher, in other words disrespecting a jury verdict.

    Why would it make more sense to you that she gave more detail to the medical staff than she gave to the police, this isnt actually what happened at all, read the evidence.

    She told the staff in the Sexual Assault clinic that three men had raped her, she never mentioned oral sex at all. She told the police that Jackson and Olding had raped her and forced her to have oral sex with them. She told Police Mcilroy had arrived in stark naked with his penis in his hand demanding oral sex, in another version he was clothed and pulled down his clothes.

    The inconsistencies in the mens evidence in my opinion was to do with loyalty to each other, they didnt want to say anything to incriminate the pals, this was utterly stupid but you have to remember how young they were, Olding was only twenty two. Harrison and Mc Ilroy went to the Police Station without their solicitors which in itself was a foolhardy thing to do. Neither though actually believed anything non consensual had happened so they were too blase about the danger they were walking into.


    I have read the evidence. And actually I do believe her despite the verdict. I have sat on a jury myself and argued (successfully) for a not guilty verdict even though I thought the defendent probably did commit a crime. The evidence wasn't there to support it. There was room for doubt. Prosecution had not proved otherwise beyond reasonable doubt.

    Were you at the march? I was. That men are scum placard is a disgrace but does not represent everyone there. A woman came on and talked about being raped and told she had to wait two years for an appointment at the rape crisis centre. There is a need for support services. Women and men are raped and sexually assaulted every day. Most are never reported. Less than 8% of those which do result in convictions. It is too difficult to get a conviction across the line. But that is a separate matter. In the meantime there are victims (male and female) who need support.


  • #6064
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Everyone at the protests are letting down humanity.

    Grow up, these men had their day in court and were proven not guilty.


  • #6065
    Maxpfizer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    bebeman wrote: »
    Sure its all coming out who her father is, and this is why the case was brought, despite no case could be made, the father had to manitain his reputation for work reasons

    If true then that's a bizarre twist and ultimately a reveal of "Patriarchy" being behind this thing all along.

    A young woman forced to proceed with an unwinnable court case, forced to endure the scrutiny of her choices and actions, all to protect the reputation of her father.

    The outrage and protests all in service of protecting the reputation of one powerful man.


  • #6066
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,708 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    If your son did that, would he deserve to have his life and career blighted?


    Absolutely. No question. I would be wondering where the fcuk did he pick up that attitude from because it certainly isn't one he would have learned from his parents. I'd wonder what sort of people he was associating with that would ever think that sort of behaviour and attitude should be dismissed as though it is acceptable. It isn't, and if the consequences of his behaviour were that he ended his own career prematurely and meant that no employer would hire him, I would completely understand why they wouldn't want to employ him, and I would understand why nobody would want to associate with him. Hell, I wouldn't myself, why would I expect anyone else should want to associate with him unless they shared that sort of mentality?

    Fortunately for society, most young men do not share these men's mentality, and that's the reason why I wouldn't encourage anyone to use these high profile trials as a barometer with which to judge the rest of society.


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  • #6067
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Katgurl wrote:
    I have read the evidence. And actually I do believe her despite the verdict. I have sat on a jury myself and argued (successfully) for a not guilty verdict even though I thought the defendent probably did commit a crime. The evidence wasn't there to support it. There was room for doubt. Prosecution had not proved otherwise beyond reasonable doubt.

    How can you believe her despite the verdict? Do you not agree that the evidence failed to show they raped her?

    If these guys were guilty, and at the start I thought they were, then they would have deserved to rot. But they are innocent. So why try to force a change to make guilty men suffer for something that was not a crime?

    In fact the only crimes being committed are by the ibelieveher campaign who are sending death threats


  • #6068
    Roger Hassenforder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,555 ✭✭✭Roger Hassenforder


    Katgurl wrote: »
    a lack of conviction does not mean a rape didn't take place.

    No problem with increasing funding for the RCC, but that is a truly horrific vista.


  • #6069
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,516 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    There's a fair bit of truth in the argument that the players' general behaviour that night created problems for themselves. Olding saying he had 23 alcoholic drinks that day / night, a girl leaving their house distressed and in tears, referring to women as 'sluts' and bragging about 'spit roasting'. It's all a bit yobbish and unsavoury.

