Homeless crisis or Housing crisis?

Is it time to call shenanigans on the homeless industry? How are these figures collated? Are my adult children who live with me included? People who have a hotel roof over their heads at night are not homeless.
I googled “homeless in Ireland” and the top three results were Focus Ireland, Peter MacVerry Trust and Simon community. How much do they get on grants ever year from the public purse? How much of that money goes in actually housing people versus how much in wages, offices and associated costs?
People, too have to take responsibility for their plight. Are we rearing a generation of people unable to look after themselves? Shur, someone else will give me a house(not apartment) In the Uk roughly 50% of people live within 70 miles of their childhood homes. The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available?
Those living rough are the homeless that our Government should be focusing on. Their needs stretch beyond having a roof over their heads.

Graces7

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it time to call shenanigans on the homeless industry? How are these figures collated? Are my adult children who live with me included? People who have a hotel roof over their heads at night are not homeless.
I googled “homeless in Ireland” and the top three results were Focus Ireland, Peter MacVerry Trust and Simon community. How much do they get on grants ever year from the public purse? How much of that money goes in actually housing people versus how much in wages, offices and associated costs?
People, too have to take responsibility for their plight. Are we rearing a generation of people unable to look after themselves? Shur, someone else will give me a house(not apartment) In the Uk roughly 50% of people live within 70 miles of their childhood homes. The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available?
Those living rough are the homeless that our Government should be focusing on. Their needs stretch beyond having a roof over their heads.

See thread on the accommodation and property board here where all your questions will be answered fully . VERY fully indeed...

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057643605

It's definitely the latter. Big trouble is a-brewing and the politicians don't seem to realise.

Red_Wake

Some people basically just need a birth to death care home, because they're too useless to look after themselves.

Mr. Incognito

People are declaring themselves homeless to jump the housing queues for a free house.

Thankfully its been stopped but wont stop them from doing it for a bitta publicity

whisky_galore

When single working people (or even working couples) can barely afford to rent something decent, not to mind buy somewhere to live, it's a housing crisis.

beauf

Deleted User wrote: »

....The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available?...

That's not as simple as that. People need help with child care and helping each other when sick, or looking after elderly. Being near family and a long time friends in a community in those situations is critical as otherwise you are stuffed.

Not that I think everyone has to live near family or family homes, but in some cases they do.

ChikiChiki

whisky_galore wrote: »

When single working people (or even working couples) can barely afford to rent something decent, not to mind buy somewhere to live, it's a housing crisis.

OP is a FG supporter. As we all know FG are in full deflection mode as they do not have a notion how to fix the crisis they allowed happen on their watch.

beauf

In fairness it started with FF. FG continued the same polices. Though. All cut from the same cloth.

kneemos

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it time to call shenanigans on the homeless industry? How are these figures collated? Are my adult children who live with me included? People who have a hotel roof over their heads at night are not homeless.
I googled “homeless in Ireland” and the top three results were Focus Ireland, Peter MacVerry Trust and Simon community. How much do they get on grants ever year from the public purse? How much of that money goes in actually housing people versus how much in wages, offices and associated costs?
People, too have to take responsibility for their plight. Are we rearing a generation of people unable to look after themselves? Shur, someone else will give me a house(not apartment) In the Uk roughly 50% of people live within 70 miles of their childhood homes. The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available?
Those living rough are the homeless that our Government should be focusing on. Their needs stretch beyond having a roof over their heads.

Let me paraphrase.

OMG why am I paying for people who aren't obviously in the gutter?

Wheeliebin30

What do people want?

Houses for everyone who just declares themselves homeless or cant afford rent in the area of their choosing, or who has their name on the housing list?

Where does it stop?

Everyone will eventually say screw paying a mortgage I want a discounted house too.

Whos going to pay for all these houses?

It's not sustainable.

Jasper79

beauf wrote: »

That's not as simple as that. People need help with child care and helping each other when sick, or looking after elderly. Being near family and a long time friends in a community in those situations is critical as otherwise you are stuffed.

Not that I think everyone has to live near family or family homes, but in some cases they do.

Totally disagree here, if you cannot afford to live where you choose, and are reliant on the state, then you lose that choice.

