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Should those who make false rape allegations against others be punished.

2

Comments

  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 15,814 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mutant z wrote:
    When you look at the case in Belfast with those rugby players who could have their whole careers destroyed because of rape allegations which they have now been cleared of but they will still have that hanging over them for the rest of their lives even when you look at Twitter and the mobs who were accusing them of all sorts it shows how much damage these kind of lies can do to someone.


    Did I miss the part where she was convicted of perjury for lying? Being found innocent in a court of law does not mean that you are, particularly in rape cases where more often than not it boils down to a he said, she said situation.


  • #33
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Can anyone honestly imagine if someone lied about another person either violently assaulting them, or stealing from them, or any of whole myriad of other crimes, that anyone would have the gall to suggest that we shouldn't prosecute these people for their lies as that could mean that real victims of those crimes might not report them. Is this the bloody Twilight Zone or what.

    But yet with rape, we hear it all the bloody time. It's ridiculous. If someone lies about someone raping, and it can be proven in a court that they did so (not saying it has been here) then of bloody course that person should be punished for it. It angers me (but doesn't remotely surprise me) that feminists campaign for lighter sentences for these women.

    Here's just one example of that happening:

    A trainee barrister has been jailed after being found guilty of falsely accusing her former boyfriend of a series of rapes and assaults.

    Sentencing Rhiannon Brooker, 30, to three and half years, the judge Julian Lambert said she had acted in an "utterly wicked" way and argued that false claims made it more difficult for real rape victims to be believed in court.

    There was anger from women's rights campaigners who claimed that such severe sentences would put off rape victims from going to the police for fear they could face prosecution if allegations were not proven. There were cries of "Shame" and "Miscarriage of justice" as Brooker's sentence was handed down.

    Brooker's former partner Paul Fensome, a railway signalman, was held behind bars for 37 days after she accused him of a string of rapes and assaults. While in custody, Fensome was held in a secure wing after rumours went around that he was a paedophile. He has since received £38,000 compensation.


  • #34
    stimpson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,711 ✭✭✭stimpson


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Did I miss the part where she was convicted of perjury for lying? Being found innocent in a court of law does not mean that you are, particularly in rape cases where more often than not it boils down to a he said, she said situation.

    Nobody is found innocent. You are presumed innocent. The burden of proof is on the accuser.


  • #35
    Vladimir Poontang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Vladimir Poontang


    dieselbug wrote: »
    A person who alleges they were raped is not necessarily lying, they may believe they were raped but a court may decide otherwise ie not legally raped.
    It doesn't mean it's a made up false allegation or deliberate lie.

    However a deliberate false allegation with the intention of damaging someone should certainly be heavily punished.

    We need to teach our women to understand what rape actually is and the seriousness of making a false rape claim.

    There should be classes in schools and colleges about it.


  • #36
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Vladimir Poontang wrote:
    We need to teach our women to understand what rape actually is and the seriousness of making a false rape claim.

    Why only teach the women?


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  • #37
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,568 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Vladimir Poontang wrote: »
    We need to teach our women to understand what rape actually is and the seriousness of making a false rape claim.
    Your phrasing isn't coming across particularly well there.

    Gosh, where would our women be without us to teach them things.


  • #38
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,439 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Your phrasing isn't coming across particularly well there.

    Gosh, where would our women be without us to teach them things.


    Its actually put brilliantly, because it's making exactly the point about how absurd it is the suggestion that men need to be "taught" what is rape. Women don't need to be "taught" what is rape either, and that's the point.


  • #39
    Vladimir Poontang
    Closed Accounts Posts: 657 ✭✭✭Vladimir Poontang


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Your phrasing isn't coming across particularly well there.

    Gosh, where would our women be without us to teach them things.

    I agree. I merely co-opted the language used to push consent classes in our schools and universities and swapped rape and women for consent and men.


  • #40
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,083 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Vladimir Poontang wrote: »
    We need to teach our women to understand what rape actually is and the seriousness of making a false rape claim.

    There should be classes in schools and colleges about it.

    The course code could be MNSP101


    No prizes for guessing what thats short for.


