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Homeless crisis or Housing crisis?

24567…13

Comments

  • #32
    McMurphy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    Ireland has remarkably gone from a housing crisis to a housing boom to a housing bust to a housing crisis in about 20 years.

    What's more, we'll do it all again in the next 20.
    NIMAN wrote: »
    How would the PBP, AAA, SF solve the crisis?

    The magic money tree?
    Yep.

    I blame those lads ^^^^.

    Not the lads who oversaw it all .


  • #33
    CrankyHaus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭CrankyHaus


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Yep.

    I blame those lads ^^^^.

    Not the lads who oversaw it all .

    To give FF their due, social housing construction was kept up under their stewardship, even into the economic crisis.

    The figures fell off a cliff from the FG/Lab government in 2011and have never recovered, despite more money becoming available. Instead there's just been endless spin, from the likes of Alan Kelly and now Eoghan Murphy.

    For example yesterday the Department of Housing released the latest homeless figures. 9,807 now homeless, a 40% year on year increase.

    That isn't to say that FF housing policies have not been dysfunctional.

    I also agree that excessive entitlement makes the issue hard to solve. Long term working families should be prioritised for social housing instead of 3rd generation dole scroungers with criminal records or associations. Similarly, ever rising rent allowance create a rising floor on rents that penalises working people.


  • #34
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    When single working people (or even working couples) can barely afford to rent something decent, not to mind buy somewhere to live, it's a housing crisis.
    Bingo. This is the problem but these people are too busy at the daily grind to fight for reform while the tiny number of people who won't or can't make the effort to house themselves have industrial scale advocates and professional hand wringers pushing their overstated agenda.


  • #35
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Bingo. This is the problem but these people are too busy at the daily grind to fight for reform while the tiny number of people who won't or can't make the effort to house themselves have industrial scale advocates and professional hand wringers pushing their overstated agenda.

    Please have a look at e daft re rentals these days, alongside eg rent allowance figures also. Compared with even a few years ago, even in the remote rural areas few could live in , there are so few.

    I spent months last year trying to find anywhere within my limits ( single pensioner ) head meet brick wall... Only found somewhere finally through knocking on doors,talking to locals ... and easier for me as I am alone.

    So many landlords have sold up. The entire rental scene has changed ,


  • #36
    Berserker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,043 ✭✭✭Berserker


    NIMAN wrote: »
    How would the PBP, AAA, SF solve the crisis?

    The magic money tree?

    They'll spout a load of idealistic, vote catching nonsense and if the electorate gives them a chance to get into power, where they'll have to do something about it, they'll make up some BS excuse to avoid doing so and they'll sit on the opposition benches with their six figure salaries, excluding expenses. SF after the last election proved this.


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  • #37
    firstlight
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 336 ✭✭firstlight


    whisky_galore wrote: »
    When single working people (or even working couples) can barely afford to rent something decent, not to mind buy somewhere to live, it's a housing crisis.

    exactly 100% on the money


  • #38
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,084 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Pyr0 wrote: »
    A lot of people seem to forget the reasons why and how some people become homeless and think the fix is to just give people a house.

    Mental illness and addiction are huge factors when it comes to homelessness, i believe the government should focus on providing aid and support for these issues first before throwing houses at people. People need to have some sort of control over their lives before they can live it as best they can in a safe environment, give them that control THEN help them find accommodation.

    However there's research saying that you sort out the most basic need (stable accommodation) first and the treatment for the other issues is more likely to be successful and the effects last beyond the immediate intervention.

    The argument is that if people are in temporary accommodation, then get themselves sorted out - and then have to move out of the temporary accommodation because they are "better", they are actually likely to fall back into a cycle of poor friend choices leading to substance abuse again when they move.

    One article here: http://www.thejournal.ie/housing-first-homeless-3652283-Oct2017/

    But there are more: Google "housing first" to find out more about it.





    All that said ... we do have a housing crisis, not a homelessness one. The number with mental health / addiction issues hasn't increased dramatically like the number who cannot find rentals they can afford has.


  • #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    What do people want?

    Houses for everyone who just declares themselves homeless or cant afford rent in the area of their choosing, or who has their name on the housing list?

    Where does it stop?

