Minority of British Citizens want NI to remain part of the United Kingdom

Sand · 27-03-2018 10:03PM

end of the road wrote: »

remember though that northern ireland is a very small region, which is unlikely to be able to independantly survive by itself. the other regions which currently have campaigns for independance such as catalonia and so on are quite big and will survive independantly.

Survival outside the EU might be questionable, but the prosperity of the single market, the four freedoms, the complete lack of a credible military threat and the common regulatory framework make the survival of very small states perfectly viable. At least if they are far from Russia. Big states were a result of historical pressures that don't exist within the context of the EU.

Spain would veto the membership of Catalonia, but I cant see Ireland vetoing EU membership if Northern Ireland is re-partitioned, with only hard majority unionist areas remaining. It would be win-win for Ireland: extract concessions from Northern Ireland, grant it EU membership that suits Ireland's own interests, and avoid a hefty bill for a sullen, resentful population who don't want to be in a United Ireland.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 27-03-2018 10:25PM

Northern Ireland is like that spoilt brat of a child that no one really likes and neither parent wants custody of when gong through an otherwise amicable divorce.

Chris_Heilong · 27-03-2018 10:26PM

As a kid I might have thought NI should be a part of the republic but with the wisdom of age I say I dont want them, we can not afford them and the troubles that would start up from the whole business.

Do we really want this:

blanch152 · 27-03-2018 10:30PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

The poll doesn't show, as claimed that "minority of British Citizens want NI to remain part of the United Kingdom". It shows that a minority of British citizens rate that as a more important objective than maintaining the Union. It doesn't follow that those rate Brexit more important don't want to maintain the Union. They may want both. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that the bulk of Brexiters do want both, regardless of which order they rank them in.

Exactly. Have a poll of Irish people asking them whether they would prefer:

(1) To win the lotto, or
(2) To have a united Ireland.

You would probably get over 80% voting for (1) and most of those voting for (2) only doing so because they believe it is slightly more realistic than winning the lotto.

The poll, as presented by YouGov, has no meaning, other than to show that ordinary British people remain extremely committed to Brexit.

27-03-2018 11:23PM

blanch152 wrote: »

The poll, as presented by YouGov, has no meaning, other than to show that ordinary British people remain extremely committed to Brexit.

The irony of attempting to denude the poll of the meaning you don't like and then claiming something as utterly preposterous as the bold part because it's the meaning you'd like to be a reality. From the poll:

Which of these is a greater priority for you?
That the United Kingdom leaves the European Union 36 %
That the union between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is maintained 29 %
Neither of these are important to me 22%
Don’t know 14%

Beasty · 27-03-2018 11:36PM

Many British see NI as a source of trouble, and more importantly cost. They would be delighted to see the current €10-15bn pumped into NI every year being used to reduce the cost of Brexit

Can't see how Ireland could afford to pump that sort of cash into the North.

Sleepy · 28-03-2018 10:17AM

Ireland can't afford the north.

As of December 2008 the public sector in Northern Ireland accounted for 30.8% of the total workforce. If the British withdrew, that would be a lot of unemployed PS workers. Sure, some front-line workers (teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen etc) would still be necessary but a lot of the admin staff would be utterly redundant as our departments wouldn't need all of them. Can a PSNI officer just be given a Garda uniform and told he/she is now part of a different force? Wouldn't they need complete re-training to ensure they know the laws of the Republic rather than those of the UK?

Even where jobs are roughly equivalent (and still required) contractual issues would be a nightmare to resolve, finding equivalent grades and roles within our PS to those of the workers. How do you get the Unions to play ball on salary issues? Bring every PS worker in the country to the higher current pay level for each role? That could possibly leave staff earning more than managers they report to. Bring all Northern workers onto the equivalent salary of their Republican counterpart? Would the Unions stand for so many pay-cuts?

We'd also have another 30,000 or so unemployed to pay dole for, god knows how many pensioners (who'd never have contributed to our exchequer) to pay pensions for and a private sector that doesn't generate enough tax to cover the costs.

If unification ever happens, it'll mean very hard times for the Irish. And that's before you even consider the potential for Unionist-lead violence and political instability.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 28-03-2018 10:47AM

They're in a terribly unfortunate situation and I really feel for the North. Not wanted by anyone. The red headed stepchild of the British Isles.

Oh sure Britain would love to dump them on our shoulders but they should realise that we will not stand for it.

