Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

jr86 · 31-03-2018 12:02AM

holyhead wrote: »

The text messages speak of an obvious disrespect for women among the men. It can be excused as lads talk but really the messages are vile in language and speak of the men as being immature.

2 men*

Well plus a few other non-accused

Faugheen · 31-03-2018 12:02AM

Rodin wrote: »

Is the offence being charged one of attempted murder, assault, battery, battery with GBH, battery with ABH...

A stabbing has taken place but if the assailant is psychotic no criminal offence has taken place.

Criminal offence requires both the act and guilty mind. Someone may have been stabbed but whether a criminal offence has taken place is another matter.

We'll say assault for arguments sake, and we'll say I'm found not guilty (no reason of insanity involved in verdict, just plain not guilty).

Are you happy to say 'oh, ok, I wasn't assaulted, then' with your current logic in mind?

retired00 · 31-03-2018 12:03AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Men are first and foremost out for sex. They find communication with women on a cerebral level difficult. The What's App texts were hardly the stuff of Noel Coward.

Keep digging, I'm really enjoying the confirmation.

with all due respect

irishman86 · 31-03-2018 12:03AM

Happy4all wrote: »

are you really that stupid or faking it? I hope for your own sake the latter.

:rolleyes:

jr86 · 31-03-2018 12:03AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Has a judge ever rejected a jury's findings? Because he/she thinks they have ignored their directions.

the jury don't give their reasons just a simple one or two word answer

31-03-2018 12:03AM

Sidebaro wrote: »

I would question that given what I've seen on this thread, if you were to equate the ratio here to the ratio of the male population of Ireland.

How many male posters on this thread? Or are you spinning crap?

Women disbelieved when they say they've been raped (not the trial, a poster on boards),

I could claim I was abducted by aliens, or was taken to Guantanamo Bay by American special forces. Its the Internet... Without evidence, most claims are going to be taken with a pinch or two of skepticism. And rightly so.

Saying that, there was a thread recently about people who were sexually assaulted, and the vast majority of people were supportive of the posters who contributed. So, no, I can't agree with you.

the woman in the trial labelled a slut and a liar, 'all lads talk like that, what can you do?', etc. I know that you'll say that's only a few but it's enough that I would question the claim of VAST majority.

Could you show me the posts where she has been labelled a slut and a liar?

Although, it is interesting that her moral compass shouldn't be criticised (considering what she set herself up for), but the remarks about the guys morals aren't criticised?

I know you'll say that women are bad too, of course they are but that's not what's being discussed.

Well, that's convenient. You get to choose what is being discussed?

If you are blind to how ignorant a lot of comments directed at women have been then fine, I guess you don't think there's a problem but a lot of my female friends, not ones who protest or post hashtags, are intimidated by males in general.

Ignorant? I doubt that because we are bombarded by the remarks that women are regularly hassled by men.

A lot of the time it's unwarranted but sometimes their fears are proved right and it's not the vast majority of the time. The flat out refusal of this, as if all posters only know good and honest men, is as unhelpful as it is expected.

It's expected because there isn't, in spite of your attitude, a crime-wave in this country of women being assaulted and raped. It is a minority doing so, otherwise women would be locking themselves at home all day, and not going to work or any social activities. Your attitude is just so bizarre.

drillyeye · 31-03-2018 12:03AM

irishrebe wrote: »

This is pretty much exactly how it feels to be a woman. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities. It's absolutely hilarious to me how many of these opinions have been voiced ON THIS VERY THREAD, and yet a woman addressing them has some sort of victim complex?

No, that is exactly how YOU feel. Your words.

Stop telling ALL women that they are victims. Who do you think youre helping by pitting literally all women against all men?

The problem with that mentality is that you are personally removing your own agency. And when a person has no agency they are no longer in control of their own lives......and around and around she goes. Theres no end-point or conclusion.

Is it not sufficient to say that there are bad people out there, and that everyone needs to be really careful, no? Or do you think its possible to get rid of all bad people? Cos that is never happening.