    Had members of the Irish football team become embroiled in such a story, I'd say they'd equally be in hot water - this is a different era to 20 / 30 years ago when sports people could do whatever the hell they wanted. Jack Grealish took a lot of flak for being photographed drunk in Spain and received a severe warning from his manager. The incidents that took place with the rugby guys is arguably far more serious than anything Grealish did, even though they were acquitted of sexual assault.


  • #6070
    bloodless_coup
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,480 ✭✭✭bloodless_coup


    bebeman wrote: »
    Sure its all coming out who her father is, and this is why the case was brought, despite no case could be made, the father had to manitain his reputation for work reasons

    Do tell more.


  • #6071
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Maxpfizer wrote:
    A young woman forced to proceed with an unwinnable court case, forced to endure the scrutiny of her choices and actions, all to protect the reputation of her father.


    That is nothing to do with force or patriarchy. If she was "forced" to make a case that were there was no crime then she is more guilty than I would want to think.


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  • #6072
    Maxpfizer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 496 ✭✭Maxpfizer


    Katgurl wrote: »
    That men are scum placard is a disgrace but does not represent everyone there.

    I'm sure that's true but how to you prevent that kind of person from taking advantage of any changes that the protest achieves?

    So you've got the current situation. The people enforcing law feel that the law is fair and unbiased.

    The protesters feel that the law is biased and unfair and they want a fair and unbiased system.

    Among the protesters are individuals with "MEN R TRASH" signs. Could there be a clearer statement of bias and unfairness there?

    So it looks like they are asking for change that makes it easier to convict and punish but that is not justice.

    Justice is us, as a society, placing our trust in 11 jurors to make a decision that we cannot make for ourselves because we do not have a spare 8 or 9 weeks to hear all the evidence and come to an informed decision.

    If the protesters proposal is to overhaul the system then what checks and balances are in place to ensure that "MEN R TRASH" is not making the decision on whether or not a man is guilty or not guilty?


  • #6073
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Strazdas wrote:
    There's a fair bit of truth in the argument that the players' general behaviour that night created problems for themselves. Olding saying he had 23 alcoholic drinks that day / night, a girl leaving their house distressed and in tears, referring to women as 'sluts' and bragging about 'spit roasting'. It's all a bit yobbish and unsavoury.


    So they deserve to be branded rapists and be witch hunted after been found not guilty?

    Utter rubbish by a childish mentality


  • #6074
    Creol1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Creol1


    People are splitting hairs in trying to introduce a distinction between "innocent" and "not guilty". If you aren't guilty of a crime, then by definition you are innocent of the crime (unless you had some accomplice role). Moreover, the European Convention on Human Rights, to which we are a party, enshrines (Article 6) the principle that a person is innocent until proven guilty. As the men have been found not guilty, then it follows they are innocent.


  • #6075
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    cloudatlas wrote: »
    They could be found to have brought the game into disrepute, we have evidence of how they view women, so we do know.

    Those texts say zero about how they view women - they show only what they thought about that one drunken night. You simply can’t judge someone’ character from a few texts.

    I was recently talking to a friend via text about guy I was briefly involved with some 12 years ago trying to make a pass at me a few weeks ago. If you were to read what we were saying about him you’d think we were both misandrists but nothing could be further from the truth. I just don’t like him and the way he thinks I’ll fall back into his arms at the first opportunity.

    Yet you would say it’s acceptable to call me a man hater, I’m sorry but that’s neither logical or fair.


  • #6076
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    What people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of anyone elses business.

    Olding can drink whatever he likes when he is on holidays, is anyone keeping a tab of what you drink when you are on your holidays. Oldings drink consumption is pretty normal for young people these days, he didnt get into a car and drive while drunk so his alcohol consumption is his problem and no one elses.

    What people post in private whatsapp groups is their own business too and everyone has sent whatsapp messages to trusted groups of friends that wouldnt see the light of day anywhere else.

    Plenty of people like swinging and like threesomes and they can call this activity whatever they like.

    The problem was created by someone who participated willingly in what went on deciding at some point she wasnt happy.


