The return of Colonialism?

4068ac1elhodqr · 25-03-2018 02:11PM

greencap wrote: »

I would like to see north Africa become Europes manufacturing hub.

This would be an economic variant of colonialism in a sense. If north African countries would accept guidance and management they could do well for themselves.
Now there'd be a certain bad taste involved, having foreigners telling you how to get your sht together, but the benefits to those countries would be worth it.

N.Africa could be Europes manufacturing hub, taking Chinas place to an extent.
Yeah us wicked Europeans would be profiting off African labor, but if that could be ignored it would be a win-win for both continents.

Also an economically stable N.Africa could prevent illegal immigrants from crossing the sea to the el-dorado that they seem to have been told Europe is.

Europe already has it's eyes on NA through the Barcelona/Euro Mediterranean Declaration of 1995. Meaning it would like it's fingers in the messy pie that is Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinian Authority, Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Israel.

But as well as economic partnerships, it would likely also have to equate to 'cultural integration'. The only way do secure these territories over the likes of China is to throw cold hard money at it and also open the doors wider, and prepare for further 'enrichment'.

At which point there may be plenty more EU countries considering adding the suffix '-exit' to their new referendums.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 25-03-2018 02:15PM

I don’t buy that foreign companies setting up shop is colonialism. If it is we continue to be colonised.

The_Valeyard · 25-03-2018 02:43PM

I love Colonialism in Civ VI, Stellaris and Crusader Kings 2, but not in real life.

Zebra3 · 25-03-2018 05:53PM

For anyone that wants to know more about what the Belgians did in the Congo, I highly recommend this book.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Leopold's_Ghost

Absolutely incredible book.

Odhinn · 25-03-2018 06:10PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Overall a good thing as it advaned backward lands from the stone age.

So, from not having a central government and access to advanced technology to being enslaved and ordered provide work in a feudal manner, while being excluded from government and profit along racial and sectarian lines is an "advance"

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I'm not excusing any bad and dishourable behaviour carried out by the colonisers in saying that.

Theres nothing wrong with colonialism except colonialism?

Odhinn · 25-03-2018 06:26PM

drillyeye wrote: »

Overall I'd lean slightly toward worse outcome for colonised countries. There were a lot of benefits too, technological and health advancement, transportation infrastructure and whatever, still in use today.

Anything there was put there with the advancement of the colonial power in mind.

drillyeye wrote: »

But it was obviously good for the colonisers, in that it was an opportunity for colonial countries to advance..

In Kenya, the kikuyu tribe was systematically ejected from the highlands to make way for colonists (many of them British officers) growing cash crops. Any produce placed on the market by a black african was penalised in such fashion as to make it unprofitable for them to work for themselves, and to make them cheap labour for the British run plantations. This went on until the 1960's. A native kenyan had to wear an ID like a dog tag hanging from his neck at all times.

I'd recommend
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exterminate-All-Brutes-Darkness-European/dp/1862075085/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340018026&sr=8-1
and on kenya specifically
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1847922945/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521998647&sr=1-1&keywords=britains+gulag

Odhinn · 25-03-2018 06:28PM

biko wrote: »

Some say the huge influx of MENA people into Europe is a new colonization.

Some say lizard folk are our secret rulers. They've more credibility.

drillyeye · 25-03-2018 08:44PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Anything there was put there with the advancement of the colonial power in mind.

In Kenya, the kikuyu tribe was systematically ejected from the highlands to make way for colonists (many of them British officers) growing cash crops. Any produce placed on the market by a black african was penalised in such fashion as to make it unprofitable for them to work for themselves, and to make them cheap labour for the British run plantations. This went on until the 1960's. A native kenyan had to wear an ID like a dog tag hanging from his neck at all times.

I'd recommend
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exterminate-All-Brutes-Darkness-European/dp/1862075085/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340018026&sr=8-1
and on kenya specifically
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Britains-Gulag-Brutal-Empire-Kenya/dp/1847922945/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521998647&sr=1-1&keywords=britains+gulag

So? Do you think facebook set up shop here for the benefit of irish people? Of course not.

Do irish people benefit indirectly? Of course they do.

Yes, there were many naughty things done in the name of profit in the old days. However I am not talking about the past, I am talking about the future.

Is it REALLY a good idea to let china go hell for leather in polluting the world? Or india to be allowed continue as a practical disease factory? Or to allow women suffer needlessly in parts of the middle east? and so on and on and on and on.

Instead of fussing about whether we use plastic bags in the west, womens rights in the west (like to hold open a door or not for them), how are we going to adapt these cultures into our own in the west.......how about we start at the root of the problem?

And in that sense, colonialism, as a matter of positive change, could be an answer.

