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The 8th Amendment Part 2 - Mod Warning in OP

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Comments

  • #1772
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    Horrifically sad. What is already a beyond sad circumstance becomes a nightmare.

    When you should be just grieving, that you have to think of all that other logistical stuff.

    Sounds like so sensitively handled by all the medical staff - and most importantly not pressured either way - it was her own choice to make if she wished to carry to full term or not. And plenty of scans along the journey for her to make that choice.

    But she still had to fekn travel *angry face*

    Why oh why Ireland why


  • #1773
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    I’ve noticed the PLC seem to have dropped the ‘women being pressured by medical staff into having abortions’ bullsh!t. Probably a wise move on their part when you see stories like the above.


  • #1774
    neonsofa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    amdublin wrote: »

    Sounds like so sensitively handled by all the medical staff - and most importantly not pressured either way - it was her own choice to make if she wished to carry to full term or not. And plenty of scans along the journey for her to make that choice.

    The part about the lady refunding her the scan fee was like a smack in the heart for me. Such a kind thing to do but for such a sad reason. I can only imagine her pain.

    I know of a couple (as in a man and wife, not a couple of people it happened to) who experienced something similar. It's not just one or two sad cases that unfortunately happen, it's happening to a number of families, and their extended family and friends hurt with them. One family is one too many to be honest.


  • #1775
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    david75 wrote: »
    broken after reading this.


    ”In 2015 I was 21, and beaming with excitement that I was pregnant with our first child, same time as my sister too.

    .......

    We laid him to rest the next day, it was Mother’s Day, my first ever Mother’s Day and I burried my precious son whom I would of took my last breath so he could take his first. Luke was 3 last week and I think about him every minute of the day. ��

    Repeal the 8th so women don’t have to travel, don’t have to bring there baby home on a boat in the middle of the night in a boot of a car. I always feel so much was taken away from me. I would of loved my other sisters and my family to meet my son but they couldn’t, my home country let me down, let my son down and took so much away from us.”
    #repealthe8th

    ---

    TFMR Ireland

    Leanbh mo Chroí
    The thing that comes through most strongly in that account is that this woman feels that she was carrying a child in her womb, her child, another human being. It is from that, ultimately, that her distress arose. She did not feel that hers was principally a medical problem and certainly not one requiring the removal of a clump of cells. She felt all the anguish of a mother whose child had a life threatening condition.

    There is an argument to be had over whether an exception should be made in law for cases like these, cases abortion advocates like to label as fatal fetal abnormality. The reason we have heard so little over the years about these cases and the reason they haven't been the focus of a major political and media campaign is that they are well defined and can't be used as wedge cases to open the flood gates to abortion on demand/request. Unlike rape for example.

    Which is a pity.


  • #1776
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    The outcome is the same. Doctors can’t act as their hands are tied by the eighth.
    No family should have to go through this. She could have been saved all this trauma had she had access here to the Proper medical care earlier.


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  • #1777
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    david75 wrote: »
    The outcome is the same. Doctors can’t act as their hands are tied by the eighth.
    No family should have to go through this. She could have been saved all this trauma had she had access here to the Proper medical care earlier.
    Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.

    This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.

    Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.


  • #1778
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    david75 wrote: »
    broken after reading this.

    Repeal the 8th so women don’t have to travel, don’t have to bring there baby home on a boat in the middle of the night in a boot of a car. I always feel so much was taken away from me. I would of loved my other sisters and my family to meet my son but they couldn’t, my home country let me down, let my son down and took so much away from us.”
    #repealthe8th

    ---

    TFMR Ireland

    Leanbh mo Chroí

    That would break your heart. What an awful unnecessary ordeal forced upon that woman and her family. You'd wonder how many women have travelled to the UK under those same circumstances?

    When she described the man hugging her outside the hospital, I actually felt some hope, hope that all is not lost and people can still show compassion and hopefully that will come through in May.

    It's thinking of women walking around pregnant when they don't want to be pregnant and people asking them about their pregnancy that always gets to me. Imagine how awful that is.


  • #1779
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.

    This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.

    Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.


    Used as a pawn??
    Want to talk about pawns? Pro life campaign rolling out people who claim to have been aborted and survived in buckets left to die but survived? Also rolling out effectively rape babies ‘I would be dead if my mother aborted me’ etc for want of a better term, all the worst kind of extremes and rarities in order to emotionally manipulate the whole debate!
    That’s using people and extremes as pawns.