    Everyone will eventually say screw paying a mortgage I want a discounted house too.

    Whos going to pay for all these houses?

    It's not sustainable.
    I heard of a family looking to rent a room in a share recently because they can't find anything else. Guy has a decent job but I'm guessing not decent enough to pay €20k+ a year in rent.
    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

    I know from various threads the same posters are in deflection mode regarding housing/ Homeless issues, some even just flat out deny there is any issues (despite the government, or more accurately the leader of the party they show unwavering allegiance to saying that they exist)

    I was reading online yesterday that there are cases where there are pensioners who are encountering scenarios where they have monthly rent that exceeds what they get in pension payments.

    Pensioners, older folk who have worked hard and paid taxes all of their lives, and usually (due to their old-fashioned way of doing things) are the first to put the hands in the pockets and pay any newly introduced govt tax or levy, as that's how they've always done things, should be able to live out their retirements in a stress free environment so far as they can, I for one feel we owe them that much, at their stage of life.

    They are also classed as being on SW, and people should really take this into account when talking about the sw bills in the country.

    Then there's the issue where they're languishing on trolleys because of that crises too.

    Someone needs to sort it out before something gives.
    We know very different old people. :P


  • #40
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jasper79 wrote: »
    But if they are alone why aren't the family living with them rather than relying on the state, surely that family member would be more important ?

    Most working people have to resolve the issue of childcare too, and don't live beside family.

    I don't agree it's a myopic view, I disagree that its the state's role to facilitate choices people are making, when they cannot afford it.

    What you are saying is you'd prefer to pay vastly more as tax payer to have people in a nursing home, and people not working rather than keeping them as a functioning family unit and keeping people in jobs.

    It is a myopic viewpoint. The only choice being made here is short term gain, but will have major repercussions for the future. Also the idea that what works for someone on a good salary works the same for someone on a low salary doesn't make any sense.


  • #41
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    Bingo. This is the problem but these people are too busy at the daily grind to fight for reform while the tiny number of people who won't or can't make the effort to house themselves have industrial scale advocates and professional hand wringers pushing their overstated agenda.

    The housing crisis does not only effect a tiny number of people who simply won't work.


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  • #42
    Jasper79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Jasper79


    beauf wrote: »
    What you are saying is you'd prefer to pay vastly more as tax payer to have people in a nursing home, and people not working rather than keeping them as a functioning family unit and keeping people in jobs.

    It is a myopic viewpoint. The only choice being made here is short term gain, but will have major repercussions for the future. Also the idea that what works for someone on a good salary works the same for someone on a low salary doesn't make any sense.

    So in your example the person wouldn't be willing to take care of a sick relative unless the state housed them nearby ? Either a person needs a nursing home or not, state housing a family member should not affect this ?

    I didn't say anyting about people not working, if they are able to work they sort out childcare like every other working parent.


  • #43
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jasper79 wrote: »
    So in your example the person wouldn't be willing to take care of a sick relative unless the state housed them nearby ? Either a person needs a nursing home or not, state housing a family member should not affect this ?

    I didn't say anyting about people not working, if they are able to work they sort out childcare like every other working parent.

    The idea on this forum is you would move people to different county to free up housing and avail of low cost housing. You can't pop in and out to to someone one in a different county as needs be. Also the idea is to downsize social tenants. Often the accommodation the carer has isn't suitable for the older person in any way. Lots of people work, but can't afford childcare. Its simply not an option. If family support is unavailable they just stop working.


  • #44
    Jasper79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Jasper79


    beauf wrote: »
    The idea on this forum is you would move people to different county to free up housing and avail of low cost housing. You can't pop in and out to to someone one in a different county as needs be. Also the idea is to downsize social tenants. Often the accommodation the carer has isn't suitable for the older person in any way. Lots of people work, but can't afford childcare. Its simply not an option. If family support is unavailable they just stop working.

    There is no perfect solution. However people on social housing should not be provided better housing/locations than the average working person can afford.

    If you cannot afford to live in Dublin for example or any city then you have to move outside of it. Whether you pay yourself or from the state. The state ( Taxpayers) should not be on the hook for subsidizing your unaffordable lifestyle housing/childcare Indefinitely.