Needless to say, the USA is a major polluting country in its own way, but we cant do anything about them. Not yet anyway. And business vultures would have to kept in check.

One thing is for sure, hand-wringing about the past is useless, especially when it is used as a means to obstruct proper management of our world. "Whataboutism" is the word, I believe.

drillyeye · 25-03-2018 08:52PM

Odhinn wrote: »

Some say lizard folk are our secret rulers. They've more credibility.

Large amounts of people from vastly different cultures moving en masse into Europe is a fact.

Fact.

"lizard people" is a fictitious thing to laugh at.

So no..... bad fiction doesn't have more credibility than a close interpretation of fact.

peckerhead · 25-03-2018 10:41PM

You high, bro?

Odhinn · 26-03-2018 12:17PM

drillyeye wrote: »

Large amounts of people from vastly different cultures moving en masse into Europe is a fact.

Fact.

.....but terming it an invasion is not. That's a fiction thats not funny at all.

triple nipple · 26-03-2018 12:25PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote:

Can you imagine what the likes of Aus, Africa, USA would be like without the colonisers.

Probably a much nicer place

Odhinn · 26-03-2018 12:30PM

drillyeye wrote: »

So? Do you think facebook set up shop here for the benefit of irish people? Of course not.

Do irish people benefit indirectly? Of course they do.

Yes, there were many naughty things done in the name of profit in the old days. However I am not talking about the past, I am talking about the future.

Racist, sectarian statelets, institutionalised bigotry, theft and violence, ethnic cleansing, genocide.........

drillyeye wrote: »

Is it REALLY a good idea to let china go hell for leather in polluting the world? Or india to be allowed continue as a practical disease factory? Or to allow women suffer needlessly in parts of the middle east? and so on and on and on and on.

Instead of fussing about whether we use plastic bags in the west, womens rights in the west (like to hold open a door or not for them), how are we going to adapt these cultures into our own in the west.......how about we start at the root of the problem?

And in that sense, colonialism, as a matter of positive change, could be an answer.

Colonialism as a humanitarian crusade was the apologists tune in the mid twentieth century. The "Thunderbirds" theory - There was a disaster over there, and we just went over to help. Total bollocks, of course.

drillyeye wrote: »

Needless to say, the USA is a major polluting country in its own way, but we cant do anything about them. Not yet anyway. And business vultures would have to kept in check.

One thing is for sure, hand-wringing about the past is useless, especially when it is used as a means to obstruct proper management of our world. "Whataboutism" is the word, I believe.

China is a nuclear power with a veto in the UNSC. India is a nuclear power, as is Pakistan. Attitudes like yours and bitter experience are perhaps a large part of what drove them to get the bomb above more humdrum domestic infrastructional concerns.

JCX BXC · 26-03-2018 12:48PM

triple nipple wrote: »

Probably a much nicer place

Really? You can confidently say that Australia and the US would have the same prosperity today without having the European originating populations they have today?

Hitman3000 · 26-03-2018 01:10PM

JCX BXC wrote:

Really? You can confidently say that Australia and the US would have the same prosperity today without having the European originating populations they have today?

Read their post again, they used the word 'Probably'.

JCX BXC · 26-03-2018 01:11PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Read their post again, they used the word 'Probably'.

And I disagree, I think it's very obivous they wouldn't be.

Hitman3000 · 26-03-2018 01:33PM

JCX BXC wrote:

And I disagree, I think it's very obivous they wouldn't be.

You think it's very obvious they wouldn't be? Quite a claim to make, i'm sure you can back it up.

Havockk · 26-03-2018 02:29PM

drillyeye wrote: »

So what do you propose to do about the state of nature?

What business of yours is it what kind of culture an indigenous people embrace in their own lands?

Why do you think they should be forced to adopt 'your' culture?

Why do you think they should be forced to become consumers, or labour for foreigners who come and forcibly take their land?

Talk about a walking advertisement for a wasted education. You can't even think for yourself and your opinions are not even your own.

This thread is scary, and depressing. That archaic notions such as colonialism still exist in this day and age are just mind boggling.

JCX BXC · 26-03-2018 04:06PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

You think it's very obvious they wouldn't be? Quite a claim to make, i'm sure you can back it up.

Yet people who agree with your view don't have to?

Poor debating skills really.

Donald Trump · 26-03-2018 04:11PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The Congolese had no concept of time measurement and were wiping their arses with their hands when the Belgians moved in for jaysus sake.

To be fair, that's sounds like a description of people living in Offaly now and you don't see the Belgians trying to colonize them

Donald Trump · 26-03-2018 04:14PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

For anyone that wants to know more about what the Belgians did in the Congo, I highly recommend this book.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Leopold's_Ghost

Absolutely incredible book.