  • #41
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    TheChizler wrote: »
    Your phrasing isn't coming across particularly well there.

    I took it as a piss take on all the talk of consent classes myself.


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  • #42
    HONKEY TONK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭HONKEY TONK


    Im just amazed that if you are being accused of rape you are push in front of the spot light for everyone to see while your accuser stands in the shadows of anonymity.

    Either all parties are named or no one is named


  • #43
    The Backwards Man
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,299 ✭✭✭✭The Backwards Man


    Vladimir Poontang wrote: »
    I agree. I merely co-opted the language used to push consent classes in our schools and universities and swapped rape and women for consent and men.

    Maybe I'm old, but in my day it was our upbringing, our parents, our grandparents, our peers, that taught us about consent and what it means. If it's up to universities to teach consent then the battle is already lost.


  • #44
    Vojera
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Vojera


    HONKEY TONK wrote: »
    Im just amazed that if you are being accused of rape you are push in front of the spot light for everyone to see while your accuser stands in the shadows of anonymity.

    Either all parties are named or no one is named
    I think they said on the radio today that that happens in the UK justice system but doesn't happen in Ireland.

    Imo, all parties should be kept anonymous until a verdict is reached.


  • #45
    TheChizler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,568 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    Vladimir Poontang wrote: »
    I agree. I merely co-opted the language used to push consent classes in our schools and universities and swapped rape and women for consent and men.
    Whoosh... That was your point going over my head. Poe's law and all that.


  • #46
    _Dara_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,971 ✭✭✭_Dara_


    Mutant z wrote: »
    When you look at the case in Belfast with those rugby players who could have their whole careers destroyed because of rape allegations which they have now been cleared of but they will still have that hanging over them for the rest of their lives even when you look at Twitter and the mobs who were accusing them of all sorts it shows how much damage these kind of lies can do to someone.

    That still doesn’t mean that the accuser in this case made a malicious false allegation. The social media mob stuff is completely separate.

    Posts #2 and #5 just about cover my thoughts on the topic.


  • #47
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,519 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Mint Sauce wrote: »
    Why shame on her, just because they were found not guilty, does not mean she made it up. Something certiainly happened in Paddy Jacksons bedroom, but only the ones present in the room know what that was. Women should still not fear going to the Guards here, or the Police anywhere else, if they feel they have been a victim.

    Are you serious....

    I said if false...

    In no way would I suggest what you just stated I said.

    If it's true sad for her if not then shame on her.
    If they did shame on them guys and if not feel bad for them.


  • #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Atoms for Peace wrote: »
    Reading between the lines, considering the current news headlines, the jist of this thread is quite nasty.

    agree completely. I am disgusted that this thread was started yesterday considering the deeply troubling and upsetting events up the North

    But hey it could just be a coincidence


  • #49
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,094 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Its actually put brilliantly, because it's making exactly the point about how absurd it is the suggestion that men need to be "taught" what is rape. Women don't need to be "taught" what is rape either, and that's the point.

    With respect, in 2018 I think a lot of us need to be taught what 'rape' is. When I was growing up it was forced sexual intercourse. Now there's "digital rape", "oral rape" and others. The definition has been extended and it behoves every sexually active person to be very clear about this, and what potential charges they could face if things go wrong. I'd be very much in favour of boys (especially) from 15 on being taught this in school so that they are wise to potential consequences of actions. That, and the intrinsic smartness of being guided by basic respect in all their dealings with the opposite sex. Inculcating 'respect' is, however, "too moralistic" for some people.

    Types of Rape


  • #50
    magnumbud
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,531 ✭✭✭magnumbud


    if during the investigation or the trial it becomes clear that the evidence shows the person who claims they were raped, man or woman, did lie i.e. they have text someone saying they did this on purpose , they were caught on tape admitting it or admit it to the police/courtroom then sure the person should be but as has been said them being found not guilty does not mean she's lied in this case. she may very well believe she was raped but their is no evidence to say it was non consensual forced sex so that is not a lie.

    put it this way to those who view her as a liar due to the not guilty verdict. if she was put on trial now for false claims and was found not guilty in that she genuinely believed this was rape does that then flip again and mean they raped her? no it doesn't.