    Welfare should be short term for anybody who is able to work. And people on welfare should accept they are not going to and are not entitled to the same lifestyle as people not on welfare.


  • #45
    whisky_galore
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,266 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    ChikiChiki wrote: »
    They wouldn't. Thats the very worrying thing. There is not one f**king party or person in Dail Eireann with the capability or motivation to come up with a solution.

    We will be waiting a long time until some heroic leader with vision and smarts emerges.

    You will be waiting.

    The vast majority of voters who are homeowners don't care, in fact it's to their advantage that the current situation continues.

    Likewise the property hoarders, developers and builders waiting on the sidelines to save the day with expensive (and likely sub standard) new housing.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote:
    Is it time to call shenanigans on the homeless industry? How are these figures collated? Are my adult children who live with me included? People who have a hotel roof over their heads at night are not homeless. I googled “homeless in Ireland†and the top three results were Focus Ireland, Peter MacVerry Trust and Simon community. How much do they get on grants ever year from the public purse? How much of that money goes in actually housing people versus how much in wages, offices and associated costs? People, too have to take responsibility for their plight. Are we rearing a generation of people unable to look after themselves? Shur, someone else will give me a house(not apartment) In the Uk roughly 50% of people live within 70 miles of their childhood homes. The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available? Those living rough are the homeless that our Government should be focusing on. Their needs stretch beyond having a roof over their heads.


    Unlike a lot of other countries we don't count your adult children or my adult children living at home. We don't count people couch surfing. There must be thousands living with friends and family that can't afford to rent or can't find accommodation to rent.

    The almost 10,000 homeless people in Ireland are in emergency accommodation, hubs, shelters or on the street. No one living at home with their family or friends are part of this almost 10,000.

    We have a homeless epidemic mostly due to the shortage of housing. More housing brings prices and rent down. People who can't afford to pay rent now might be able to pay rent with another 60,000 homes built


  • #47
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Would the crisis be as bad if the pervious and present FG government were not bestest buddies of vulture funds who purchased vast quanties of housing at knock down prices or allowing speculators sit on tracts of building land?


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Hitman3000 wrote:
    Would the crisis be as bad if the pervious and present FG government were not bestest buddies of vulture funds who purchased vast quanties of housing at knock down prices or allowing speculators sit on tracts of building land?


    We had a glut of housing until FG came to power. This is their legacy. I honestly hoped things would change with Leo but he seems preoccupied with his personal spin doctors


  • #49
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Interestingly Leo has admitted we have a housing and homeless crisis, however the FG supporters club here are in full deflection mode. When as a young country we had little to no money we were still able to build thousands of houses and get rid of the scourge of tenements. Now as one of the wealthiest developed natiins we can't or is it won't? FG policy seems to be let the market sort it well after 7 years of this policy it's clear it's not working .
    Even people on reasonable incomes cannot secure a home but the deflection always seeks to target people at the bottom. I could take some notice of the OP but to me she has zero credibility based on her pervious posting history.


  • #50
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    FG are not some unaccountable dictatorship. They got voted in.


  • #51
    Graces7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Jasper79 wrote: »
    There is no perfect solution. However people on social housing should not be provided better housing/locations than the average working person can afford.

    If you cannot afford to live in Dublin for example or any city then you have to move outside of it. Whether you pay yourself or from the state. The state ( Taxpayers) should not be on the hook for subsidizing your unaffordable lifestyle housing/childcare Indefinitely.

    Welfare should be short term for anybody who is able to work. And people on welfare should accept they are not going to and are not entitled to the same lifestyle as people not on welfare.[/QUOTE]

    We rarely do. Believe me. And why not anyways?


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  • #52
    corner of hells
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,439 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    However there's research saying that you sort out the most basic need (stable accommodation) first and the treatment for the other issues is more likely to be successful and the effects last beyond the immediate intervention.

    The argument is that if people are in temporary accommodation, then get themselves sorted out - and then have to move out of the temporary accommodation because they are "better", they are actually likely to fall back into a cycle of poor friend choices leading to substance abuse again when they move.

    One article here: http://www.thejournal.ie/housing-first-homeless-3652283-Oct2017/

    But there are more: Google "housing first" to find out more about it.