They're your problem British people not ours. Don't you dare try and fck up our country.

end of the road · 28-03-2018 11:09AM

Sleepy wrote: »

Ireland can't afford the north.

well it will have to. reunification is going to happen, so we will have to find the money.

Sleepy wrote: »

As of December 2008 the public sector in Northern Ireland accounted for 30.8% of the total workforce. If the British withdrew, that would be a lot of unemployed PS workers. Sure, some front-line workers (teachers, nurses, doctors, firemen etc) would still be necessary but a lot of the admin staff would be utterly redundant as our departments wouldn't need all of them. Can a PSNI officer just be given a Garda uniform and told he/she is now part of a different force? Wouldn't they need complete re-training to ensure they know the laws of the Republic rather than those of the UK?

Even where jobs are roughly equivalent (and still required) contractual issues would be a nightmare to resolve, finding equivalent grades and roles within our PS to those of the workers. How do you get the Unions to play ball on salary issues? Bring every PS worker in the country to the higher current pay level for each role? That could possibly leave staff earning more than managers they report to. Bring all Northern workers onto the equivalent salary of their Republican counterpart? Would the Unions stand for so many pay-cuts?

We'd also have another 30,000 or so unemployed to pay dole for, god knows how many pensioners (who'd never have contributed to our exchequer) to pay pensions for and a private sector that doesn't generate enough tax to cover the costs.

If unification ever happens, it'll mean very hard times for the Irish. And that's before you even consider the potential for Unionist-lead violence and political instability.[/QUOTE]

it's not a case of if, it's a case of when. the end game is reunification. whether people like it, want it or not. if there is any unionist violence, and that is an if, it would very likely be containible given they would have no support from the british government or army and hardly anyone in their community. they would be fighting for nothing. everything else you mention would likely be sorted during a transition period. it would have to be.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

They're in a terribly unfortunate situation and I really feel for the North. Not wanted by anyone. The red headed stepchild of the British Isles.

Oh sure Britain would love to dump them on our shoulders but they should realise that we will not stand for it.

They're your problem British people not ours. Don't you dare try and fck up our country.

they will be our problem eventually as they are part of our country. you won't have a choice but to stand for it. britain could make things very difficult for us if we refuse to except northern ireland. trade blockades, navel blockades, etc.
the EU will just huff and puff and blow the house down but that is probably all they will be able to do.

antamadan · 28-03-2018 11:23AM

very interesting poll. After all the Brexiteers almost completely match those that think the British Empire was great, and yet they'd dump the North to do trade deals with Australia NZ etc.

heebusjeebus · 28-03-2018 11:24AM

end of the road wrote: »

well it will have to. reunification is going to happen, so we will have to find the money.

Surely there will be a referendum before this is foisted on us?
I don't see it happening unless the economic situation up north is more self sufficient.

Greentopia · 28-03-2018 11:56AM

end of the road wrote: »

well it will have to. reunification is going to happen, so we will have to find the money.

You keep saying that but there is no large scale movement for it anywhere except for Sinn Fein. No-one I know has any strong feelings about wanting reunification. If you're looking for the younger generation in Ireland to mobilise and demand a referendum on this you'll be waiting.

What happens in the North is way down most people's list of priorities, and saying things like "well we'll just have to pay for it" doesn't help win people over when we can't provide decent public services or governance for our own people.

I don't want the myriad problems that would inevitably come with a united Ireland. Especially disgruntled unionists who would inevitably take out their anger on us in violent ways. No thanks.

end of the road · 28-03-2018 12:33PM

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Surely there will be a referendum before this is foisted on us?
I don't see it happening unless the economic situation up north is more self sufficient.

there will be a referendum, but britain and the EU will likely do whatever they can to insure a yes vote is sellible to the people. look reunification isn't going to happen today or tomorrow, it's years maybe decades away if not longer. but it is going to happen as that is the end game.

Greentopia wrote: »

You keep saying that but there is no large scale movement for it anywhere except for Sinn Fein. No-one I know has any strong feelings about wanting reunification. If you're looking for the younger generation in Ireland to mobilise and demand a referendum on this you'll be waiting.

What happens in the North is way down most people's list of priorities, and saying things like "well we'll just have to pay for it" doesn't help win people over when we can't provide decent public services or governance for our own people.

I don't want the myriad problems that would inevitably come with a united Ireland. Especially disgruntled unionists who would inevitably take out their anger on us in violent ways. No thanks.

you are assuming we will be in a position to say no . i'd suspect we won't. britain wants rid of NI and the EU seems to want a sea border with the uk mainland. i reccan they will do what they need to do to insure a yes vote.