    FFA happens EVERY DAY. to dismiss any woman’s testimony and strength in sharing her story is really disrespectful and diminishes your point.


  • #1780
    Zerbini Blewitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭Zerbini Blewitt


    amdublin wrote: »
    ...
    Why oh why Ireland why

    If pro-lifers have a vote to repeal the 8th on their Earth-life score-sheet, they are (mostly) so afraid of the incandescent rage of almighty God who will without a shadow of a doubt (in their strange belief system) slam the gates of heaven in their face and cast them into eternal damnation.

    I am being serious.

    They believe these cases of intense suffering above are God’s will and thus they don’t rest on a pro-lifers conscience (in defending- retain the 8th). They see themselves as the good guys here :rolleyes:

    Pure evil madness…


  • #1781
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.

    This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.

    Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.

    What is irrelevant in the woman's story? She was told her baby would not live and if born would be in agony. To compound this terrible news she couldn't receive the required medical services here in Ireland and had to travel to England to receive it because of the 8th.

    Is she just a pawn because the story doesn't suit your agenda, because your post certainly reads this way and shows the willful disregard for women that the prolife side have, other then to be incubators.


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  • #1782
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    david75 wrote: »
    Used as a pawn??
    Want to talk about pawns? Pro life campaign rolling out people who claim to have been aborted and survived in buckets left to die but survived? Also rolling out effectively rape babies ‘I would be dead if my mother aborted me’ etc for want of a better term, all the worst kind of extremes and rarities in order to emotionally manipulate the whole debate!
    That’s using people and extremes as pawns.

    FFA happens EVERY DAY. to dismiss any woman’s testimony and strength in sharing her story is really disrespectful and diminishes your point.
    Go through it.
    At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
    That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
    Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.


  • #1783
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    If pro-lifers have a vote to repeal the 8th on their Earth-life score-sheet, they are (mostly) so afraid of the incandescent rage of almighty God who will without a shadow of a doubt (in their strange belief system) slam the gates of heaven in their face and cast them into eternal damnation.

    I am being serious.

    They believe these cases of intense suffering above are God’s will and thus they don’t rest on a pro-lifers conscience (in defending- retain the 8th). They see themselves as the good guys here :rolleyes:

    Pure evil madness…
    MmKaaay.


  • #1784
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.

    This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.

    Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.

    You should head over the story again, particularly the last part.
    The one part that actually gave her some comfort was that her family was beside her. She was lucky, how many people in her situation have this chance?
    She is not being used as a pawn, she clearly states her wish at the end of the story, she does not want any other woman to go through what she had to as regards the travel. Don't try to assume you know more about the feelings then she does.


  • #1785
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Go through it.
    At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
    That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
    Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.



    Just wow. Show your hand why don’t you.
    I see the plc being completely blind to the irony and hypocrisy of statements like ‘they’re trying to dehumanise the baby’ yet support forcing women to go through this is utterly inhuman.


  • #1786
    amdublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Go through it.
    At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
    That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
    Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.

    Are you trying to tell me that you think the posters here like david75 only empathise with the travelling part. Are you for real??
    It's the saddest story i cannot imagine what she was feeling and is feeling now. And then having to travel and bringing the coffin with remains back in the car boot being part of her and Luke's story. Awful. It's all awful.

    Can we make that story the teensiest easier by stop being hypocrites and sending our women and health issues abroad. I think it's the empathetic thing to do.

    Repeal the 8th.

    Edit. I'm now done engaging with you as others are too. I find your attitude to women and posters insufferable. Good bye and good luck to you.


  • #1787
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,659 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Go through it.
    At the end of each paragraph ask yourself how much of a difference to the emotional ordeal that she is describing would it have made if the induction was carried out in Dublin.
    That involves actually listening to what she is saying about where her hurt is coming from. The loss of the child in her womb, a child she loves.
    Travel and geography are the bits of her story that really matter to you, not her. Not the way she's telling it, if you'll just listen.

    You can't have read it properly.
    Did you see where she said she assumed she would be offered the choice of induction at the hospital where she was being looked after, and was devastated when told that she couldnt?

    I get the impression you dismiss that as unimportant, but it is crucial. For lots of reasons, I don't even know where to start, if you really can't see how many awful things there are there.

    ”I enjoy cigars, whisky and facing down totalitarians, so am I really Winston Churchill?” (JK Rowling)



  • #1788
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    It’s the disingenuous rearranging of the facts and ignoring others all while trying to undermine someone else’s empathy in order to appear morally superior that I find most offputyibg about the plc and Bertie’s attitudes in this instance.
    It’s baffling and bizarre.