  • #6077
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #6078
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Absolutely. No question. I would be wondering where the fcuk did he pick up that attitude from because it certainly isn't one he would have learned from his parents. I'd wonder what sort of people he was associating with that would ever think that sort of behaviour and attitude should be dismissed as though it is acceptable. It isn't, and if the consequences of his behaviour were that he ended his own career prematurely and meant that no employer would hire him, I would completely understand why they wouldn't want to employ him, and I would understand why nobody would want to associate with him. Hell, I wouldn't myself, why would I expect anyone else should want to associate with him unless they shared that sort of mentality?

    Fortunately for society, most young men do not share these men's mentality, and that's the reason why I wouldn't encourage anyone to use these high profile trials as a barometer with which to judge the rest of society.

    A young immature man deserves to have his life and career blighted for making some remarks on a whatsapp group chat and for a drunken night?

    Ok :eek:


  • #6079
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,516 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Mr.H wrote: »
    So they deserve to be branded rapists and be witch hunted after been found not guilty?

    Utter rubbish by a childish mentality

    Not at all. They were found not guilty of rape and are not rapists.

    However their general behaviour that night created a lot of problems for themselves. All of them drunk, two men arriving in a bedroom completely uninvited and looking for sex where a man and woman had been alone, the subsequent WhatsApp conversations etc. This was not some unfortunate random incident that 'happened' to them....they created much of the background to it themselves.


  • #6080
    Christy42
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,106 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Everyone at the protests are letting down humanity.

    Grow up, these men had their day in court and were proven not guilty.

    They are protesting how people are treated as they bring forward sexual assault/rape cases. How is that letting down humanity? Strong words. I would apply that far quicker to those in the WhatsApp conversation or some of the disgusting comments I have seen on twitter towards this woman (Laois and Drogheda players amongst them).

    At no point were they ever proven not guilty. That is not how are justice system works. They are of course assumed not guilty. Claiming they are proven not guilty suggests that the woman is at fault and that this fact has been shown in fact. No such thing has been proven. We are in a legal state of not knowing what happened.


  • #6081
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Christy42 wrote: »
    They are protesting how people are treated as they bring forward sexual assault/rape cases. How is that letting down humanity? Strong words. I would apply that far quicker to those in the WhatsApp conversation or some of the disgusting comments I have seen on twitter towards this woman (Laois and Drogheda players amongst them).

    At no point were they ever proven not guilty. That is not how are justice system works. They are of course assumed not guilty. Claiming they are proven not guilty suggests that the woman is at fault and that this fact has been shown in fact. No such thing has been proven. We are in a legal state of not knowing what happened.

    Some may have been, but anyone holding or shouting Ibelieveher was, like it or not, protesting the verdict in a single case.
    They had pre-judged that case and were unhappy with the jury decision.

    Apparently some want to retain that 'right'. But are not as brave now that they may have to stand over it in a defamation case.


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  • #6082
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #6083
    AudreyHepburn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,673 ✭✭✭AudreyHepburn


    Christy42 wrote: »
    They are protesting how people are treated as they bring forward sexual assault/rape cases. How is that letting down humanity? Strong words. I would apply that far quicker to those in the WhatsApp conversation or some of the disgusting comments I have seen on twitter towards this woman (Laois and Drogheda players amongst them).

    At no point were they ever proven not guilty. That is not how are justice system works. They are of course assumed not guilty. Claiming they are proven not guilty suggests that the woman is at fault and that this fact has been shown in fact. No such thing has been proven. We are in a legal state of not knowing what happened.

    Did the jury not return a Not Guilty verdict? If not then what was the outcome of the trial because I must have missed it.

    No one is saying such a verdict means the woman is lying, only that there was a misunderstanding as regards consent.


  • #6084
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Innocent = not guilty, thats what fair minded people accept.

    As for the childish twats having a tantrum because they didnt get the verdict they want, all their pictures should be taken so they are never allowed to sit on a jury in a sexual assault case.


  • #6085
    Strazdas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,516 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    tretorn wrote: »
    What people do in the privacy of their own homes is none of anyone elses business.