Franz Von Peppercorn

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Is it time to call shenanigans on the homeless industry? How are these figures collated? Are my adult children who live with me included? People who have a hotel roof over their heads at night are not homeless.
I googled “homeless in Ireland” and the top three results were Focus Ireland, Peter MacVerry Trust and Simon community. How much do they get on grants ever year from the public purse? How much of that money goes in actually housing people versus how much in wages, offices and associated costs?

Your children are obviously not homeless. They have a home. No idea on the expenditure in Simon etc.

People, too have to take responsibility for their plight. Are we rearing a generation of people unable to look after themselves? Shur, someone else will give me a house(not apartment) In the Uk roughly 50% of people live within 70 miles of their childhood homes. The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available?

We’ve have social housing for generations. What’s this generational war you keep harping in about. Problem today is not enough housing.

Those living rough are the homeless that our Government should be focusing on. Their needs stretch beyond having a roof over their heads.

That’s actually the hardest thing to fix. Impossible, probably.

whisky_galore

ChikiChiki wrote: »

OP is a FG supporter. As we all know FG are in full deflection mode as they do not have a notion how to fix the crisis they allowed happen on their watch.

Yep, sure mature working people can house-share or live in any old sh1te hole like college students and expect to form relationships and raise a family?

Piss poor social planning is an Irish trait, not one you can foist onto any one political party.

McMurphy

The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I know from various threads the same posters are in deflection mode regarding housing/ Homeless issues, some even just flat out deny there is any issues (despite the government, or more accurately the leader of the party they show unwavering allegiance to saying that they exist)

I was reading online yesterday that there are cases where there are pensioners who are encountering scenarios where they have monthly rent that exceeds what they get in pension payments.

Pensioners, older folk who have worked hard and paid taxes all of their lives, and usually (due to their old-fashioned way of doing things) are the first to put the hands in the pockets and pay any newly introduced govt tax or levy, as that's how they've always done things, should be able to live out their retirements in a stress free environment so far as they can, I for one feel we owe them that much, at their stage of life.

They are also classed as being on SW, and people should really take this into account when talking about the sw bills in the country.

Then there's the issue where they're languishing on trolleys because of that crises too.

Someone needs to sort it out before something gives.

Assetbacked

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

That’s actually the hardest thing to fix. Impossible, probably.

Being homeless where you are sleeping on the streets is not simply because you lost your job and got kicked out of your flat. It's mental health, addiction, physical health issues etc. combined with the fact that those that do not want help are unlikely to actually be helped.

firstlight

Most of people who i know my age
Still live at home with parents with no chance of ever affording a home even if they have what you would call decent jobs
If you were to actually tune into whats really going on you would be down the doctors looking for a dose of the happy pills
Everyone seems to be on them to put up with reality

Pure Depression

Wheeliebin30

Can anyone show me one country in the world with no homeless people?

Maybe then we can look at their model and criticise the powers to be.

It doesn't exist.

EVERY country has homeless people. Is it possible to eradicate?

TheBoyConor

What I think is being very much underplayed about the housing/homeless crisis is that in an awful lot of cases it's not about a simple lack of housing that people become homeless. A very large part of the homeless people sleeping rough etc, the lack of a roof is not the actual root of the problem rather it is only a symptom of other primary problems they have - addictions, mental health issues etc. I see this day in day out as I work in a somewhat associated field. Even if you had plenty houses there are a lot of these people that you could not simply take them, put them in a nice house and say "there you go now, live happily ever after". A lot of them are not capable of normal independent living for one reason or another and will end up on the streets again.

beauf

Jasper79 wrote: »

Totally disagree here, if you cannot afford to live where you choose, and are reliant on the state, then you lose that choice.

The point is then you may end up with old people in care, (can't be maintained at home) more people not working as they can't get child cover from other family. It may end up costing the state and the tax payer many, many times more.

The idea that you can rip family and community fabric apart and not have a long term effect is myopic. I expect most people on boards are generally only concerned about the taxes they pay and getting on the property ladder, because of the demographic that is here.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/how-finland-solved-homelessness/

Not that I'm opposed to encouraging people to move to more affordable locations. But most of those arguments are not focused on the negatives associated with that.