Strazdas · 31-03-2018 12:04AM

Zonda999 wrote: »

Yeah undoubtedly so, but I'm basing that IQ comment on a lot more of Boards than just After Hours though. I just think a certain type of person would prefer to read in depth about whichever topic as opposed to a short snippet basically stating an opinion as opposed to any general information or detailed commentary.

Yeah, definitely more right wing but Boards is probably more representative of the country as a whole though I think.

Going back to the issue at hand, there would definitely be more appreciation of the mechanics of the judicial system here though where concepts like "reasonable doubt" are brought up. I've been looking at twitter a bit the last few days and haven't seen anything like this.

Moving on, while Twitter is being used to promote these "#IBelieveHer" protests that have no specific aim whatsoever, I somehow doubt Twitter is the platform to design this supposedly gender-equal utopia they purport to want to create.

It reminds me a bit of that whole "Occupy" anti-capitalism movement that were camping out on Wall Street and the likes a few years back. (If I recall correctly, they were even camping out on the South Mall in Cork, being the heavy hitting Financial Centre it is). Does anyone remember those? I suspect the people supporting and tweeting the "#IBelieveHer" stuff at the moment were also a fan of that whole fad, despite probably going on to continue to use the products and services of those mega stock-market listed corporations whose very existence the Occupy movement were meant to be protesting against. Corporations like Twitter Inc, as it happens.

One interesting thing is where this right wing vs left wing thing fits into the whole rape trial narrative.

If we take Niall Boylan for example, who has been prominent on this subject on radio and TV this week, he is a self confessed right winger with some pretty provocative opinions. I do wonder if the Twitter storm we've seen this week is a version of the Irish left versus the Irish right.

irishman86 · 31-03-2018 12:04AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Does the definition change somehow? We use the same language.

Yes. First of all the states have different laws among each other
Never mind totally different laws to Britain and Ireland
Quick google buddy, solves a lot of well ..........

Pac1Man · 31-03-2018 12:05AM

Faugheen wrote: »

We'll say assault for arguments sake, and we'll say I'm found not guilty (no reason of insanity involved in verdict, just plain not guilty).

Are you happy to say 'oh, ok, I wasn't assaulted, then' with your current logic in mind?

You would see evidence of an assault.

Rodin · 31-03-2018 12:06AM

Faugheen wrote: »

We'll say assault for arguments sake, and we'll say I'm found not guilty (no reason of insanity involved in verdict, just plain not guilty).

Are you happy to say 'oh, ok, I wasn't assaulted, then' with your current logic in mind?

Doesn't matter what I think.
The legal system is there to decide whether an offence was committed or not - if we could decide for ourselves we wouldn't need a legal system.

Now, as the standard of proof is lower for a civil case that may be an avenue for me as the alleged stabbing victim to explore.

Depp · 31-03-2018 12:07AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How many times does it need to be pointed out that no, it doesn't. It means not proven. Possibly innocent, but not definitely.

Any citizen of the uk, by right of the law, is innocent until proven guilty, the defendants in this case were not found guilty, therefore, in the eyes of the law they are 4 innocent men, peoples personal feelings on the case don't come into it.

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 12:08AM

drillyeye wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

This is pretty much exactly how it feels to be a woman. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities. It's absolutely hilarious to me how many of these opinions have been voiced ON THIS VERY THREAD, and yet a woman addressing them has some sort of victim complex?

No, that is exactly how YOU feel. Your words.

Stop telling ALL women that they are victims. Who do you think youre helping by pitting literally all women against all men?

The problem with that mentality is that you are personally removing your own agency. And when a person has no agency they are no longer in control of their own lives......and around and around she goes. Theres no end-point or conclusion.

Is it not sufficient to say that there are bad people out there, and that everyone needs to be really careful, no? Or do you think its possible to get rid of all bad people? Cos that is never happening.

OK, let me rephrase it. That is how I feel, how my sister feels and how just about every woman I know feels. That OK for you?

FrancieBrady · 31-03-2018 12:08AM

jr86 wrote: »

the jury don't give their reasons just a simple one or two word answer

I know that.
But why direct if you are not going to examine how they arrive at their verdict.

It's an anomaly I don't understand to be honest.