Greentopia · 28-03-2018 01:00PM

end of the road wrote: »

you are assuming we will be in a position to say no . i'd suspect we won't. britain wants rid of NI and the EU seems to want a sea border with the uk mainland. i reccan they will do what they need to do to insure a yes vote.

They may want to offload it but we're a democratic state, the UK can't foist something like that on us without us having a democratic vote on it. They don't get to decide sh1t for us any more, those days are over, even more so when they will have left the EU.

And I think there are plenty of Catholics in NI who wouldn't want to see a united Ireland either, never mind the unionists. Why would they want an inferior health care service and bigger class sizes for heir kids? where would the €10 billion hole in their economy come from when we can't afford it? they're not blind, they see how Ireland has been run since independence.

A united Ireland may be a noble idea but the realities of what it would mean for people both sides of the border means no-one is in any rush to want to see it happen save hard core nationalists. I don't see it ever happening tbh.

Dick phelan · 28-03-2018 01:11PM

I just can't see how North and South will ever join together again. Firstly NI would have to vote for it which i don't see a vote happening anytime soon, also surely we would all have to vote on it as well. I think most in the Republic would vote against it tbh, we've enough problems without adding a largely economic basket case, politically unstable and in general more backward place to the list. I've no doubt the Brits regrets not giving us the 6 counties back when they could have. They are stuck with them now and let them at it tbh, it's not our problem it's their's.

wes · 28-03-2018 01:24PM

end of the road wrote: »

to be fair that in itself would be a good thing. the DUP end up buried and jeremy likely becomes prime minister.

but then we are stuck with them :eek:.

end of the road · 28-03-2018 01:49PM

Greentopia wrote: »

They may want to offload it but we're a democratic state, the UK can't foist something like that on us without us having a democratic vote on it. They don't get to decide sh1t for us any more, those days are over, even more so when they will have left the EU.

And I think there are plenty of Catholics in NI who wouldn't want to see a united Ireland either, never mind the unionists. Why would they want an inferior health care service and bigger class sizes for heir kids? where would the €10 billion hole in their economy come from when we can't afford it? they're not blind, they see how Ireland has been run since independence.

A united Ireland may be a noble idea but the realities of what it would mean for people both sides of the border means no-one is in any rush to want to see it happen save hard core nationalists. I don't see it ever happening tbh.

as much as some seem to think otherwise, britain isn't exactly ran any beter then ourselves. in fact in many ways it seems to be a hell of a lot worse. the nhs will probably be privatized eventually anyway so for northern ireland it's not going to be the b all and end all to stay part of britain for.

i believe it would be naive to think britain wouldn't poke us in the direction of excepting a UI. if they wanted they could still do us a lot of economic damage. essentially the outcome of a referendum in the south is probably unlikely to matter when it comes to it, because it will be about the benefit of britain getting shot of northern ireland and the EU'S possible long term vision of a sea border between the island of ireland and the uk.

Dick phelan wrote: »

I just can't see how North and South will ever join together again. Firstly NI would have to vote for it which i don't see a vote happening anytime soon, also surely we would all have to vote on it as well. I think most in the Republic would vote against it tbh, we've enough problems without adding a largely economic basket case, politically unstable and in general more backward place to the list. I've no doubt the Brits regrets not giving us the 6 counties back when they could have. They are stuck with them now and let them at it tbh, it's not our problem it's their's.

it is our problem, and it will be more so our problem when it happens. the supposed economic arguments are failed arguments which have only come about in the past few years because people seem not to be able to formulate an argument as to why a UI actually shouldn't happen. in reality, there is no argument why a UI shouldn't happen given ultimately it is the end game of the full process of the GFA.

Jacko753 · 28-03-2018 01:56PM

NI is not a part of the UK.

NI is part of the Republic proclaimed in 1916 but through years of propaganda and intimidation Britain convinced the other 26 counties that they are better off without them.

In 1979 an extensive poll throughout the 26 counties showed nearly 90 percent of people in the 26 wanted complete immediate unilateral British withdrawal from the 6 counties but with all the propaganda flooded into the 26 counties over the years people have lost interest and are convinced that they should stay separate

OldMrBrennan83 · 28-03-2018 01:58PM

This post has been deleted.

ChikiChiki · 28-03-2018 02:06PM

Ain't karma a bitch. Taking a small bit of glee in how this looks like the NI issue is going to continue to deliver the UK a serious kick when its already down.