    All that said ... we do have a housing crisis, not a homelessness one. The number with mental health / addiction issues hasn't increased dramatically like the number who cannot find rentals they can afford has.

    Housing First works , it's a pretty effective method.


  • #53
    corner of hells
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,439 ✭✭✭corner of hells


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Unlike a lot of other countries we don't count your adult children or my adult children living at home. We don't count people couch surfing. There must be thousands living with friends and family that can't afford to rent or can't find accommodation to rent.

    The almost 10,000 homeless people in Ireland are in emergency accommodation, hubs, shelters or on the street. No one living at home with their family or friends are part of this almost 10,000.

    We have a homeless epidemic mostly due to the shortage of housing. More housing brings prices and rent down. People who can't afford to pay rent now might be able to pay rent with another 60,000 homes built

    Couch surfing is recognised , it regularly appears on paperwork.


  • #54
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,457 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    We had a glut of housing until FG came to power. This is their legacy. I honestly hoped things would change with Leo but he seems preoccupied with his personal spin doctors

    The Govt policies that started this chain of events started with FF. Certainly FG have maintained it. They are hand in hand with regard to housing.


  • #55
    Anne1982h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Anne1982h


    beauf wrote: »
    That's not as simple as that. People need help with child care and helping each other when sick, or looking after elderly. Being near family and a long time friends in a community in those situations is critical as otherwise you are stuffed.

    Not that I think everyone has to live near family or family homes, but in some cases they do.

    Yes they do in an ideal world but unfortunately working people don’t get the luxury of being near family - they go where the jobs are. People who are homeless should go where the houses are. I’d love to live near my parents and could have built on their land but I wouldn’t be able to find work.

    My opinion would be that if you are offered a house somewhere then either take it or be struck off the list. Lots of vacant houses are in the countryside - nice scenery, smaller schools, community spirit - if you’d prefer languish on the streets of Dublin / in a grotty hotel and wait for a house next door to Mammy and Daddy then I have no sympathy for you - in particular if you put your kids through that too. I read an article about a full vacant housing estate in Ennis, Co. Clare - within walking distance of the town centre that there is apparently no demand for. It’s disgusting that people are turning those houses and the chance to give their kids a better life down.


  • #56
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Anne1982h wrote:
    Yes they do in an ideal world but unfortunately working people don’t get the luxury of being near family - they go where the jobs are. People who are homeless should go where the houses are. I’d love to live near my parents and could have built on their land but I wouldn’t be able to find work.


    So sticking a homeless person in the middle of nowhere with no transport or services or the means to provide transport for themselves makes sense how?


  • #57
    Wheeliebin30
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,593 ✭✭✭Wheeliebin30


    Is it up to the government to house people?

    If the answer is yes then why should anyone be paying a mortgage or renting in this world?

    Who's responsibility is it for people to have a house?


  • #58
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,801 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    The idea that those who receive state housing should enjoy a luxury (choice of location) that those who pay for their housing do not is nothing short of gobsmacking


  • #59
    Jasper79
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭Jasper79


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Jasper79 wrote: »
    There is no perfect solution. However people on social housing should not be provided better housing/locations than the average working person can afford.

    If you cannot afford to live in Dublin for example or any city then you have to move outside of it. Whether you pay yourself or from the state. The state ( Taxpayers) should not be on the hook for subsidizing your unaffordable lifestyle housing/childcare Indefinitely.

    Welfare should be short term for anybody who is able to work. And people on welfare should accept they are not going to and are not entitled to the same lifestyle as people not on welfare.[/QUOTE]

    We rarely do. Believe me. And why not anyways?

    Why not what ?


  • #60
    Anne1982h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Anne1982h


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    So sticking a homeless person in the middle of nowhere with no transport or services or the means to provide transport for themselves makes sense how?

    So declining a house within walking distance to a town center as in the Ennis case because you want to live beside your parents makes sense how? I don’t think there are too many stand along bungalows in the middle of the countryside cut off from everywhere on the social housing lists. Walking distance to a town cente is all that is needed - any size of town centre.


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  • #61
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,540 ✭✭✭emo72


    Wheeliebin30 wrote: »
    Is it up to the government to house people?

    no. but 2 working people cant afford to rent and cant afford to buy. its getting really messed up now. its a disaster.


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