AlekSmart

firstlight wrote: »

Most of people who i know my age
Still live at home with parents with no chance of ever affording a home even if they have what you would call decent jobs
If you were to actually tune into whats really going on you would be down the doctors looking for a dose of the happy pills
Everyone seems to be on them to put up with reality

Pure Depression

I suppose that's where the term "Family Home" came from ?

The notion that every individual in a family became antitled to a specific,seperate housing unit of their own,is quite a recent one.

What has happened in modern Ireland,is the result of blindly following the U.K. Home Ownership
policies of Lady Thatcher,which has not exactly worked out well for them either.

Facilitating Local Authorities to return to the business of supplying and managing basic,good quality accomodation over the long-term would be a good place to start.

The last thing Ireland needs,is yet more young forward thinking "Property Developers",all equally keen to do the Local Authorities work,but at exorbitant profit.

I would concede however,that for as long as our National Parliament is comprised of such a high level of Auctioneers,Private Landlords and other "Property" related professional types,then little actual progress is possible

Auguste Comte

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Can anyone show me one country in the world with no homeless people?

Maybe then we can look at their model and criticise the powers to be.

It doesn't exist.

EVERY country has homeless people. Is it possible to eradicate?

Libya before they were "liberated"?

SEPT 23 1989

we seemed to be able to build houses/flats to keep a roof over everybodys head in the last century when the country was a economic basket case

CrankyHaus

AlekSmart wrote: »

I suppose that's where the term "Family Home" came from ?

The notion that every individual in a family became antitled to a specific,seperate housing unit of their own,is quite a recent one.

What has happened in modern Ireland,is the result of blindly following the U.K. Home Ownership
policies of Lady Thatcher,which has not exactly worked out well for them either.

Facilitating Local Authorities to return to the business of supplying and managing basic,good quality accomodation over the long-term would be a good place to start.

The last thing Ireland needs,is yet more young forward thinking "Property Developers",all equally keen to do the Local Authorities work,but at exorbitant profit.

I would concede however,that for as long as our National Parliament is comprised of such a high level of Auctioneers,Private Landlords and other "Property" related professional types,then little actual progress is possible

Exactly. High rents are not a bug, they're a feature, as far as the establishment parties are concerned.

The fact that this harms our competitiveness and creates volatile bubbles that crash the economy is irrelevant. The people who matter are making out like bandits, right now, and anyone who has a problem with that is just a snowflake who wants a forever home.

Jasper79

beauf wrote: »

The point is then you may end up with old people in care, (can't be maintained at home) more people not working as they can't get child cover from other family. It may end up costing the state and the tax payer many, many times more.

The idea that you can rip family and community fabric apart and not have a long term effect is myopic. I expect most people on boards are generally only concerned about the taxes they pay and getting on the property ladder, because of the demographic that is here.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/02/how-finland-solved-homelessness/

Not that I'm opposed to encouraging people to move to more affordable locations. But most of those arguments are not focused on the negatives associated with that.

But if they are alone why aren't the family living with them rather than relying on the state, surely that family member would be more important ?

Most working people have to resolve the issue of childcare too, and don't live beside family.

I don't agree it's a myopic view, I disagree that its the state's role to facilitate choices people are making , when they cannot afford it.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

What we have is a system buckling under entitlements. 2nd/3rd generations of families expecting the state to provide a roof over their heads. The country cannot sustain that nor can it continue to afford to allow people use public funding to fund their lifestyle as they stay at home having child after child. We’re at a stage now where people who work and contribute to society are not having children because they’re paying for people to stay at home to have children on welfare. I think until the government address the entire system we’ll continue to see worse and worse effects and the lack of Houses are only the beginning

NIMAN

beauf wrote: »

In fairness it started with FF. FG continued the same polices. Though. All cut from the same cloth.

How would the PBP, AAA, SF solve the crisis?

The magic money tree?

Pyr0

A lot of people seem to forget the reasons why and how some people become homeless and think the fix is to just give people a house.