Rodin · 31-03-2018 12:08AM

For those quoting the Federal criminal system in the US, the Irish/British don't even agree the Americans on what a pint is so they're hardly going to have identical legal systems.

bloodless_coup · 31-03-2018 12:08AM

Faugheen wrote: »

I could go on, and on, but you continue to spread your ill-educated views like a good man.

OK, you got me. They were found not guilty but we all know on the sly they they did actually rape her. Am I doing this right?

Zonda999 · 31-03-2018 12:09AM

Surely people can agree the term "innocent" is being used to describe two different things here?

Theres legally innocent which is a status the accused were even after they were charged with the crime and continue to be as a result of the "not guilty" verdict.Surely everyone can agree on that.

The other innocent is surely nothing other than a common opinion though, its not from a court of law, its a meaningless thing.

Prospectors · 31-03-2018 12:10AM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

How many times does it need to be pointed out that no, it doesn't. It means not proven. Possibly innocent, but not definitely.

No it doesn't. It seems it needs to be pointed out even more frequently, innocence does not require to be proven. Not guilty = presumed innocent. Same as the day they first walked into that courtroom.

Fann Linn · 31-03-2018 12:11AM

irishrebe wrote: »

OK, let me rephrase it. That is how I feel, how my sister feels and how just about every woman I know feels. That OK for you?

Excuse the pun but:

'Birds of a feather...'

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 12:12AM

Rodin wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

This is pretty much exactly how it feels to be a woman. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities. It's absolutely hilarious to me how many of these opinions have been voiced ON THIS VERY THREAD, and yet a woman addressing them has some sort of victim complex?

How do you think men feel about there being a presumption of guilt when someone claims a rape.
By saying 'I believe her' you're saying 4 men, found innocent by a court of law, are liars.
How do you think that makes a man feel or do only women have feelings?

Because there's this little thing called perception. Try reading up about it sometime. It's perfectly possible for me to feel that I have been violated while the man or men involved don't think they've done anything wrong. Hence me being able to say I believe the victim, I believe her story, and at the same time criticising those who are still wrongly referring to the defendents as 'rapists' when they have been acquitted in a court of law. Nuance. Try it.

NAGDEFI · 31-03-2018 12:12AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Men are first and foremost out for sex. They find communication with women on a cerebral level difficult. The What's App texts were hardly the stuff of Noel Coward.

Keep digging, I'm really enjoying the confirmation.

I'm sorry but that's simply not true. Some of my best friends are female and without sexual relationship. In fact it's a lot easier to express your problems to female friends than male ones i find. My female friends are much more in tune emotionally and can tell if somethings bothering me. We could talk about anything.

Faugheen · 31-03-2018 12:13AM

irishman86 wrote: »

You quoted three american sites on a case with british lawss
Dont you see the irony
Or wait, do you know Britain is not part of the USA
There was a little war back in the day, it was quiet a big deal

I didn't realise we had different definitions of not guilty.

From a solicitors office in Meath: https://businessandlegal.ie/not-guilty-does-not-mean-innocent-in-criminal-law

Scottish prosecution service: Verdict that means there was not enough evidence to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt - Here.

Anything else?

irishrebe · 31-03-2018 12:13AM

Fann Linn wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

OK, let me rephrase it. That is how I feel, how my sister feels and how just about every woman I know feels. That OK for you?

Excuse the pun but:

'Birds of a feather...'

Yeah, despite the fact I grew up on a ****ty estate in Clondalkin, studied at Trinity and have lived and worked all around the world, I seem to only meet women who are JUST LIKE ME. What are the chances?

holyhead · 31-03-2018 12:13AM

How the hell can you prove consent without the encounter being recorded?
How can a witness definitively prove an sexual act between two people was consenual?
If both parties confirm sex took place, but one participant defines it as rape, how does the other prove the otherwise?
In the case of the soccer players in Wales, how is it determined that one sexual act was consensual but the next man was guilty of rape when the woman was in the same state of inebriation during both acts?