  • #1789
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    They believe these cases of intense suffering above are God’s will and thus they don’t rest on a pro-lifers conscience (in defending- retain the 8th). They see themselves as the good guys here :rolleyes:

    Pure evil madness…

    This has been the problem with these god botherers In Ireland since independence.

    No contraception because it's against gods law. HIV isn't a problem because only gays and drug addicts or those who have loose morals and have premarital sex are at risk and they aren't gods chosen people.

    No divorce because it's against gods law. Better to stay in an unhappy or abusive relationship because you made a poor decision.

    No marriage equality because it's against gods law. What if they want to adopt the bullying the children will suffer, well thats due to the bigitory the no side propagate.

    No abortion because it's against gods law. Better to die having a child that can go on to produce more Christians/Jews/Muslims.
    Well your foetus isn't viable well don't worry you'll be in gods graces again soon enough and can try again.
    Raped by a stranger or family member well you were obviously asking for it and the fetus is gods judgement/chance for you to repent.


  • #1790
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Thanks for that. It was very informative.

    I guess the second last paragraph should be
    "In Ireland in inevitable abortions, because the foetus is still alive, the only treatment choice available is the ‘wait and see’ approach, until the life of the woman is at risk."

    Yes, of course. Typo due typing on phone and not rereading -I’ve edited the original post. Thank you.

    So in this case we're describing a woman who is under medical supervision and for whom the best practice under the 8th amendment would be to intervene to save her life if that became necessary.

    Not quite. We’re describing a case where ‘best practice’ cannot be afforded to a woman because of the 8th.
    The presence or absence of the 8th amendment does not change what is best practice in medical care.
    Of course there is also the major issue of how upsetting and difficult it is for the woman to have to wait in those circumstances. There is no doubt about that but is it enough to merit introducing abortion on demand/ unrestricted access to abortion/ abortion on request/ whatever/ up to twelve weeks and in practice no actual limit?

    Thanks again for the informative post.

    Upsetting, and difficult, and risky.

    Yes. If Irish women having abortions in Ireland that they would have had elsewhere anyway is the ‘price to pay’ so that we can stop unnecessarily putting women’s and children’s lives at risk, then I can fully support that.


  • #1791
    ProfessorPlum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ProfessorPlum


    bertieinexile wrote: »
    Read back over her story again but this time without the blinkers of wanting to see her as a pawn to be used in an argument.

    This time try to empathise with the awful trauma of a mother whose baby, whose child, Luke, is dying. And all of those possibilities and hopes dying with him. And, honestly now, how much of the emotional hardship of this story comes from the induction being performed in Liverpool as opposed to Dublin.

    Try to actualy feel what the major emotional elements of her story are as opposed to cherry picking things that are nearly irrelevant, in order to try to win an argument.

    Read back over her story again, this time without your blinkers and try to see at which point this woman’s awful situation could have been (or was) improved, even if only by a tiny amount.

    The kind hearted man who hugged her.

    The sonographer who wouldn’t take her money.

    Some of her family members being with her while she waited to deliver.

    Not having to travel to a foreign country to deliver her child, and not having to bring his remains back in the boot of her car.


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  • #1792
    It wasnt me123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,785 ✭✭✭It wasnt me123


    I had a client recently state, during a reasonable adult conversation that repeal the 8th would "open the flood gates".

    I couldn't help it I said "are you serious"? I tell you what, you want to control my eggs (long gone by the way) so let me control your sperm. He laughed out loud and could see my point - I said its also about a level playing field. Females don't get pregnant on their own, it takes two so if you want to control my reproductive "bits", lets put it in the Constitution that we'll control your "bits".

    I think he's still laughing but I got my point across. Its about control, not compassion. The Catholic Church is all about control, not compassion.


  • #1793
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    David Quinn showing his and the pro life campaigns true colours
    Unbelievable. Literally

    https://twitter.com/rmcg2799/status/977859809222504448?s=21


  • #1794
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    I was just reading this article - https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/abortion-legislation-to-include-consideration-period-of-up-to-72-hours-36678453.html - and this jumped out at me
    Meanwhile, Irish Catholic bishops said they will "pray earnestly that Ireland will choose life".

    Who has any respect for what Irish Catholic bishops think or pray for anymore?


  • #1795
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    erica74 wrote: »
    I was just reading this article - https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/abortion-referendum/abortion-legislation-to-include-consideration-period-of-up-to-72-hours-36678453.html - and this jumped out at me



    Who has any respect for what Irish Catholic bishops think or pray for anymore?