Mental illness and addiction are huge factors when it comes to homelessness, i believe the government should focus on providing aid and support for these issues first before throwing houses at people. People need to have some sort of control over their lives before they can live it as best they can in a safe environment, give them that control THEN help them find accommodation.

Supergurrier

More of an affordable housing crisis.

People who can get a 250k+ mortgage and people in social housing and a giant **** you to everyone in between.

ChikiChiki

NIMAN wrote: »

How would the PBP, AAA, SF solve the crisis?

The magic money tree?

They wouldn't. Thats the very worrying thing. There is not one f**king party or person in Dail Eireann with the capability or motivation to come up with a solution.

We will be waiting a long time until some heroic leader with vision and smarts emerges.

Harry Palmr

Ireland has remarkably gone from a housing crisis to a housing boom to a housing bust to a housing crisis in about 20 years.

What's more, we'll do it all again in the next 20.

McMurphy

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Ireland has remarkably gone from a housing crisis to a housing boom to a housing bust to a housing crisis in about 20 years.

What's more, we'll do it all again in the next 20.

NIMAN wrote: »

How would the PBP, AAA, SF solve the crisis?

The magic money tree?

Yep.

I blame those lads ^^^^.

Not the lads who oversaw it all .

CrankyHaus

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Yep.

I blame those lads ^^^^.

Not the lads who oversaw it all .

To give FF their due, social housing construction was kept up under their stewardship, even into the economic crisis.

The figures fell off a cliff from the FG/Lab government in 2011and have never recovered, despite more money becoming available. Instead there's just been endless spin, from the likes of Alan Kelly and now Eoghan Murphy.

For example yesterday the Department of Housing released the latest homeless figures. 9,807 now homeless, a 40% year on year increase.

That isn't to say that FF housing policies have not been dysfunctional.

I also agree that excessive entitlement makes the issue hard to solve. Long term working families should be prioritised for social housing instead of 3rd generation dole scroungers with criminal records or associations. Similarly, ever rising rent allowance create a rising floor on rents that penalises working people.

suicide_circus

whisky_galore wrote: »

When single working people (or even working couples) can barely afford to rent something decent, not to mind buy somewhere to live, it's a housing crisis.

Bingo. This is the problem but these people are too busy at the daily grind to fight for reform while the tiny number of people who won't or can't make the effort to house themselves have industrial scale advocates and professional hand wringers pushing their overstated agenda.

Graces7

suicide_circus wrote: »

Bingo. This is the problem but these people are too busy at the daily grind to fight for reform while the tiny number of people who won't or can't make the effort to house themselves have industrial scale advocates and professional hand wringers pushing their overstated agenda.

Please have a look at e daft re rentals these days, alongside eg rent allowance figures also. Compared with even a few years ago, even in the remote rural areas few could live in , there are so few.

I spent months last year trying to find anywhere within my limits ( single pensioner ) head meet brick wall... Only found somewhere finally through knocking on doors,talking to locals ... and easier for me as I am alone.

So many landlords have sold up. The entire rental scene has changed ,

Berserker

NIMAN wrote: »

How would the PBP, AAA, SF solve the crisis?

The magic money tree?

They'll spout a load of idealistic, vote catching nonsense and if the electorate gives them a chance to get into power, where they'll have to do something about it, they'll make up some BS excuse to avoid doing so and they'll sit on the opposition benches with their six figure salaries, excluding expenses. SF after the last election proved this.

firstlight

whisky_galore wrote: »

When single working people (or even working couples) can barely afford to rent something decent, not to mind buy somewhere to live, it's a housing crisis.

exactly 100% on the money

Mrs OBumble

Pyr0 wrote: »

A lot of people seem to forget the reasons why and how some people become homeless and think the fix is to just give people a house.

Mental illness and addiction are huge factors when it comes to homelessness, i believe the government should focus on providing aid and support for these issues first before throwing houses at people. People need to have some sort of control over their lives before they can live it as best they can in a safe environment, give them that control THEN help them find accommodation.

However there's research saying that you sort out the most basic need (stable accommodation) first and the treatment for the other issues is more likely to be successful and the effects last beyond the immediate intervention.

The argument is that if people are in temporary accommodation, then get themselves sorted out - and then have to move out of the temporary accommodation because they are "better", they are actually likely to fall back into a cycle of poor friend choices leading to substance abuse again when they move.