The Legend Of Kira · 31-03-2018 12:14AM

Strazdas wrote: »

Zonda999 wrote: »

Yeah undoubtedly so, but I'm basing that IQ comment on a lot more of Boards than just After Hours though. I just think a certain type of person would prefer to read in depth about whichever topic as opposed to a short snippet basically stating an opinion as opposed to any general information or detailed commentary.

Yeah, definitely more right wing but Boards is probably more representative of the country as a whole though I think.

Going back to the issue at hand, there would definitely be more appreciation of the mechanics of the judicial system here though where concepts like "reasonable doubt" are brought up. I've been looking at twitter a bit the last few days and haven't seen anything like this.

Moving on, while Twitter is being used to promote these "#IBelieveHer" protests that have no specific aim whatsoever, I somehow doubt Twitter is the platform to design this supposedly gender-equal utopia they purport to want to create.

It reminds me a bit of that whole "Occupy" anti-capitalism movement that were camping out on Wall Street and the likes a few years back. (If I recall correctly, they were even camping out on the South Mall in Cork, being the heavy hitting Financial Centre it is). Does anyone remember those? I suspect the people supporting and tweeting the "#IBelieveHer" stuff at the moment were also a fan of that whole fad, despite probably going on to continue to use the products and services of those mega stock-market listed corporations whose very existence the Occupy movement were meant to be protesting against. Corporations like Twitter Inc, as it happens.

One interesting thing is where this right wing vs left wing thing fits into the whole rape trial narrative.

If we take Niall Boylan for example, who has been prominent on this subject on radio and TV this week, he is a self confessed right winger with some pretty provocative opinions. I do wonder if the Twitter storm we've seen this week is a version of the Irish left versus the Irish right.

""
If we take Niall Boylan for example, who has been prominent on this subject on radio and TV this week, he is a self confessed right winger with some pretty provocative opinions. ""
I listened to his show yesterday + watched him on tv3 last night- I recall what he said regarding rape allegations to quote "" women should be listened to "" & "" women should be supported "" he disagreed with the idea some people suggest that women should be automatically believed ,, what exactly is "" provocative "" about any of what he said ?

31-03-2018 12:15AM

Mrs Shuttleworth wrote: »

Men are first and foremost out for sex.

Well, that's a lovely generalisation. Is my father (73) out in the pub with my brother (48) out for sex? They're both happily married men. Am I (41) only out for sex? i am single, after all. My genitals must rule me completely.

Is every interaction that I make with a woman with the objective of getting sex? Sorry to bust your bubble, but I can get sex relatively easy. I go out to have fun, have a good conversation, and to meet new people.

You really don't understand men.

Faugheen · 31-03-2018 12:15AM

Pac1Man wrote: »

You would see evidence of an assault.

What if I can provide evidence I didn't assault him though, thus casting reasonable doubt that I did it?

The logic was that not guilty meant no crime took place, not that no crime takes place when it suits me. Keep up chap.

irishman86 · 31-03-2018 12:15AM

Faugheen wrote: »

I didn't realise we had different definitions of not guilty.

From a solicitors office in Meath: https://businessandlegal.ie/not-guilty-does-not-mean-innocent-in-criminal-law

Scottish prosecution service: Verdict that means there was not enough evidence to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt - Here.

Anything else?

Yes
Google how the law works
Innocent walking into court, not guilty verdict hence guilty walking out
Anything else?
How long did it take you to find the meath one :pac: maybe read it, because it doesnt prove your point at all

bloodless_coup · 31-03-2018 12:15AM

I hope many people who have posted nonsense in this thread are some day accused of something vile they are innocent of. And in the process they have their reputation ruined, careers ruined and are viewed as still guilty even after being cleaned of the accusation.

Silentcorner · 31-03-2018 12:15AM

irishrebe wrote: »

Because there's this little thing called perception. Try reading up about it sometime. It's perfectly possible for me to feel that I have been violated while the man or men involved don't think they've done anything wrong. Hence me being able to say I believe the victim, I believe her story, and at the same time criticising those who are still wrongly referring to the defendents as 'rapists' when they have been acquitted in a court of law. Nuance. Try it.

You might as well be speaking in Latin.....

Belfast rape trial - all 4 found not guilty Mod Note post one

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