    You’d be surprised. Then shocked. Then depressed.


  • #1796
    Zerbini Blewitt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭Zerbini Blewitt


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    This has been the problem with these god botherers In Ireland since independence.
    ....

    Yes, agree with all that.

    As we all know, the religious don’t argue religious points on this topic any more, and are quite open about this (btw, I meant to say -of course there are pro-lifers who are not religious at all – that is not in doubt).

    They say “let’s have a reasoned debate” and talk about “right to life” but when a thoughtful reasoned debate takes place and people like Nozz (& others) ask them to explain their justification for such a right…
    ….And if so if any entity is not sentient, never has been sentient, and is a significant and identifiable period of time away from ever being sentient......... then on what rational or philosophical basis are we affording that entity rights or moral and ethical concern?
    they quickly disappear and it’s tumbleweed time (excluding poster Thirdfox, who still may reply to Nozz) but they head off somewhere else and spout the exact same misleading & unsubstantiated slogans that they cannot or will not justify here.

    What an offensive charade the entire pro-life argument is (& the same antics as in ’83)!


  • #1797
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,228 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    erica74 wrote: »
    Ta!
    Still looks good for Repeal at this stage.

    It could look better. Lot of work to do.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #1798
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Zerbini Blewitt wrote: »
    As we all know, the religious don’t argue religious points on this topic any more, and are quite open about this (btw, I meant to say -of course there are pro-lifers who are not religious at all – that is not in doubt).

    I'm not aware of any prolife group that isn't backed by a religious doctrine or group, but I'm open to correction on this.

    If some prolifers are non religious, their stance makes even less sense to me unless they just have a problem with women having some control over their lives.

    I get the whole all life is precious mantra, but it doesn't seem to extend to people once their born.
    I say this based on the attitude of some people I know who are prolife towards abortion and the attitude they have towards the homeless, refugees etc is not plesant and it just doesn't square up. You could also base it on some of the posters here on boards and the same attitudes being aired.


  • #1799
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    amdublin wrote: »

    Edit. I'm now done engaging with you as others are too. I find your attitude to women and posters insufferable. Good bye and good luck to you.
    I feel like I'm talking about amdublin behind his back now
    Obviously there's a referendum coming up with, supposedly, a large number of undecideds waiting to be convinced. I know I shouldn't but I can't help welcoming the fact that amdublin is dealing like this with those who don't share his views. My bad.


  • #1800
    bertieinexile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 299 ✭✭bertieinexile


    volchitsa wrote: »
    You can't have read it properly.
    Did you see where she said she assumed she would be offered the choice of induction at the hospital where she was being looked after, and was devastated when told that she couldnt?

    I get the impression you dismiss that as unimportant, but it is crucial. For lots of reasons, I don't even know where to start, if you really can't see how many awful things there are there.
    She actually said she was devastated when she heard about her child's condition.
    Then there is the point in the story at which she has to give up hope.
    I asked was there even 1% chance and I was told 0% chance of survival. We were brought into a tiny room then.
    I thought they would tell me I would be started or they were going to give me a C section, never in my life did I think they would tell me I have to continue with the pregnancy until he dies inside me or make it to full term, or go to Liverpool to get induced. I just remember standing up and feeling my world turn upside down.
    If you were able to change "Liverpool" above to "Dublin" how much difference would it make to the terrible emotional trauma she has been courageous enough to describe. What does she keep saying is the source of her upset?
    ProfessorPlum wrote:
    Read back over her story again, this time without your blinkers and try to see at which point this woman’s awful situation could have been (or was) improved, even if only by a tiny amount.

    The kind hearted man who hugged her.

    The sonographer who wouldn’t take her money.

    Some of her family members being with her while she waited to deliver.

    Not having to travel to a foreign country to deliver her child, and not having to bring his remains back in the boot of her car.
    What have the first three got to do with travel? And for the last one think about the huge trauma she describes and then ask of what relative importance is it if she has to travel to and from a hospital in Dublin or one in Liverpool.


    The thing I really don't understand about all of the responses above is that you all say you feel great empathy and understanding for a woman who unequivocally and deeply believes that she had a child, a living human being, in her womb. I just don't get how you can then switch on other occasions to talking about the fetus being a clump of cells without any humanity or right to life.


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  • #1801
    erica74
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭erica74


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It could look better. Lot of work to do.

    Definitely.


This discussion has been closed.
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