If we were to take NI back security costs would need to be EU subsidised for a significant period until full integration. Cannot see the bigotted "No Surrender" crowd making things easy for a couple of decades however they are dying out and the younger generations of loyalists (35 and unders) seem to be a lot more open to reconciliations and wanting to move forward in a peaceful manner.

Some medium term pain but I think reunification could work in time and we will need EU financial support on implementation before we can stand on our own.

Thomas__. · 28-03-2018 02:12PM

end of the road wrote: »

it's certainly great news. i have said for a long time now that britain doesn't want northern ireland. i can't see that this new revelation will bring unification closer though, unfortunately.

This is clear to everyone who has dealt with NI politics for years but maybe the downfall of the DUP will bring unification closer, when they get the boot for pushing for a hard Brexit. Maybe then some U/L dinosaurs will finally wake up and realise what they have done to them, more so when the wishful-thinking-golden-post-Brexit era turns out to be an utter nightmare. The majority in NI voted for remain in the Brexit Ref, but as usual, the will of the majority of the People means nothing to the DUP at all and they should get what they deserve for that, one day in the future and this is to be sent into political oblivion for good.

Capt'n Midnight · 28-03-2018 06:00PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Can a PSNI officer just be given a Garda uniform and told he/she is now part of a different force?

Would these be the same RUC officers who were given PSNI uniforms a while back ?

Policing is similar, arrest them first on suspicion and then figure out what to charge them with later.

What did they do in Germany on reunification ?

You could make NI a autonomous province with it's own rules, like the way it, like Scotland have some different rules to England.

Sleepy · 29-03-2018 09:38AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Would these be the same RUC officers who were given PSNI uniforms a while back ?

Policing is similar, arrest them first on suspicion and then figure out what to charge them with later.

Rather different to change the uniforms of a police service enforcing the same set of laws to one enforcing a completely different legal system. I'm sure it's possible, but it would be an expensive, and lengthy process.

I love how the Sinn Fein fantasists just expect the rest of the country to accept the unification of our country with a basket-case as the "end game" simply because that's what they say it is.

The only time Ireland has ever been "unified" was when it was a part of the British Empire so even calling it a "reunification" is something of a misnomer.

For an awful lot of us, it's quite simple: we don't *want* Northern Ireland as part of our country. We don't want to pay higher taxes because they can't support themselves. We don't want their hardline nutjobs voting in our elections. We don't want their terrorists in our Dail or bombing our people.

Thomas__. · 29-03-2018 10:07AM

Sleepy wrote: »

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Would these be the same RUC officers who were given PSNI uniforms a while back ?

Policing is similar, arrest them first on suspicion and then figure out what to charge them with later.

Rather different to change the uniforms of a police service enforcing the same set of laws to one enforcing a completely different legal system. I'm sure it's possible, but it would be an expensive, and lengthy process.

I love how the Sinn Fein fantasists just expect the rest of the country to accept the unification of our country with a basket-case as the "end game" simply because that's what they say it is.

The only time Ireland has ever been "unified" was when it was a part of the British Empire so even calling it a "reunification" is something of a misnomer.

For an awful lot of us, it's quite simple: we don't *want* Northern Ireland as part of our country. We don't want to pay higher taxes because they can't support themselves. We don't want their hardline nutjobs voting in our elections. We don't want their terrorists in our Dail or bombing our people.

It went exactly the way Capt said. STASI Agents (professional or informal ones) were outsourced, older close to retirement given early retirement and the others fit for service taken over. They just had to adopt to the new system (by training) and that was it.

whisky_galore · 29-03-2018 10:16AM

corny wrote: »

Its hardly surprising. Irrespective of your politics....why on earth would anyone (UK or Ireland) want union with the north?

Jesus, i'd march the streets to prevent a united Ireland.

Sometimes I wish it could be sawn off and left float away..

Sleepy · 29-03-2018 10:26AM

Thomas__. wrote: »

It went exactly the way Capt said. STASI Agents (professional or informal ones) were outsourced, older close to retirement given early retirement and the others fit for service taken over. They just had to adopt to the new system (by training) and that was it.

I don't doubt either of you: after all the change from the RUC to the PSNI was little more than a rebranding exercise carried out as a sop to Sinn Fein and their supports. A new police force replaced an existing one, operating in the same jurisdiction, enforcing the same laws as the old one.

The level of training required to turn PSNI officers into Gardaí would be far more lengthy and expensive. That said, it could be for the betterment of the force overall. Though, the new expanded force would likely have far more work to do than at present given the near certainty of violence from Unionist terrorists.