One article here: http://www.thejournal.ie/housing-first-homeless-3652283-Oct2017/

But there are more: Google "housing first" to find out more about it.





All that said ... we do have a housing crisis, not a homelessness one. The number with mental health / addiction issues hasn't increased dramatically like the number who cannot find rentals they can afford has.

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

What do people want?

Houses for everyone who just declares themselves homeless or cant afford rent in the area of their choosing, or who has their name on the housing list?

Where does it stop?

Everyone will eventually say screw paying a mortgage I want a discounted house too.

Whos going to pay for all these houses?

It's not sustainable.

I heard of a family looking to rent a room in a share recently because they can't find anything else. Guy has a decent job but I'm guessing not decent enough to pay €20k+ a year in rent.

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I know from various threads the same posters are in deflection mode regarding housing/ Homeless issues, some even just flat out deny there is any issues (despite the government, or more accurately the leader of the party they show unwavering allegiance to saying that they exist)

I was reading online yesterday that there are cases where there are pensioners who are encountering scenarios where they have monthly rent that exceeds what they get in pension payments.

Pensioners, older folk who have worked hard and paid taxes all of their lives, and usually (due to their old-fashioned way of doing things) are the first to put the hands in the pockets and pay any newly introduced govt tax or levy, as that's how they've always done things, should be able to live out their retirements in a stress free environment so far as they can, I for one feel we owe them that much, at their stage of life.

They are also classed as being on SW, and people should really take this into account when talking about the sw bills in the country.

Then there's the issue where they're languishing on trolleys because of that crises too.

Someone needs to sort it out before something gives.

We know very different old people. :P

beauf

Jasper79 wrote: »

But if they are alone why aren't the family living with them rather than relying on the state, surely that family member would be more important ?

Most working people have to resolve the issue of childcare too, and don't live beside family.

I don't agree it's a myopic view, I disagree that its the state's role to facilitate choices people are making, when they cannot afford it.

What you are saying is you'd prefer to pay vastly more as tax payer to have people in a nursing home, and people not working rather than keeping them as a functioning family unit and keeping people in jobs.

It is a myopic viewpoint. The only choice being made here is short term gain, but will have major repercussions for the future. Also the idea that what works for someone on a good salary works the same for someone on a low salary doesn't make any sense.

beauf

suicide_circus wrote: »

Bingo. This is the problem but these people are too busy at the daily grind to fight for reform while the tiny number of people who won't or can't make the effort to house themselves have industrial scale advocates and professional hand wringers pushing their overstated agenda.

The housing crisis does not only effect a tiny number of people who simply won't work.

Jasper79

beauf wrote: »

What you are saying is you'd prefer to pay vastly more as tax payer to have people in a nursing home, and people not working rather than keeping them as a functioning family unit and keeping people in jobs.

It is a myopic viewpoint. The only choice being made here is short term gain, but will have major repercussions for the future. Also the idea that what works for someone on a good salary works the same for someone on a low salary doesn't make any sense.

So in your example the person wouldn't be willing to take care of a sick relative unless the state housed them nearby ? Either a person needs a nursing home or not, state housing a family member should not affect this ?

I didn't say anyting about people not working, if they are able to work they sort out childcare like every other working parent.

beauf

Jasper79 wrote: »

So in your example the person wouldn't be willing to take care of a sick relative unless the state housed them nearby ? Either a person needs a nursing home or not, state housing a family member should not affect this ?

I didn't say anyting about people not working, if they are able to work they sort out childcare like every other working parent.

The idea on this forum is you would move people to different county to free up housing and avail of low cost housing. You can't pop in and out to to someone one in a different county as needs be. Also the idea is to downsize social tenants. Often the accommodation the carer has isn't suitable for the older person in any way. Lots of people work, but can't afford childcare. Its simply not an option. If family support is unavailable they just stop working.

Jasper79

beauf wrote: »

The idea on this forum is you would move people to different county to free up housing and avail of low cost housing. You can't pop in and out to to someone one in a different county as needs be. Also the idea is to downsize social tenants. Often the accommodation the carer has isn't suitable for the older person in any way. Lots of people work, but can't afford childcare. Its simply not an option. If family support is unavailable they just stop working.