    The main issue for these lads is the british ruling where the defendants in a trial like this can be named publicly. in an ideal world the 4 of them and herself would not be named publicly in anyway unless any of them were found guilty of the law. people could argue they were named so she should be but 2 wrongs dont make a right.


  • #51
    Anne1982h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Anne1982h


    Mutant z wrote: »
    When you look at the case in Belfast with those rugby players who could have their whole careers destroyed because of rape allegations which they have now been cleared of but they will still have that hanging over them for the rest of their lives even when you look at Twitter and the mobs who were accusing them of all sorts it shows how much damage these kind of lies can do to someone.

    Your initial comment refers to false allegations. This was not the case in this trial so it is an incorrect/bad example. They jury were asked to acquit them if they did not believe beyond a reasonable doubt that they were guilty. Given the he said she said nature of events in a rape trial it is virtually impossible to say that they 100% did it with zero doubt in any jurors mind. So they were found not guilty. It is not a situation where a false allegation was made.


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  • #52
    Anne1982h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Anne1982h


    Mutant z wrote: »
    But still found not guilty regardless which usually means you are cleared of the crime you have been accused there was just too many inconsistencies in that case to take it at face value regardless the point im making those who tell blatant lies to falsely accuse others should definitely be punished which is the point of this.

    If this is the point you are making maybe you should refer to an accurate example to reflect it instead of heavily implying that the woman involved in that trial was lying/making a false allegation..


  • #53
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,048 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #54
    Anne1982h
    Closed Accounts Posts: 77 ✭✭Anne1982h


    ....... wrote: »
    People are found not guilty in court all the time when they are actually guilty.

    Lack of evidence, lack of witnesses, lack of information altogether.

    A verdict of Not Guilty may mean the person is not guilty, but it may just mean that there wasnt enough evidence to find them guilty.

    Its bad form that someone has started a thread specifically to shame this girl when there is nothing to indicate that she reported the situation maliciously.

    It seems clear to me that it was this persons intent to stir up vitriol against this girl given their language and the question asked (i.e. toxic, radical feminists)


  • #55
    Triangle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Triangle


    dieselbug wrote: »
    A person who alleges they were raped is not necessarily lying, they may believe they were raped but a court may decide otherwise ie not legally raped.
    It doesn't mean it's a made up false allegation or deliberate lie.

    However a deliberate false allegation with the intention of damaging someone should certainly be heavily punished.

    But a person who doesn't think they're raping someone can be convicted of rape. Ignorance is no excuse.

    And the only third party witness stated she thought it was consensual. Why is everyone protecting her. She's doing more harm to rape Victims than the 4 guys.


  • #56
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Vladimir Poontang wrote: »
    We need to teach our women to understand what rape actually is and the seriousness of making a false rape claim.

    There should be classes in schools and colleges about it.

    So mansplain it to them?

    Boys and girls should be taught about sex education properly. Consent, homosexuality, the lot.


  • #57
    Triangle
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 964 ✭✭✭Triangle


    Faugheen wrote: »
    So mansplain it to them?

    Boys and girls should be taught about sex education properly. Consent, homosexuality, the lot.

    This is feminist dribble, you can add to a discussion without being sexist.


  • #58
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,048 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • #59
    Sidebaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 178 ✭✭Sidebaro


    Triangle wrote:
    And the only third party witness stated she thought it was consensual. Why is everyone protecting her. She's doing more harm to rape Victims than the 4 guys.

    If she lied then you might have a point but she hasn't been proven to have lied.


  • #60
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    I presume we're all agreed that false rape allegations are very rare, and false rape allegations that make it to court are rarer still?


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  • #61
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,129 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    HONKEY TONK wrote: »
    Im just amazed that if you are being accused of rape you are push in front of the spot light for everyone to see while your accuser stands in the shadows of anonymity.

    Either all parties are named or no one is named

    Naming the accused has helped other victims to come forward in the past. The John worboys case in the UK for example. People accused of all other crimes are named, why should rape be any different?

    Victims being named will put people off coming forward. Given that there are only a tiny number of false accusations and huge numbers of unreported and unprosecuted rapes, it will do more harm than good.


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