Thomas__. · 29-03-2018 11:28AM

Sleepy wrote: »

Thomas__. wrote: »

It went exactly the way Capt said. STASI Agents (professional or informal ones) were outsourced, older close to retirement given early retirement and the others fit for service taken over. They just had to adopt to the new system (by training) and that was it.

I don't doubt either of you: after all the change from the RUC to the PSNI was little more than a rebranding exercise carried out as a sop to Sinn Fein and their supports. A new police force replaced an existing one, operating in the same jurisdiction, enforcing the same laws as the old one.

The level of training required to turn PSNI officers into Gardaí would be far more lengthy and expensive. That said, it could be for the betterment of the force overall. Though, the new expanded force would likely have far more work to do than at present given the near certainty of violence from Unionist terrorists.

Well, there is no doubt that a UI won't come for scot free. It will cost and how much it will cost remains to be calculated but for that one has at least get the right figures to work with. No undertakings have been taken on to start with it. At least I never noticed anything about that in the media.

The transformation from the RUC into the present PSNI wasn't as much a big deal (I presume) like to have to transfer the PSNI into the Gardaí as this, as you pointed out, requires training to the law and practice of the Republic policing. Still, the transformation of the RUC into the PSNI was a necessary step towards the aim of a UI in order to change a once sectarian Police Force into a non-sectarian on and thus make it a bit easier to integrate them once a UI is about to become a reality. There is certainly no doubt that SF played a major role in that transformation.

I have no doubt that a new, or let it be put more realistically - territorial and personell extended - Gardaí would had more work on their hands because both forces would be combined into one. The hot spots would be as today, like Dublin, Belfast and other cities and greater towns in Ireland. A matter to be looked after is the pensions for retired Police personell in NI and whether they'd get the pensions from the UK (or what will be left of it) or from the Republic for their years of service. Normally, for those already retired and those about to be in a short time after re-unification, it would be Westminster to pay for them. One could spin it further regarding various details and it would be to little avail unless one does it with proper figures. The result might deter even more people from the idea of a UI and be against it, just like you.

Sleepy · 29-03-2018 01:30PM

TBH, I'd see the carrying out of such an exercise as an awful misuse of taxpayers money until there's evidence that a United Ireland is something the vast majority of Irish people want. And would expect two referendums on the issue: a first to authorise the government to carry out an exploratory feasibility study that would and design a framework for such a unification including detailed costings and financing details for this and a second to authorise them to proceed with the process. Like you suggest, I think when the average armchair republican was shown a detailed cost estimate for unification, they wouldn't be long in changing their mind about unification. I'd be fairly convinced that a unification would leave Ireland teetering on the edge of bankruptcy for generations.

It's rather telling that for all their calling for a United Ireland, Sinn Fein have never actually carried out such a costing exercise, nor provided any detailed suggestion for how unification could be paid for. Hardly surprising though since their TDs have rarely, if ever, managed to provide realistic costings for their populist suggestions in the country they're actually paid to be legislators for.

end of the road · 29-03-2018 01:57PM

Sleepy wrote: »

Rather different to change the uniforms of a police service enforcing the same set of laws to one enforcing a completely different legal system. I'm sure it's possible, but it would be an expensive, and lengthy process.

I love how the Sinn Fein fantasists just expect the rest of the country to accept the unification of our country with a basket-case as the "end game" simply because that's what they say it is.

The only time Ireland has ever been "unified" was when it was a part of the British Empire so even calling it a "reunification" is something of a misnomer.

For an awful lot of us, it's quite simple: we don't *want* Northern Ireland as part of our country. We don't want to pay higher taxes because they can't support themselves. We don't want their hardline nutjobs voting in our elections. We don't want their terrorists in our Dail or bombing our people.

it is still reunification as the 1 island is uniting under the one government. you may not want reunification with northern ireland but at some stage down the line it is going to happen whether you want it or not. if britain wants it, it will happen. best start getting used to the idea now for your own sake. any of the "arguments" you have put forward will not come to pass as it is highly likely there will be a transition period in which everything will have to be ironed out. as per your next post it's unlikely there will be 2 referendums in the south. they are not required as per the GFA as i understand. only 1 in the north and one in the south.

Mutant z · 29-03-2018 02:04PM

Not surprising really its always been seen as the needy little brother clinging to the coattails of the rest of the UK they just laugh at unionists refering to themselves as British they would drop them in a heartbeat if they could its inevitable it will happen sooner or later.

Minority of British Citizens want NI to remain part of the United Kingdom

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