Feck off away outta that with your high-falutin' reading and bukes

Better to hear about it from Damo!

Ragnar Lothbrok · 26-03-2018 04:17PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

All advanced civilistions conquered.

Can you imagine what the likes of Aus, Africa, USA would be like without the colonisers.

The Congolese had no concept of time measurement and were wiping their arses with their hands when the Belgians moved in for jaysus sake.

Yeah, until the Belgians started cutting off their hands.

The Belgians committed atrocities all over their empire, as documented by Roger Casement among others. Better to have no concept of time measurement than to be tortured, raped, starved and murdered, I reckon.

Every coloniser throughout history committed similar atrocities, I'm not saying it was only the Belgians.

Zebra3 · 26-03-2018 04:22PM

Big shout out to all the Daily Fail and Torygraph readers posting in here.

JCX BXC · 26-03-2018 04:23PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

To be fair, that's sounds like a description of people living in Offaly now and you don't see the Belgians trying to colonize them

One could argue that they colonized them in 1973

Timmaay · 26-03-2018 04:33PM

bpmurray wrote: »

OP's concerns about population are perhaps wid of the mark - have a look at this https://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth

Anyone who takes the slightest interest in population or any sort of global development needs to watch this TEDtalk. The basic point raised is that we have good projections on exactly where the population is heading, it will top out 10 to 11billion towards later end of this century, it certainly will not keep exponentially growing like it did in the last century. Back in the 60s people suggested that a world with 4/5billion people was impossible, but here we are 60yrs later, the world certainly has its challenges still but there has been no apocalyptic social breakdown, or resource shortage etc. China has seen unprecedented growth from every angle the last 30yrs, both India and Africa will see similar growth to transform them into global economic giants over the next 30 years also.

screamer · 26-03-2018 04:34PM

Colonialism still goes on, however it is migrants looking to colonise Europe as they want what we have. Whether they are willing to work for it is another question. If not and we are sufficiently colonised Europe will slowly but surely turn into Africa and we'll be the ones seeking refuge elsewhere. Might take a few hundred years but I can see it happening.
The world is totally over populated and mother nature will sort that out with some pandemic or other for sure.

Havockk · 26-03-2018 04:37PM

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

I'm not saying it was only the Belgians.

They were some of the absolute worst in fairness.

Chrongen · 26-03-2018 04:41PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

All advanced civilistions conquered.

Can you imagine what the likes of Aus, Africa, USA would be like without the colonisers.

The Congolese had no concept of time measurement and were wiping their arses with their hands when the Belgians moved in for jaysus sake.

Well they were certainly introduced to the concept of eternity once the Belgians came along as most of them were put to the sword.

Hitman3000 · 26-03-2018 05:53PM

JCX BXC wrote:

Yet people who agree with your view don't have to?

It quite obvious indigenous peoples suffered greaty at the hands of colonists there is plenty of evidence proceeding my posts to back this up. So yes it would be a fair point that if colonisation didn't happen it would have been better for the indigenous populations.

26-03-2018 10:24PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

It quite obvious indigenous peoples suffered greaty at the hands of colonists there is plenty of evidence proceeding my posts to back this up. So yes it would be a fair point that if colonisation didn't happen it would have been better for the indigenous populations.

Really depends on where you're talking about. If we're talking about Ireland, sure. Or the Native American Indians, sure. Or the Aboriginal tribes in Australia. Or the Eskimo tribes.

The indigenous people of Africa, for example, were happily slaughtering & enslaving opposing tribes long before Europeans starting expanding. Same with many of the countries that were colonised in Asia.

And then there are all those non-European nations who did their own forms of colonisation, expansion, etc. Islamic Arab nations didn't hesitate to expand, and dominate the areas around them, or to engage in slavery of Africans. China didn't suddenly appear the size it was when the Europeans encountered them. 56 Ethnic groups of which Han is the clear majority. Those other ethnic groups didn't simply become minorities without a little help from the Han. I could easily go on.

It's quite easy to guestimate that without the emergence of European colonialism, they would have continued slaughtering each other, forcing their own culture on their neighbors etc. Colonialism, in itself was awful, and easily proved as being awful. However, it's worth noting the realities of how other cultures behaved towards each other before the Europeans came along.

The fact is though that European Colonialism didn't invent or develop Imperialism, Colonisation or being nasty ****s. Other cultures were there doing the same before Europeans came along... If it hadn't been a European empire conquering/colonialism, then it would have been another national/ethnic grouping. The weak/fractured are generally dominated by the strong if they cannot remain isolated.

The return of Colonialism?

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