    Olding can drink whatever he likes when he is on holidays, is anyone keeping a tab of what you drink when you are on your holidays. Oldings drink consumption is pretty normal for young people these days, he didnt get into a car and drive while drunk so his alcohol consumption is his problem and no one elses.

    What people post in private whatsapp groups is their own business too and everyone has sent whatsapp messages to trusted groups of friends that wouldnt see the light of day anywhere else.

    Plenty of people like swinging and like threesomes and they can call this activity whatever they like.

    The problem was created by someone who participated willingly in what went on deciding at some point she wasnt happy.

    Why did Jack Grealish get into big trouble for being photographed drunk when he was on holiday in Tenerife? It became a huge story and was all over the newspapers and TV news bulletins.

    The incident involving the rugby guys was arguably considerably more serious.


  • #6086
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,943 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Christy42 wrote: »
    They are protesting how people are treated as they bring forward sexual assault/rape cases. How is that letting down humanity? Strong words. I would apply that far quicker to those in the WhatsApp conversation or some of the disgusting comments I have seen on twitter towards this woman (Laois and Drogheda players amongst them).

    At no point were they ever proven not guilty. That is not how are justice system works. They are of course assumed not guilty. Claiming they are proven not guilty suggests that the woman is at fault and that this fact has been shown in fact. No such thing has been proven. We are in a legal state of not knowing what happened.

    Why bother with a court case at all. Let an alleged victim make an allegation and we all make up our own minds?


  • #6087
    fattymuatty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 295 ✭✭fattymuatty


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A young immature man deserves to have his life and career blighted for making some remarks on a whatsapp group chat and for a drunken night?

    Ok :eek:

    A teenager was left sobbing and bleeding through her clothes, these men thought that was something to brag and joke about. Yeah they deserve repercussions. Like it or not when your career is being a high profile sport person you are a role model, people like these should not be in that position.


  • #6088
    brendanwalsh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    What does her father do ?


  • #6089
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Who is Jack Grealish, I have never heard of him.


  • #6090
    tritium
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    To be perfectly honest RuMan, if they were sports professionals I would expect that they would behave like sports professionals, and not the utter scumbags that they are. I can say that without fear of being sued for defamation, because the evidence that they are utter scumbags is already in the public domain. Their behaviour and their attitudes towards other people are not what I would expect of sports professionals, and they are entirely responsible for the consequences of their own actions, attitudes and behaviours.

    They should have given consideration to that before they behaved the way they did, and I know it was mentioned earlier that consideration must be given to the fact that they are young, but implying that their age or their immaturity should be a mitigating factor in defence of their attitudes and behaviours, does a disservice to the vast majority of young men the same age as them who would never even think to behave the way they did, or treat any woman the way they did, and I can tell you now for a fact that if my son were ever to display the attitudes and behaviours that they did, a trial before a jury of his peers would be the least of his worries.

    Except you’re basing that on little more than a snapshot. Would yhey be scumbags to engage in consensual group sex? Not really. The only questionable thing they seem to have done if we respecter the not guilty verdict is the WhatsApp chat. Of those, Jackson, the highest profile professional sportsman is guilty of one fairly minor post.

    Beyond that, those texts only show one brief aspect- surely it’s as unfair to define the 4 by one snippet of WhatsApp chat as it would be to use the accusers Lacey knickers as evidence of some sort of promiscuous nature.

    What else then. Since the trial Jackson has vigorously defended his right to a restored good name. Fair play to him for that, if he felt he was innocent all along I’d expect him to be both protective of it and very angry tbh.


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  • #6091
    tretorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    The teenager was a nineteen year old adult woman who went into the VIP section of a night club so she could rub shoulders with "celebrety rugby and football players.

    It was unfortuneate for Jackson that it was his house she ended up back in and not the house of one of the soccer players.

    Thats the way the dice rolls.

    The woman had a 1CM tear in her vagina and no other evidence whatsoever that she had been raped at all.

    Sorry folks who want to think they know better than the jury, you dont. If there was even a smidgin of doubt in the juros minds they wouldnt have been back with a verdict within a couple of hours. It looks like their minds were made up long before the judge sent them out to deliberate.

    Its not hard to come to that conclusion.


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