There is no perfect solution. However people on social housing should not be provided better housing/locations than the average working person can afford.

If you cannot afford to live in Dublin for example or any city then you have to move outside of it. Whether you pay yourself or from the state. The state ( Taxpayers) should not be on the hook for subsidizing your unaffordable lifestyle housing/childcare Indefinitely.

Welfare should be short term for anybody who is able to work. And people on welfare should accept they are not going to and are not entitled to the same lifestyle as people not on welfare.

whisky_galore

ChikiChiki wrote: »

They wouldn't. Thats the very worrying thing. There is not one f**king party or person in Dail Eireann with the capability or motivation to come up with a solution.

We will be waiting a long time until some heroic leader with vision and smarts emerges.

You will be waiting.

The vast majority of voters who are homeowners don't care, in fact it's to their advantage that the current situation continues.

Likewise the property hoarders, developers and builders waiting on the sidelines to save the day with expensive (and likely sub standard) new housing.

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

Is it time to call shenanigans on the homeless industry? How are these figures collated? Are my adult children who live with me included? People who have a hotel roof over their heads at night are not homeless. I googled “homeless in Ireland†and the top three results were Focus Ireland, Peter MacVerry Trust and Simon community. How much do they get on grants ever year from the public purse? How much of that money goes in actually housing people versus how much in wages, offices and associated costs? People, too have to take responsibility for their plight. Are we rearing a generation of people unable to look after themselves? Shur, someone else will give me a house(not apartment) In the Uk roughly 50% of people live within 70 miles of their childhood homes. The requirement for living near family or school shouldn’t be acceptable. What’s wrong in moving to where housing, schools and jobs are available? Those living rough are the homeless that our Government should be focusing on. Their needs stretch beyond having a roof over their heads.

Unlike a lot of other countries we don't count your adult children or my adult children living at home. We don't count people couch surfing. There must be thousands living with friends and family that can't afford to rent or can't find accommodation to rent.

The almost 10,000 homeless people in Ireland are in emergency accommodation, hubs, shelters or on the street. No one living at home with their family or friends are part of this almost 10,000.

We have a homeless epidemic mostly due to the shortage of housing. More housing brings prices and rent down. People who can't afford to pay rent now might be able to pay rent with another 60,000 homes built

Hitman3000

Would the crisis be as bad if the pervious and present FG government were not bestest buddies of vulture funds who purchased vast quanties of housing at knock down prices or allowing speculators sit on tracts of building land?

Sleeper12

Hitman3000 wrote:

Would the crisis be as bad if the pervious and present FG government were not bestest buddies of vulture funds who purchased vast quanties of housing at knock down prices or allowing speculators sit on tracts of building land?

We had a glut of housing until FG came to power. This is their legacy. I honestly hoped things would change with Leo but he seems preoccupied with his personal spin doctors

Hitman3000

Interestingly Leo has admitted we have a housing and homeless crisis, however the FG supporters club here are in full deflection mode. When as a young country we had little to no money we were still able to build thousands of houses and get rid of the scourge of tenements. Now as one of the wealthiest developed natiins we can't or is it won't? FG policy seems to be let the market sort it well after 7 years of this policy it's clear it's not working .
Even people on reasonable incomes cannot secure a home but the deflection always seeks to target people at the bottom. I could take some notice of the OP but to me she has zero credibility based on her pervious posting history.

suicide_circus

FG are not some unaccountable dictatorship. They got voted in.

Graces7

Jasper79 wrote: »

There is no perfect solution. However people on social housing should not be provided better housing/locations than the average working person can afford.

If you cannot afford to live in Dublin for example or any city then you have to move outside of it. Whether you pay yourself or from the state. The state ( Taxpayers) should not be on the hook for subsidizing your unaffordable lifestyle housing/childcare Indefinitely.

Welfare should be short term for anybody who is able to work. And people on welfare should accept they are not going to and are not entitled to the same lifestyle as people not on welfare.[/QUOTE]

We rarely do. Believe me. And why not anyways?